Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Please do!

MJ? Back from the dead? Again???

OK. Will do. I'll probably make a new thread and link to it here on this one to keep things "clean". As soon as I finish off 3 CD's I'm in the middle of.....

[fragchamp]

So as has been noted already, as a comparison this is really only useful between the 205 and the 4038, because the R92 was not positioned similarly.

It seems opinions split between the two. My favorite was pretty clearly the 4038. Contrary to DrBill's perception, I don't hear congestion. I just hear a more dynamic and natural sound.

Thanks DrBill for your thread. Your miking technique is interesting. I want some fig 8s now!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by fragchamp

So as has been noted already, as a comparison this is really only useful between the 205 and the 4038, because the R92 was not positioned similarly.

thumbsup

Originally Posted by fragchamp

It seems opinions split between the two. My favorite was pretty clearly the 4038. Contrary to DrBill's perception, I don't hear congestion. I just hear a more dynamic and natural sound.

The 4038's are beautiful mics, no doubt about it. It's difficult to tell from listening to short clips, but when the piano gets "busy" as is often the case with Jeff playing, the 4038's just get difficult for me to listen to for long periods of time due to the "congestion" I mentioned. That's where the 205's trump the 4038's IMO. For delicate, and more "open" sections of piano, the 4038's are very difficult to top. They are beautiful on those types of passages.

On my most recent recording of Jeff, I ended up using both 205's and 4038's together. 70% 205's and 30% 4038's. I got them phase coherent and it was killer.

Originally Posted by fragchamp

Thanks DrBill for your thread. Your miking technique is interesting. I want some fig 8s now!

You're welcome. Yeah man, you gotta get fig 8's. Fig 8 mics (Ribbons AND LDC's) are quickly becoming my go to mics for a variety of reasons.

[Spyrow]

OMG, what a beautiful recording. I didn't know Jeff but he is superb.

I have to reckon I would have probably chosen the Coles over the Apex when I listened yesterday with cheap in-ears, but based on the clips... I really like how the Coles shines in those transients, when Jeff does quick sweeps in the higher registries. Beautiful. But I do love the bass of the Apex, wow, I love when he plays those low notes alone and the low string resonate... beautiful man.

With a long listen... I don't know, maybe you are right and Apex are more enjoyable for a whole album. I've been listening the album in the Spotify and it sounds amazing.

I love the stereo too. I'm fan of this recording and I'll probably be buying two Apex myself And I'll give a try to your technique. I repeat, beautiful stereo, so enjoyable. Thanks for such informative and interesting posts.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Spyrow

OMG, what a beautiful recording. I didn't know Jeff but he is superb.

I have to reckon I would have probably chosen the Coles over the Apex when I listened yesterday with cheap in-ears, but based on the clips... I really like how the Coles shines in those transients, when Jeff does quick sweeps in the higher registries. Beautiful. But I do love the bass of the Apex, wow, I love when he plays those low notes alone and the low string resonate... beautiful man.

With a long listen... I don't know, maybe you are right and Apex are more enjoyable for a whole album. I've been listening the album in the Spotify and it sounds amazing.

I love the stereo too. I'm fan of this recording and I'll probably be buying two Apex myself And I'll give a try to your technique. I repeat, beautiful stereo, so enjoyable. Thanks for such informative and interesting posts.

hey man, thanks for the kind words.

All I can say is that after doing a lot of sessions with Jeff and the Coles, they (or maybe it's Jeff and his style) just wear on me after an 8 hour session. The modded 205's are more forgiving after a long day. Either work well, but the 205's leave me fresher and less fatigued.

[Bechstein]

Great post, drBill, it's being very helpful and revealing for many people.

Thank you and PM.

[Mantra]

Awesome thread Dr. Bill. I'm in the process of buying the Joly Modded Apexes and this is a reaffirmation of my good decision. I'm also seconds away of closing a killer deal on a D&R Dayner like the one you have. Can't wait to 'Ribbon the Dayner' or is it 'Dayning the ribbons'?

[ez2hear]

I searched this post but could not find the answer ,,,

Dr. Bill .... Which mic do you pan L and which one do you pan R in your special placement of ribbons inside the piano?

