Vovox Mic Cable vs Standard Mic Cable spoken-word test (WAV's posted) - you decide!

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

What he said!

I've also got some noticeable increased LF 'boominess' in the Right side sample.

There's enough of a difference in this test to make one think there could be two different mics involved!

This is a fascinating and thoroughly convincing test - it surely makes a mockery of anyone daft enough to suggest that mic cables are not making a really significant difference to sound recordings.
.........

One final point. We all know what kind of difference a small movement of the mic can make. In this kind of test of course a large part of the difference can be put down to mic positioning.

The point of a test like this is that you can listen and judge whether the differences are the kind you might hear from changing the mic position or from upgrading your signal chain.

Andy

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by living sounds

Sure, I'll post the results. But I won't be able to do singe-take-tests as I haven't got matched mics.

Oops, sorry I missed this one until now.

For me, a single-take-test is perfectly acceptable.

If the differences don't survive this kind of test in a way that is still detectable, it's not the kind of difference that is important in this test.

What mic do you have in mind?

Originally Posted by living sounds

What kind of microphones are you building? This sounds interesting!

Acoustic impedance matching microphones - ones which get me very strange looks when I take them through airport security! - details on my site below.

Andy

[Zuewi]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

What he said!
Also, is there any evidence to suggest that cables behave differently at different temperatures and change their characteristics with age too?

You could put one cable in the fritch and one on the heating and then test them quickly and see if there are different results. Well if there are any I would think they are very very little.

Maybe if you cold one cable to -273,15°C (what is impssible by now and in near future too) and then make a test the colder cable would have better results cause it gets a superconductor....just my stupid thoughts, but no one would record like this in anyway! e....

I think more influences belongs to electrical and magnetical fields, maybe put one unshielded cable arround your power supplys and compare it with a shielded one with the same position . :D

[Zuewi]

Btw. what's the best way to get a splitted signal from a single cable to two to make proper tests?

[living sounds]

It will always be impossible as absolute zero is 100 ° higher... :-)

Originally Posted by Zuewi

You could put one cable in the fritch and one on the heating and then test them quickly and see if there are different results. Well if there are any I would think they are very very little.

Maybe if you cold one cable to -373,15°C (what is impssible by now and in near future too) and then make a test the colder cable would have better results cause it gets a superconductor....just my stupid thoughts, but no one would record like this in anyway! e....

I think more influences belongs to electrical and magnetical fields, maybe put one unshielded cable arround your power supplys and compare it with a shielded one with the same position . :D

[living sounds]

Andy,


just listened to the clips on your website. The transient reproduction of your mics is outstanding! Now I'd like to hear what it sounds like with vocals, sung and spoken word!

What converter and preamp do you use BTW?

I'm planning to use my Gefell M71s for my test.

Gregor

[Zuewi]

Originally Posted by living sounds

It will always be impossible as absolute zero is 100 ° higher... :-)

Sorry corrected it

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by living sounds

Andy,

just listened to the clips on your website. The transient reproduction of your mics is outstanding! Now I'd like to hear what it sounds like with vocals, sung and spoken word!

What converter and preamp do you use BTW?

I'm planning to use my Gefell M71s for my test.

Gregor

I look forward to the clips. It will be interesting to see how the Gefells respond.

For all the clips on my site I used the portable (disposable) gear from my workshop: delta1010 converters, tl-audio ivory mic-amps and generic (dirt-cheap) cables.

Of course, I could have rented some 'exotic' outboard but these recording samples are intended to represent the 'worst case' scenario.

If my customers can't make a better recording than this, something is broken.

Also, it serves to demonstrate that fundamental time-domain improvements are easily audible in a 44.1k/16bit CD format (or even mp3).

Andy

[living sounds]

Wow, if you made these samples with just a Delta1010 I'd REALLY like to hear how they sound with good converters! It wouldn't be possible to get one of the mics for testing, would it?

[jbjoubaud]

too bad they're too expensive for me cause I just found out I need them vovox !!

[amfortas2006]

About the Gotham-Vovox discussion earlier:

Ive got Gotham GAC 4/1 mini star-quad cables.

Their politic is making cables that give you what you get from the mike, not influencing the sound, read that in their "about us". And they say that a much pricier cable doesnt have to be better.

Im happy with my cables, they are great, and they wired them custom for me in a most precise way and binded them really nice and called me to check and double check if they are doing what I wrote them to do.

That I find great.

Vovox cables I didnt use. But they also sound really good, altough I cant say from a recording of just voice speaking.

Better? I dunno.

They are all crafted very good, thats important to me, cause that influences the sound.
It is the analogy to having a good analog stage at a recorder.

Does Vinyl sound better then CD and vice-versa? Does a SACD sound better then normal PCM? Is a tube microphone better that a large diaphragm non-tube?

What is better? How do you define better? (from "The Matrix, Morpheous, e!). If better is Vovox then it is only electrical signals interpreted by out brain.

