Waves API 2500 vs API 2500 HW

[raal]

my guess is software too... which of course means it's the hardware.

[luctellier]

Haha funny... 565 plays, 3 replies! Do you have any idea why only 3 person dared to answer? I once made a test here on Gearslutz just to verify a couple of things.. and trust me, some people are going to hate me for this!

I once put online a sample of my songs claiming that the drums during the first 26 seconds were recorded using Neve Portico 5012 preamp and the rest of the song were recorded using Alesis console preamps. Truth is that, the drums were recorded using the Neve preamp during the whole song! But you know what?

Pootkao said that after the first 26 seconds:

"Your cymbals got harsher.
The snare is thinner."

Oldone said:

"Well, sorry to disagree but the sound was dramatically different. The kick lost its width in the track and the low end died on both the kick and the snare. I would say the drums went from 3D to 2D flat. If you can't hear the difference it could be your DA or your monitors are in need of an upgrade. Something changed dramatically on the low end. There is more punch to the kick in the first 26 seconds vs the last. The same with the snare. Where was the mic placement for the bottom snare? That might explain what I am hearing."

Whitepapagold said:

"I definitely preferred the portico drums. It does feel like some thickness is lost after the break but maybe it sounds like that anyway.... "

This thread is located here

I don't want to hurt anybody's feeling but what I truly means is that, I know this forum is called "Gearslutz" but sometimes, I just can't understand why people claim to hear "a so big and huge difference that is worth every penny of this 3000$ investment" when anybody that buys the CD at the end of the day won't notice any difference...or worst, people that claim to hear a big difference when there isn't one at all!

IMHO, at the end of the day, it's not about the gear, it's all about how you use it!

[raal]

Originally Posted by luctellier

some people are going to hate me for this!

i don't hate you luct... i'm pretty used to being wrong.

so is it software or hardware?

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by raal

i don't hate you luct... i'm pretty used to being wrong.

so is it software or hardware?

See, if you're not 100% sure if it's software or hardware, would you pay 2600$ for the real unit?

[raal]

Originally Posted by luctellier

See, if you're not 100% sure if it's software or hardware, would you pay 2600$ for the real unit?

why not? i love plugs, but for tracking hardware rules... and for mixing i love plugs + select hardware. there's no doubt in my mind that good mixes can be achieved ITB, but i dig my hardware, what can i say?

FWIW with the plug i don't feel the need to buy the hardware 2500, but we do have a bunch of hard comps here that aren't going anywhere.

so was it hardware or software?

[jonnypowell]

I'm demo-ing the Waves API 2500 right now, and I have to say I REALLY dig it. Wish I could hear it alongside a real unit to compare though.
I think the API plug sounds a lot better than the Waves SSL comp.

Pretty damn temted to buy it...

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by luctellier

I downloaded the original wave file to make my own test and here's a new wave file. Now compare Lou's file #2 (hardware) with my file and tell me if you guys think I used the hardware or plugin version.

So, this could be a neve?

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by ryanfrith

I think the plugs are useful for this:

1) pre-recorded tracks in a remix where going OTB is not feasible
2) on the mix buss to produce Demos that are close to what the final mix would sound like; to show a client a few different mixes easily before taking the time to go OTB through a real 2500.

Otherwise, I'm just not convinced the Waves plug-in is "good enough" for a final mix, but good for getting really close; but ultimately doing the final mix through the 2500 or better. Anyone want to tell me to "get the 2500, keep/ditch the plugs" or "keep the plugs, get a different comp (like a Portico 5043)"?

All the songs I posted from my band (DelsonDrive) received a lot of good comments on this forum. They were mixed all ITB and I used the Waves API 2500 plugin for the drum buss and the master buss. What I would suggest to anyone is use whatever work best for you (plugin or hardware), as long as it sounds good!

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by raal

why not? i love plugs, but for tracking hardware rules... and for mixing i love plugs + select hardware. there's no doubt in my mind that good mixes can be achieved ITB, but i dig my hardware, what can i say? i'm a slut.

