Mytek converter v.s. Digi 002 converter:A/B Test here!

[Zuewi]

Originally Posted by cvtiii

How are virtual instruments effected by the A/D and D/A converters? I use a lot of these (virtuals) in my production so I'm wondering how/if the converters do for those sounds what they do for mics, keyboards, etc. being plugged into the inputs of the digi 002

I'm not 100% sure, but I doesn't think that they effect the vst. Vst Calcutation makes the CPU and it only goes D/A then.
The D/A part would improve the monitoring of course.

It would be a much bigger fact if you send your vsts via D/A to your outboard gear then throu the A/D back again into the Computer.

[cvtiii]

Thanks for the help... I've got another question. It seems that when I bounce a mix using Pro Tools' bounce function the mix gets smaller. If I send all of the tracks in my mix to a new stereo audio track will my mix stay "big?"

I'm thinking of getting the Black Lion Audio upgrade to my 002 console and they said because of the new converters they put in for the upgrade avoiding the Pro Tools bounce function and just recording everything to a new stereo track will get me a bigger-sounding mix.

[severe]

Originally Posted by cvtiii

Thanks for the help... I've got another question. It seems that when I bounce a mix using Pro Tools' bounce function the mix gets smaller. If I send all of the tracks in my mix to a new stereo audio track will my mix stay "big?"

I'm thinking of getting the Black Lion Audio upgrade to my 002 console and they said because of the new converters they put in for the upgrade avoiding the Pro Tools bounce function and just recording everything to a new stereo track will get me a bigger-sounding mix.

cvtiii,

I mean this in a helpful way.. learn to use the search function here. Seriously. I noticed it took a few days to get your question answered when the answer (or at least a huge understanding of how digital audio conversion works) was readily available in other threads.

Also.. try an advanced search on "BTD" or "bounce to disk". You're bound to find a ton of information (including dedicated threads) that you'll find useful.

And welcome to GS.

[cvtiii]

Thanks... I'll start using that. I just joined this site and haven't really looked into all of the specifics of how it works.

[lucasmusic]

Originally Posted by cvtiii

Thanks for the help... I've got another question. It seems that when I bounce a mix using Pro Tools' bounce function the mix gets smaller. If I send all of the tracks in my mix to a new stereo audio track will my mix stay "big?"

I'm thinking of getting the Black Lion Audio upgrade to my 002 console and they said because of the new converters they put in for the upgrade avoiding the Pro Tools bounce function and just recording everything to a new stereo track will get me a bigger-sounding mix.

Hey man, I dont mind answering your question at least from what I've been through starting out. Anyway, If you notice that your mix sounds thin, weak when you bounce to cd in Pro Tools your problem is really the monitors youre using and the D/A section of your 002. They are not presenting what is actually being recorded. Now, a cheap way to fiqure to fix this is to reealllly know your playback setup; try monitoring songs at lower volumes and import reference songs (commercial cd tracks) and listen how they compare to what youre doing. Then youll see that what you actually have "before bouncing in PT" is a small sound. Alot of the big sound comes from high end gear plain and simple. Hardware like 1176, LA2A, Pultec Eq's, Great River, Api preamps. If someone gave you that stuff you would fall out of your chair about your sound. Now, anyway, on to the converters, all the Mytek converter A/D will do is get rid of that "mud" in your mix, or shall I say "remove the pillow" sound from your speakers, This will NOT give you a bigger, or louder mix necessarily. Nor will it make your virtual instruments your using sound that much better. hope this clears things up! best of luck to you!

[cvtiii]

Thanks a lot for the info. Have you heard of Big Lion Audio's upgrade to the 002 console?

[lucasmusic]

Originally Posted by cvtiii

Thanks a lot for the info. Have you heard of Big Lion Audio's upgrade to the 002 console?

Yes, actually I got them a while back to upgrade my pres and clock. Honestly didnt notice a huge difference. Im kinda leary about them myself but maybe if you got the converter upgrade it would at least brighten your mixes up a bit.

[Zuewi]

Kinda funny i noticed that also when i bounce a track with vst instruments or vst effects in the DAW it kinda get's a little smaller.
But I'm thinking that CPU is doing the calculation at bouncing and the Concerter does nothing at the process...so maybe the bouncing algorithm isn't that good...maybe anyone can bring some light into this?

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Zuewi

Kinda funny i noticed that also when i bounce a track with vst instruments or vst effects in the DAW it kinda get's a little smaller.
But I'm thinking that CPU is doing the calculation at bouncing and the Concerter does nothing at the process...so maybe the bouncing algorithm isn't that good...maybe anyone can bring some light into this?