Just to verify, which way do you pan the mics when placed outside the piano?

Thanks in advance!!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Mantra

Awesome thread Dr. Bill. I'm in the process of buying the Joly Modded Apexes and this is a reaffirmation of my good decision. I'm also seconds away of closing a killer deal on a D&R Dayner like the one you have. Can't wait to 'Ribbon the Dayner' or is it 'Dayning the ribbons'?

Thanks man. Just to clarify, I don't have a dayner. I have an OrionX and a couple of Visions and in the past, I've owned a Triton and normal Orion (nonX). AND, I have a couple of Joly modded 205's... I think you're really gonna love em. Congrats!!

Originally Posted by ez2hear

I searched this post but could not find the answer ,,,

Dr. Bill .... Which mic do you pan L and which one do you pan R in your special placement of ribbons inside the piano?

Just to verify, which way do you pan the mics when placed outside the piano?

Thanks in advance!!

Hey eztohear - I'm not sure I completely understand your question. The distant room mics are panned from the perspective of the CRM. ie: the one looking at the L side is going L, etc. On the inside, it's really a "pan to taste" thing. There's really no "literal" right way to do it. Whatever suits your esthetic. Hope that helps. If not.....ask again.

[Mantra]

Originally Posted by drBill

Thanks man. Just to clarify, I don't have a dayner. I have an OrionX and a couple of Visions and in the past, I've owned a Triton and normal Orion (nonX). AND, I have a couple of Joly modded 205's... I think you're really gonna love em. Congrats!!

Hey Dr. Bill, I thought I saw a thread in the classifieds section where you were selling a Dayner at a really low price. I guess I was wrong. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to my first set of ribbons

[kerouac]

My ears must be completely against the grain, because my favourite was #3. 1 and 2 were both great as well, but #3 just really captured my attention. Still, for the money those Apex ones are a great buy.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by kerouac

My ears must be completely against the grain, because my favourite was #3. 1 and 2 were both great as well, but #3 just really captured my attention. Still, for the money those Apex ones are a great buy.

Cool. Thanks for the comments. Just goes to show we are all looking for something different, and one man's pick is another man's fail.

[richgilb]

What a lovely stereo image, now how to work this technique on an upright.......also keen to avoid the low keys in the left speaker and the high keys in the right speaker. This sounded great, the highs and lows kind of wash across the stereo image.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by richgilb

What a lovely stereo image, now how to work this technique on an upright.......also keen to avoid the low keys in the left speaker and the high keys in the right speaker. This sounded great, the highs and lows kind of wash across the stereo image.

Thanks for the kind words richgilb! I'm with you on the stereo imaging. Never liked the L to R thing, and this technique mitigates that perfectly IMO.

I've never recorded an upright with this technique, but I wouldn't hesitate to try it for a second. I'd bet it would sound great. I'd open up the lid, and put one fig 8 ribbon just inside or maybe just outside the opening, depending on sound - firing L and R - not at the hammers. Then the second at a good sounding spot on the rear soundboard, firing AT the soundboard. Pan L/R to suit. If you do end up trying that or something similar, let us know how it worked out.

Cheers,

bp

[richgilb]

I might cheat and use a Soundfield on the board...just in case

[roger11]

Hey, Dr. Bill

a very interesting Ribbon Test, really great sounding! Coles were my choice after the first impression, later on the 205 came up to the same level. I got 2 questions:

1) The mics are located so near to dampers. Why do I not hear any pedalling? When I move my mics (Condens) in this position, it´s terribly bumping. I also tested with AEA R88 some weeks ago with my Steinway B, still the same pedal noise.

2) Of course I can buy 2 Apex 205´s here in Europe as well, but they are not upgraded. How important is a Upgrade by M. Joly´s stuff, couldn´t or shouldn´t this be done with every mic? What makes the difference?

And finally, a shootout between 4038 and R84 might be cool. This time in same position ;-)

[drBill]

Originally Posted by roger11

Hey, Dr. Bill

a very interesting Ribbon Test, really great sounding! Coles were my choice after the first impression, later on the 205 came up to the same level.