FWIW with the plug i don't feel the need to buy the hardware 2500, but we do have a bunch of hard comps that aren't going anywhere.

so was it hardware or software?

Don't get me wrong! I'm with you on this one... IMHO, if you already bought the Waves API 2500 plugin, I just don't consider buying the hardware version to be a good investement because IMHO the difference is not worth 2600$. That's my 2 cents.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by jonnypowell

I'm demo-ing the Waves API 2500 right now, and I have to say I REALLY dig it. Wish I could hear it alongside a real unit to compare though.
I think the API plug sounds a lot better than the Waves SSL comp.

Pretty damn temted to buy it...

I agree, IMHO, the Waves API 2500 comp is better and more versatile/configurable than the Waves SSL Comp!

[jaffa]

I tried the software plug while I had the hardware on hire a couple of weeks ago and it was chalk and cheese - the hardware was tighter in the bottom end and had more presence and punch. If I'd sat down with just the software I'd have probably thought it was good enough to use, it's only after hearing the hardware that I know the software is not helping the bottom end of my mix, even though the 'character' and sound is similar to the hardware unit.

Basically - ignorance is bliss. If you want to 'think' that you have the API sound with the Waves software for God's sake don't listen to the hardware unit, because it's on another level.

Steve

[luctellier]

FYI, the wave file I uploaded was the hardware version and the 75$ I paid to rent it were worth it! I was SURE everyone was going to tell it was software! What I did is try to null Lou's hardware version. I wasn't able to totally null it due to many factors (converters, console summing, etc).

Now that I had the chance to test the real unit, I just don't consider buying it... I'm buying the ATB Toft 24 next week so we gotta save some money to buy Ramen soups for the next months!

I don't want anybody to get me wrong.. I want to make my opinion crystal clear which is: you CAN achieve great mixes ITB (even better than OTB) but it all depends of how you use your tools (whether it's software or hardware). There's many guys I respect a lot on this forum like s34nsm411 and chymer that mix ITB who posted the best mixes I've ever heard on this forum. This forum is called Gearslutz for a reason, we all LOVE gear! I DO! Although, we should start a new forum called Geekslutz.com!

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by luctellier

FYI, the wave file I uploaded was the hardware version and the 75$ I paid to rent it were worth it! I was SURE everyone was going to tell it was software! What I did is try to null Lou's hardware version. I wasn't able to totally null it due to many factors (converters, console summing, etc).

Now that I had the chance to test the real unit, I just don't consider buying it... I'm buying the ATB Toft 24 next week so we gotta save some money to buy Ramen soups for the next months!

I don't want anybody to get me wrong.. I want to make my opinion crystal clear which is: you CAN achieve great mixes ITB (even better than OTB) but it all depends of how you use your tools (whether it's software or hardware). There's many guys I respect a lot on this forum like s34nsm411 and chymer that mix ITB who posted the best mixes I've ever heard on this forum. This forum is called Gearslutz for a reason, we all LOVE gear! I DO! Although, we should start a new forum called Geekslutz.com!

Cool test. I really did think the file you posted was the software with slightly quicker attack. Listening back I still hear it that way! What converters do you use btw?

I agree that at the end of the day how you use your tools is always the most important thing. Sometimes the difference between hardware and software is truly subtle. Gearslutz is a place we come to discuss those differences past the point of relevancy.

Do you still have the hardware 2500? If so, did you run any of your own mixes through it to listen to the differences?

It would be cool to hear those mixes if you have them.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Cool test. I really did think the file you posted was the software with slightly quicker attack. Listening back I still hear it that way! What converters do you use btw?

I agree that at the end of the day how you use your tools is always the most important thing. Sometimes the difference between hardware and software is truly subtle. Gearslutz is a place we come to discuss those differences past the point of relevancy.

Do you still have the hardware 2500? If so, did you run any of your own mixes through it to listen to the differences?

It would be cool to hear those mixes if you have them.

Hey Norman!