I'm going to refrain on my position regarding the "bounce to disk makes things smaller" idea, but I HIGHLY recommend doing this experiment:

1. Bounce down your mix that you think is getting "smaller"
2. Import that mix back into your session.
3. Invert the polarity of the mix
4. Make sure it's sampled aligned with the original mix and going through it's own separate buss (in other words don't send your bounced track through a buss with a limiter or any other processing that the original un-bounced mix is getting sent through).
5. Listen.

[severe]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

I'm going to refrain on my position regarding the "bounce to disk makes things smaller" idea, but...

1. Bounce down your mix that you think is getting "smaller"

Not sure whether you need to give us your position, norman.

[Zuewi]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

I'm going to refrain on my position regarding the "bounce to disk makes things smaller" idea, but I HIGHLY recommend doing this experiment:

1. Bounce down your mix that you think is getting "smaller"
2. Import that mix back into your session.
3. Invert the polarity of the mix
4. Make sure it's sampled aligned with the original mix and going through it's own separate buss (in other words don't send your bounced track through a buss with a limiter or any other processing that the original un-bounced mix is getting sent through).
5. Listen.

Thanks for the tip bro, haven't considered this for testing the bounce function before...shame on me :D

[tenchijin2]

Make sure when you do the bouncing test that you disable any time based effects (delays, chorus, etc). They will skew the results since they oscillate at a certain rate and different types of bouncing cause the oscillation to shift to a different start point, which leaves audible artifacts when you try to null.

I've done the test. Everyone should before believing 'experts'.

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by severe

Not sure whether you need to give us your position, norman.

LoL. damn.

[Zuewi]

Originally Posted by tenchijin2

I've done the test. Everyone should before believing 'experts'.

And what results did you experience? :)

btw. thanks for the aditional info

[ripper]

Originally Posted by pikapikapi

what kinds of other options are out there similar to the mytek?

havent done a direct comparison but i know the mytek 96 really well as i've had one the past few years... just upgraded to HD2 and a lynx aurora and my mytek....

wow, that lynx sounds GREAT... and for the price?

thought it was definitely in the league of my mytek... maybe there's abit of difference if i a/b'ed them, but like i said, the lynx is definitely up there... at hal the price for the amount of I/O!

[BR Audio]

We did a shoot out a few months ago with full band tracking.
First we did a fusion band than a jazz band.

These were the converters:

Mytek 192
Apoge AD16/DA16
Digi 192
SSL Alpha Link

They were all clocked from the Mytek to preserve consistency.
We just wanted to hear what the actual converters sounded like with the same clock source.
Getting all the converters to talk to protools at the same time was a complete nightmare, but we were able to get all but the SSL running at the same time.

The verdict was unanimous:

Mytek sounded the cleanest. Closest to the actual console sound (API Legacy)
Apogee and SSL were pretty close, with the apogee being a little darker overall.
Digi was descent at low end and high end but a little "confused" on the mid range, where the Mytek really shinned.

Needless to say, the studio bought 3 myteks for their HD rig.

Just wanted to mention it, since Mytek was brought up

take care
Gil

[living sounds]

That test is flawed. In a well designed converter with a good clock you'll inevitably introduce a lot of jitter, compromising the sound, by using an external clock source.

Originally Posted by BR Audio

We did a shoot out a few months ago with full band tracking.
First we did a fusion band than a jazz band.

These were the converters:

Mytek 192
Apoge AD16/DA16
Digi 192
SSL Alpha Link

They were all clocked from the Mytek to preserve consistency.
We just wanted to hear what the actual converters sounded like with the same clock source.
Getting all the converters to talk to protools at the same time was a complete nightmare, but we were able to get all but the SSL running at the same time.

The verdict was unanimous:

Mytek sounded the cleanest. Closest to the actual console sound (API Legacy)
Apogee and SSL were pretty close, with the apogee being a little darker overall.
Digi was descent at low end and high end but a little "confused" on the mid range, where the Mytek really shinned.

Needless to say, the studio bought 3 myteks for their HD rig.

Just wanted to mention it, since Mytek was brought up

take care
Gil

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by lucasmusic

Hey man, I dont mind answering your question at least from what I've been through starting out. Anyway, If you notice that your mix sounds thin, weak when you bounce to cd in Pro Tools your problem is really the monitors youre using and the D/A section of your 002. They are not presenting what is actually being recorded. Now, a cheap way to fiqure to fix this is to reealllly know your playback setup; try monitoring songs at lower volumes and import reference songs (commercial cd tracks) and listen how they compare to what youre doing. Then youll see that what you actually have "before bouncing in PT" is a small sound. Alot of the big sound comes from high end gear plain and simple. Hardware like 1176, LA2A, Pultec Eq's, Great River, Api preamps. If someone gave you that stuff you would fall out of your chair about your sound. Now, anyway, on to the converters, all the Mytek converter A/D will do is get rid of that "mud" in your mix, or shall I say "remove the pillow" sound from your speakers, This will NOT give you a bigger, or louder mix necessarily. Nor will it make your virtual instruments your using sound that much better. hope this clears things up! best of luck to you!