My arc of observation as well. As much as I love the coles, they tire me out on long sessions with this artist. Too dense in the mids. The 205's open up more for me.

Originally Posted by roger11

I got 2 questions:

1) The mics are located so near to dampers. Why do I not hear any pedalling? When I move my mics (Condens) in this position, it´s terribly bumping. I also tested with AEA R88 some weeks ago with my Steinway B, still the same pedal noise.

Well....I put them there because I'd been successful on a couple albums with the coles in that exact spot - with no excessive damper noise. I can't remember if I did this on the clips or not, but when I mixed this album, I didn't have my subwoofer on, and it bit me in the azz. Had to go back and do some automated HPF sweeps up to clean out a few extremely resonant LF abusive pedal noises. Funny, the 205's go SO low, where the coles don't. The coles were not a problem in the sub bass region, but the 205's pick it all up. So.....with that in mind, I'll probably pull back a touch on the next album.

Originally Posted by roger11

I2) Of course I can buy 2 Apex 205´s here in Europe as well, but they are not upgraded. How important is a Upgrade by M. Joly´s stuff, couldn´t or shouldn´t this be done with every mic? What makes the difference?

And finally, a shootout between 4038 and R84 might be cool. This time in same position ;-)

The MJ upgrade made a huge difference. Turned an "OK" mic into a great mic. Defiinately worth the hassle / money. I think for european clients, he will purchase the mic for you, mod it and send it over.

Good luck.

bp

[roger11]

Many thanks for the quick answer, Bill.

It´s not because of the less money, why I am thinking about a solution with Mod 205´s. Until now I tried me a wolf - as we call it in german - with the expensive Schoeps. Tubes of all kinds as well, nothing really did a warm job.
So, Ribbon Mics might be the solution. Either Royer, AEA, Coles, or a pimped chines ones.
Background: nearside my demos for Synthogy I am still trying to make my Steinway recordings as good as possible

All the best

Volker

[drBill]

Originally Posted by roger11

Many thanks for the quick answer, Bill.

It´s not because of the less money, why I am thinking about a solution with Mod 205´s. Until now I tried me a wolf - as we call it in german - with the expensive Schoeps. Tubes of all kinds as well, nothing really did a warm job.
So, Ribbon Mics might be the solution. Either Royer, AEA, Coles, or a pimped chines ones.
Background: nearside my demos for Synthogy I am still trying to make my Steinway recordings as good as possible

All the best

Volker

Volker - I hear you about the condensers. They don't sound natural to me either. Ribbons are IT for me inside piano from here on out. At least for solo piano or in minimal arrangements where the piano is featured. Rock, OK, maybe condensers. But ribbons are so beautiful sounding, and so warm. None of the strident character of condensers. Get you hands on a pair of ANY fig8 ribbons and give it a go. I'll bet you'll love it, and then you can hone in on exactly what character you're looking for by trying various ribbons. Like I said earlier, if the arrangement is busy or midrange heavy, the Coles get too harmonically dense (for lack of a better term) for me to listen to for long. The MJ 205's really open things up for me, but I'm still looking for the perfect HPFilter for them, as their bottom extends really low, and I love to keep as much of the LF richness as possible. Good luck with your search, and report back on your ribbon progress. Clips would be even better.

Cheers,

bp

[roger11]

Hi Bill,
I finally must say, after listening and listening again to your recordings: Coles seem to have more tranparency and brilliance to me. I will have another try in my studio with 2 Coles and 2 AEA 84 in same position as you did. I will upload clips when I am ready.
We never spoke about styles, which someone likes to record. I try to get a sound for classical and jazz piano. That´s why I still keep my Shoeps for Jazz, in a near position. For classical recordings I hope to get nice results with ribbons.

CU
Volker

[drBill]

Hey Volker - look forward to hearing the clips. Make sure you post them up here, and I'll check back.

Love the hear the AEA 84 in that position, although I wonder if it won't be a little thick in the lower mids, but still, potentially great depending on song.