Id say different and also good, and someone likes this, the other one that.

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by living sounds

Wow, if you made these samples with just a Delta1010 I'd REALLY like to hear how they sound with good converters! It wouldn't be possible to get one of the mics for testing, would it?

Yes, knowing the converters used does put the samples into perspective.

Well, send me a PM about the mics....

Andy

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by amfortas2006

About the Gotham-Vovox discussion earlier:

What is better? How do you define better? (from "The Matrix, Morpheous, e!). If better is Vovox then it is only electrical signals interpreted by out brain.

Id say different and also good, and someone likes this, the other one that.

I absolutely agree with you on this.

I think unqualified 'better' discussions should be banned on Gearslutz! 'Better' is far too subjective, especially to the discerning folks here, and especially when differences in high-end audio can be pretty subtle.

I started the thread principally as evidence to support my view that there is a clear and audible difference in the signal carried by each of these cables, not whether cable A is 'better' than cable B. It's unfortunate that folks often (subconsciously or otherwise) turn dispassionate, subjective threads into a combative, qualitative ones.

All this is different from my personal opinion, which in fact I have not chosen to express here yet. I will now: I preferred the sound of the Vovox cable when I did the original test and have been using it ever since. It works well for me and I like it. But I am most certainly not in favour of telling people that it is 'better'!

[amfortas2006]

Anyway, Im doing classical, and am not really sure I would use the Vovox.
They seem a bit sibilant. Could be used good with non-classical music tough I think. Its kinda funky

[Plush]

If you hear a difference in the cables, something in your system is broken.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Plush

If you hear a difference in the cables, something in your system is broken.

Hmm... I'm pretty confident my system isn't broken, so I'm tempted to come back at you with if you can't hear a difference perhaps your system is broken!

With all due respect etc etc

Just out of interest were you able to hear a difference in Andy's test, ie cable X vs no cable at all?

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

Vovox Mic Cable

Standard (Belden/Neutrik) Cable

Maybe it's just me, but I can't tell any substantial difference between the two narations. Perhaps if there were some instruments that covered more of the frequency spectrum. As opposed to just male vocals. Not that my studiophile bx8's are all that great. But if I can't tell a difference there, then no one will notice a difference when driving down the road listening to the radio on stock gear.

Not to say that cables don't make a difference. But I'm just not hearing it on those samples. Not that watching TV while listening to it helps much. I know there is a noticeable difference when I upgraded the cables from my preamp to my soundcard. At least in transient detail. But it still sounds basically the same.

[Zuewi]

The better your equipment gets, the better you can hear the difference of the cables what are hooked up with your gear.

[James Lehmann]

Links fixed!

[laboso]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

i prefer the regular. vovox is too 'hyped' in the highs for me. more clear but less natural/relaxing.

don't kill me.

my opinion.. thumbsup

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

There have been a few more threads about cables recently full of theoretical speculation and conjecture but entirely devoid of substance; it seemed like a good time to start another from the more sensible base of hard auditory evidence, which is surely the soundest route to swaying denizens of a Forum like this.

It would seem difficult to record and post the results of speaker and mains cable listening tests on an Internet Forum, but mic cable surely is something that can be tested, recorded and results posted for 3rd party evaluation...

So here is a realworld spoken-word test I ran a couple of years back between two different mic cables of the same length. (Inevitably I've upgraded my gear a bit since then so at some point I aim to re-run the test in a RealTraps treated space and utilising a Pauli Superscreen popshield; watch this space.)

Vovox Mic Cable

Standard (Belden/Neutrik) Cable

Is there a difference?
For once, because I have posted WAV's you can decide for yourself, rather than speculating one way or the other!
I know what my ears tell me!

Do the wave-forms cancel out?
I dunno - seems pointless to even examine this when the sonic differences (at least to my ears) are so apparent, but feel free to try it and report back!

Why didn't you make this test blind and ask folks to choose?
Because it's irrelevant which one you 'prefer'; for the purposes of this argument the only interest is in establishing whether or not there is a sonic difference between the two WAV's.

Can we trust you not to have messed with the files?
I have no connection [haha!] or financial interest in Belden, Neutrik, Vovox or any of the other cable/equipment-makers here. I'm just a regular Gearslut like you are. I have absolutely nothing to gain from posting the results of my test, so why on earth would I bother skewing it?

Do you honestly expect this to be the last word on this?
Of course not - I'm not that naive, this is Gearslutz after all and we're all here to exchange views and share expertise! However, I'm an empiricist so I'm firmly of the view that if at all possible, in audio as in anything, it's very helpful to provide evidence to back up one's POV. So with respect to this thread it's now quite reasonable to ask anyone wishing to discredit my opinion (ie that there is a difference) to do so either in reference to the WAV's I've provided or to ante up WAV's of their own test.