You're dead on bro! "Gearslutz is a place we come to discuss those differences past the point of relevancy"

Yep, I tested my own mixes with the hardware version (that why I rented the unit at first), I'll put them online on Monday (I'm out of town right now). My converters are MOTU 896 and my console is a Alesis X2 (24 channels).

Peace

[raal]

Originally Posted by luctellier

FYI, the wave file I uploaded was the hardware version and the 75$ I paid to rent it were worth it! I was SURE everyone was going to tell it was software! What I did is try to null Lou's hardware version. I wasn't able to totally null it due to many factors (converters, console summing, etc).

thanks for posting luct. cool.

[michael c]

Originally Posted by luctellier

See, if you're not 100% sure if it's software or hardware, would you pay 2600$ for the real unit?

Aren't you still going to have to pony up over 2k for the plug-ins? I realize you get more 'instances' with the plugs but you still have to put out some dough. The plugs are very impressive but you are also in bed with Waves for the life of the use of those plugs...

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by michael c

Aren't you still going to have to pony up over 2k for the plug-ins? I realize you get more 'instances' with the plugs but you still have to put out some dough. The plugs are very impressive but you are also in bed with Waves for the life of the use of those plugs...

I already bought the plugin, that's why I said I wouldn't buy the hardware version because I don't feel that the difference between plugin vs hardware is worth 2600$... but that's my situation. If somebody else has 2600$ to spend and wants to buy a good compressor, the API 2500 is definetly a good choice! I use the plugin on my drum buss and on the master buss. Maybe one day I'll have money to buy the hardware and leave it patched on my master buss...

[lpkyer]

wow I'm really surprised....I still listen to your hw sample vs my hw samples and still can't hear the tight bottom and glue thing. What were the settings you used? Same GR as mine?

Personnaly the ONLY plugin I felt was glueing the 2-bus well was the UAD NEVE 33609. I also rent a Vintech 33609 to compare at the time (a year ago) and once again the hardware sounded better. Same goes with EQs.

Plugins feel like they grab 25% of the signal properly and the other 75% is like a "shade" of the analog artifact and once you add up tracks, it shows.

PS: Congrats on the Toft !!!!!!!!!!! I'm trying to sell my Mackie to get one of those 16 channels in here :P !

[popmann]

I already bought the plugin, that's why I said I wouldn't buy the hardware version because I don't feel that the difference between plugin vs hardware is worth 2600$

But, wouldn't you agreethat most people lisening to a shootout like this want to know which one to buy? Should I spend $1k on the API bundle...or $2500 on a 2500.

I've personally not found the API plug to be useful on the master at all...where the SSL IS like clean butter glue. But, on electric guitar? Holy shiznit.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by lpkyer

wow I'm really surprised....I still listen to your hw sample vs my hw samples and still can't hear the tight bottom and glue thing. What were the settings you used? Same GR as mine?

Personnaly the ONLY plugin I felt was glueing the 2-bus well was the UAD NEVE 33609. I also rent a Vintech 33609 to compare at the time (a year ago) and once again the hardware sounded better. Same goes with EQs.

Plugins feel like they grab 25% of the signal properly and the other 75% is like a "shade" of the analog artifact and once you add up tracks, it shows.

PS: Congrats on the Toft !!!!!!!!!!! I'm trying to sell my Mackie to get one of those 16 channels in here :P !

Hey Lou!

What setting did you use when creating the "MYSTERY FILE TWO"? I'll test again tomorrow with your settings!

LT

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by popmann

But, wouldn't you agreethat most people lisening to a shootout like this want to know which one to buy? Should I spend $1k on the API bundle...or $2500 on a 2500.

I've personally not found the API plug to be useful on the master at all...where the SSL IS like clean butter glue. But, on electric guitar? Holy shiznit.

I mix ITB, so I suggest to other ITB users to get the API bundle (750$) since you can use as many instances as your CPU can handle and also get the 550A 3-Band Equalizer, the 550B 4-Band Equalizer and the 560. I just feel that if you mix ITB, buying the API bundle is better investement than spending 2500$ for the hardware. Think about anything else you could buy with 2500$...