I'm surprised you hear the coles as more "brilliant" and "transparent". ARe you sure you were on the Coles? I'd describe the 205's that way, and the coles as more "creamy". LOL Words...... Probably semantics but I don't hear them that way at all. But it's all good though. THere's no doubt they are great in that application - as are the 205's - but everyone has a different "sound" in their mind they are searching for.

Look forward to hearing your recordings. I'll check in later.

Best,

bp

[elgrillo]

Hi!

I've really enjoyed this thread! Thinking outside (well, inside) the box.

Just wondering if a single, figure-8 ribbon, with your positioning, would capture the piano well?

Also, how did the lid reflections contribute to the sound?
Wondering if, in a live (low volume) setting, using a single ribbon with the null facing the audience and the hinge would work?

Or aiming the null at the lid.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by elgrillo

Hi!

I've really enjoyed this thread! Thinking outside (well, inside) the box.

Just wondering if a single, figure-8 ribbon, with your positioning, would capture the piano well?

Also, how did the lid reflections contribute to the sound?
Wondering if, in a live (low volume) setting, using a single ribbon with the null facing the audience and the hinge would work?

Or aiming the null at the lid.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Thanks elgrillo - glad you enjoyed the thread. I've never tried the mono approach, but that said, ONE of my mics was - as you say - aiming the null at the lid, up near the hammers. I never listened to that mic in mono, but in stereo it sounds great, and i'm sure it sounds good in mono as well. That's where I'd start looking, but you know what they say - YMMV. Good luck.

bp

[dignittyrecords]

wow! another great and super useful thread. thanks for the listening lessons once again dr. bill. i'm still using my gefell um70's as OH's and my cheapo mxl's on toms because of your drum mic madness thread. myself along with some world class drummers i have recorded have been thrilled with the results.

i preferred mic #1 in this test because of the overall sonic color that it gave the piano. it may have been a lil "boxy" but to my ears it has a very "sweet and unique quality" that i really liked more than mic#2. maybe mic #2 has a well balanced bottom and top that one likes to hear with a piano but i really liked the overall color of mic#1.

lately i have been really digging certain color characteristics in mics that set the instrument apart in a recording. maybe a mic doesn't have the bottom you need or the highs you're looking for, but if it has the right sweetness and sonic color it can be more special and stand out in the recordings. the top and bottom can be tweaked with EQ but the overall sonic color is harder to manufacture. of course this is to my ears only which is the beauty of it all. thanks again!

[kerouac]

I just listened to these again, in my new studio space. I still really liked #3, but #1 was now my favourite. I guess I'll have to try this in a couple more rooms. :D

[drBill]

Originally Posted by dignittyrecords

wow! another great and super useful thread. thanks for the listening lessons once again dr. bill.

Cool man. Glad you enjoyed itl

Originally Posted by dignittyrecords

i'm still using my gefell um70's as OH's and my cheapo mxl's on toms because of your drum mic madness thread. myself along with some world class drummers i have recorded have been thrilled with the results.

That's awesome. I'm still on the Gefell's for my OH mics, although I'm always on hunt for something I like better. It never happens though. The closest contender I've found is the Joly K47H capsulehead mic. It's nice, but not quite as nice as the UM70 or M71's. I've been stuck on the CADs for toms here. But your'e right, the MXL's are absolutely decent for that application. Snare too.....

Originally Posted by dignittyrecords

i preferred mic #1 in this test because of the overall sonic color that it gave the piano. it may have been a lil "boxy" but to my ears it has a very "sweet and unique quality" that i really liked more than mic#2. maybe mic #2 has a well balanced bottom and top that one likes to hear with a piano but i really liked the overall color of mic#1.

That's cool. The coles are great mics, no doubt.

Originally Posted by kerouac

I just listened to these again, in my new studio space. I still really liked #3, but #1 was now my favourite. I guess I'll have to try this in a couple more rooms. :D

[Doug1as]

I enjoyed reading and experiencing your thread very much.

Did you ever swap the relative positions of #1 and #2 as a control? There are so many nodes inside a piano that I've found that even a 32nd of an inch is an audible mic move.