Testing equipment was as follows:
Mics: Matched pair of Microtech Gefell M300 SDC's
Pre-amps & Conversion: Metric Halo ULN-2
DAW: Logic 7
Format: 24-bit/44.1k WAVs
Processing/Normalising etc: None
Room Type: Living room, ie no special acoustic treatment
Pop shield: I honestly don't recall if I used one or not, I think not but if I did it's a Sennheiser
Tracking Cans: Sony MDR-7509
Other information: Did I swap around the mics and rerun the test? Yes. Did I swap around the pre-amp channels and rerun the test? Yes. Were the results and sonic differences pretty much identical and thus attributable to the principal variable of swapping the cable? Yes.

There's a HUGE difference, I was not really expecting to hear such a big gap. BTW I like the "normal" cable way better, speaking of preamps sounds like a Neve vs Mackie comparison to me (if that makes any sense), all those highs make the sound harsh and annoying. But that's just me...maybe...or maybe not!

[World Studios]

I like hi-fi smiley curve eq! I prefer the vovox. It seems to me, that even if there is a lot more hi end on the vovox, it still is not more sibilant, meaning the added treble is linear at least.

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by World Studios

I like hi-fi smiley curve eq! I prefer the vovox. It seems to me, that even if there is a lot more hi end on the vovox, it still is not more sibilant, meaning the added treble is linear at least.

I would imagine that in the case of 'smiley curve eq', your listening level will have a strong influence on preference, according to equal loudness effects.

Applying an EQ to the 'normal cable' version will most likely achieve a similar result, but the S/N difference (if any) will be of interest.

In any case, these days I usually mount the mic-amp up on the mic-stand and use minimal 1.5ft mic-cables.

Andy

[MarsBot]

This thread is just great. I'm so sick of the "scientists" who value dogma over experience and use it to beat the rest of us "listeners" over the head. The various wave files you guys have posted are EXACTLY the kind of differences that I hear when I switch from generic cables to the good ones (Mogami so far, but I'll soon be trying vovox). It's great to hear the differences laid out in this undeniable fashion. And as we've long suspected, some of the "scientists" admit that they can't hear these obvious differences.

Here's something else for the nay-sayers to consider: these differences are cumulative so that when you have many tracks recorded with good cable, you'll have an overall better recording.

I'm inspired. There are others areas in computer recording where you can achieve similar improvements by doing things the "scientists" claim have no effect. I'm going to work up some files and post them as James did. Awesome.

[TimmyP1955]

The standard sounds much better. The fancy one has a "suck-out" somewhere in the upper midrange. It sounds like some of the fancy hi-fi cables I've had the displeasure of listening to.

[Audiop]

I have not listened to the clips but just want to make a note. Andys mic's are dynamic and as such they have a much higher impedance/inductance than a condenser. This makes them much more "interactive" with the cable capacitance. Electric guitars are influenced by the cable the same way but even more so due to really high impedance.

Science is still our friend!


/Peter

[haryy]

I really like the vovox through my sony mdr-7509. I can hear the ambience better and the sound is more in your face. Really interesting. a lot of people confuse clarity with harshness.

Do the cables have the same plugs?
And what vovox model is that one?

Thanks in advance.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by haryy

Do the cables have the same plugs?
And what vovox model is that one?

Both cables are made up with Neutrik XLR's.

Sorry, I don't know which model Vovox it is - I got the cable free with my Brauner Phantom AE microphone.

[CPTenorII]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

Then you need to ask Dirk Brauner why he ships his microphones with Vovox cables, because that's where I got mine from - it was included with my Phantom AE.

Besides, I did the test for my own interest and posted the results in case it was interesting for anyone else. I'm not telling anyone to buy Vovox - if Gotham works for you that's cool.

But what I am fed up with is threads about cables in which folks rail away for or against without supplying a shred of evidence in either direction. With something like speaker cable I accept that presenting recorded evidence is difficult, but with microphone cable it certainly isn't. I would suggest that anyone who wishes to contest the view that there is a marked difference in sound between microphone cables will need to provide evidence of the sort I have before they are taken remotely seriously.

I hear a difference between these files. It seems to me that the vovox is cleaner, but also passes much more high end. There's a lot more "-esh" and sibilance.

I am not sure which cable is more accurate because there is no basis of comparison. If the Vovox is better, then it is expressing more of the mic's bad sound. If the vovox is worse, it is non-linear, etc.

Regardless, they are definitely different to my ears.

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by CPTenorII

I am not sure which cable is more accurate because there is no basis of comparison.

Very true. Normally a tester might be able to express a preference in terms of accuracy to the original signal, ie by putting your ears where the mics are. But in this case it's extremely difficult even for me (the only one who knows what the original sounds like) to make a judgement either way because the subject of the test is my own voice and obviously I cannot tell what I sound like from the microphone position!

All the more reason why folks should view this as a differential test rather than a preferential one!