However, I hear the difference between the plugin and the hardware but I just don't feel the difference is worth 2500$. But any gearslutz who has enough money to spend on a new piece of gear, the API 2500 is definetely the compressor I would recommend.

LT

[Audio Hombre]

Originally Posted by jonnypowell

I'm demo-ing the Waves API 2500 right now, and I have to say I REALLY dig it. Wish I could hear it alongside a real unit to compare though.
I think the API plug sounds a lot better than the Waves SSL comp.

Pretty damn temted to buy it...

better? no. different? yes. the api 2500 is fantastic but depending on the material, not a substitute for the ssl comp

i've been tempted to setup a "trick" people scenario too, luc, and i'm sure many others have as well. you're probably not the only guy to have done it either. but in the end i thought it would be very bad form to do so as its cheap, parlor tom foolery

what were trying to prove? that people are wrong, so you could feel right? that's silly.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by duvalle

I did a quick listening test and wanted to share some of my findings:
API 2500 - Hardware versus Software!!
;-)

Please let me point out that this is in no way scientific!!!
- RMS/Peak levels are not matched 100%
- Some Plugin/Hardware settings are not 100% matched (i.e. Tresh/Release!)

That said the whole purpose of this is to show that there is a differents between the plugin and the hardware. And to my ears the differents is not subtle in any way. I truly believe that anybody will hear it - even on your crapy notebook speakers.

The settings on the hardware:

Tresh = +4 / Attack = 3 / Ratio = 4 / Release = Varable .25s
Tone = Hard / Loud / NEW
Output = Make-Up Gain = ON / -> 4

I tried to basicly use exactly the same settings on the plugin.
Only Tresh and Release where different.

To make the test of the plugin more real live i did a blank d/a-a/d conversation
even when using the plugin ...

The Mp3-File contains the original loop, the plugin and the hardware.
All in one file played after each other ...

One last thing:
This is not about "what is better".
I think hardware and plugin are both really fantastic.
This is only about to show that there is a hearable differents.
At least at these settings ... Hard / Loud / NEW

So let me know what you think ....

I clearly hear the difference in your test and the difference is not subtle.

[luctellier]

Originally Posted by Audio Hombre

better? no. different? yes. the api 2500 is fantastic but depending on the material, not a substitute for the ssl comp

True!

Originally Posted by Audio Hombre

I've been tempted to setup a "trick" people scenario too, luc, and i'm sure many others have as well. you're probably not the only guy to have done it either. but in the end i thought it would be very bad form to do so as its cheap, parlor tom foolery

what were trying to prove? that people are wrong, so you could feel right? that's silly.

In the other thread (Neve Preamp), I did that only to prove that sometimes people claim to hear a BIG AND HUGE difference just because of the words NEVE, API or SSL. The difference is sometimes so tiny and subtle but they say it's SO different just to justify the amount of money they have spent for their new toy or to prove that analog will always be better...I call it gear snobbery. It's like saying "go buy this 6000$ camera and your photos will be amazing". I'm sure you know what I mean and many lurkers out there could share my opinion.

Back on our subject, the API 2500, there's a difference between the plug and the hardware, I think we can all hear it and specially in Duvalle's test. The hardware glues better and adds more "smack". I'll buy the hardware version one day for sure but meanwhile, I prefer to rent it if needed 'cause I'm saving money (I'm buying a new console next week). Like I said many times before, that's my "situation and opinion" for the moment!

[Audio Hombre]

fair enough. and i'd never argue for a moment about the gear snobbery that is rampant on gs in general. all this "neve is teh holy grail" rubbish. i've used 3 different neve clones and the differences were so finite, imho, that if i couldn't have totally dug into just using any one of them, i might as stop recording and go busk.

for plugins. aside from a few, none have had the impact on me that the ssl and api bundles have.they're both fantastic. i sure would love to have a real 2500 though for very very aggressive applications. as i said earlier in this thread, plugins still can't do the math fast enough to simulate a -20db gain reduction like the real deal, without sag and artifacts.