You are correct, there are several problems here. The D/A converters on Protools 002 sound terrible. And as you mentioned, using nice pre's and a good converter will get you a better sound as well, but the bounce to disk option is where another problem exisits.

My experience with 002 has been bad overall summing when it comes to bouncing to disk on PT LE. I have also noticed that is sounds even worse when you insert a master fader in PT.

I have used a Rosetta 800 for tracking using it's eight outs into an API 8200 summing rack mixer for mixdown. The final mix was printed back into PT using the Rosetta for conversion. The overall sound of the converter was way better than the conversion of the 002 and summing through the API was decent, although IMO, not a difference worth $2800. When using PT LE with decent converter, most summing problems can be solved with a good outboard gear mastering house.

My recomendation these days would be to take your PT LE mixes to a studio that has a PT HD/large format console combo and mix there. Even a studio just having PT HD and nice outbaord gear will get you better summing than PT LE. My ther choice would be to buy a nice converter, 16 ch D/A converter and a decent outboard mixer for your PT set-up to avoid summing or bouncing to disk in PT LE all together.

Hope this helps too! Cheers!

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Popbott

My experience with 002 has been bad overall summing when it comes to bouncing to disk on PT LE. I have also noticed that is sounds even worse when you insert a master fader in PT.

Sorry, but this is just not true. Any version of protools purchased in the last 4+ years (even LE) has ample headroom for accurate summing. If you like the sound of analog summing, that's a different story. But liking the sound of analog summing in favor of digital summing does not mean that digital summing is somehow flawed. The Master Fader in PT is ALWAYS inserted - doesn't matter if you see it on the screen or not. I used to own LE and I've done my own test to confirm all of this.

Please follow the test I've outlined in my previous post if you wish to confirm or deny these statements.

[Jaymz]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

The digi clip gave me a bad flashback to my digi002 days... it was so hard to escape that pillowy, boxy top end.

Yarp. The low-end as well, especially in his voice.

[Popbott]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Sorry, but this is just not true. Any version of protools purchased in the last 4+ years (even LE) has ample headroom for accurate summing. If you like the sound of analog summing, that's a different story. But liking the sound of analog summing in favor of digital summing does not mean that digital summing is somehow flawed. The Master Fader in PT is ALWAYS inserted - doesn't matter if you see it on the screen or not. I used to own LE and I've done my own test to confirm all of this.

Please follow the test I've outlined in my previous post if you wish to confirm or deny these statements.

I am not interested in your "test".

I never said it was flawed, I said it sounds bad.

FYI, I have done my own test. I have tested enough mixes on PT LE to know that IMO, after hearing other DAW's in the same league that sound better, sorry, but IMO, now that you mention it, maybe it is flawed.

I'll stick to my original statement to take your tracks out of PT LE for a better sounding mix.

Cheers.

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Popbott

I am not interested in your "test".

I never said it was flawed, I said it sounds bad.

FYI, I have done my own test. I have tested enough mixes on PT LE to know that IMO, after hearing other DAW's in the same league that sound better, sorry, but IMO, now that you mention it, maybe it is flawed.

I'll stick to my original statement to take your tracks out of PT LE for a better sounding mix.

Cheers.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

It's just that there's a difference between subjective opinion and what you can demonstrate empirically. This debate is as old as digital audio itself and gets endlessly recycled in the forums. It makes things confusing, especially for newbies who may worry needlessly over something that, IMO, is of little or no relevance to the end product (i.e. which DAW software system you're using). I hadn't seen the "master fader" anecdote in quite a while so I felt compelled to respond.

Here's a link to a digi white paper that addresses a lot of these common questions/misconceptions regarding digital summing.

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...ixer_26688.pdf

[daillman]

wow...big diff...i wonder if my lucid ad9624 fairs better than the 002 in comparison to the mytek...

[lucey]

No offense here, but what were people expecting in this test? Something else?

The 002 is and always has been crap, and the Mytek is a mastering grade converter, especially the DA side. In our subjective tests it's DA is top of the line, better than Lavry Black or DAC1 or anything from Apogee. It's AD is very nice too, although not on the very tip, top shelf. But of course it sounds way better than the 002!

Thanks for the test, but if you go to the trouble to make files why not have the results be meaningful and informative? To use the ol' car analogy, this thread is showing that a Mercedes SL55 AMG has more power than a Honda Accord.