Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons

[Sourceq]

thanks drBill for new stereo microphone ideas . I'm so excited to try this figure8 stereo technique next time i'm recording grand piano. These clips sound the way i've always wanted the grand piano sound like

[danbronson]

I probably won't be recording piano anytime soon unfortunately, but if/when I do, I'll remember that technique! It sounds great!

I preferred the Coles by a very small margin to the 205s, which also sounded great to me. For the price, the modded 205 is the obvious winner. What would the AEAs sound like inside the piano though?

[danbronson]

I'm listening back again and now prefer the softness of the 205. The Coles has a harder sounding midrange and tighter bass, but the 205 just sounds smooth and pleasant in comparison without losing detail (that I notice anyway). They are pretty close though. I think I'll pick up a 205, maybe even mod it myself as a little DIY project.

There is a high pitched ringing going on in all the files that is beginning to drive me nuts. Is that just because they're MP3s?

[Tillmann]

Thanks for doing this comparison. I've gotta say that I think the AEA's are the most consistent and natural to me. The others sound good at certain times and not as good at others depending on the clips and the dynamics, but the AEA's sound very natural and more like you're in the room. That's just due to the fact that they are backed off, yet don't sound like they are a long ways away. The others sound like, well, like you're standing there with your head in the piano, which is where the mics are. The Coles set is my number two and the 205's are number three. Too much low end for me to sound natural for this purpose on the 205's. Too smooth on the attack for me. Made the piano sound less percussive and rounder. Matter of taste. Could be a useful tool though. That mic would sound very nice in front of a bass cab!

[Track 7]

Thanks for such a wonderful test !

[World Studios]

Thanks for the files. I preferred the Coles. They are a bit more open. I am not a big fan of ribbon mics at all for normal sources, but they definitely have their uses for very bright sounds, that end up sounding very thin through an SDC and thin through an LDC... I like a bright, open mic. Just tried the Black Hole. Like it. :-)

[drBill]

Originally Posted by luctellier

The clips Sounds AMAZING! Good job! thumbsup

Thanks man! It's been quite awhile since I checked this thread - I'm glad there are still people digging it. Glad you liked the clips!

Originally Posted by Sourceq

thanks drBill for new stereo microphone ideas. I'm so excited to try this figure8 stereo technique next time i'm recording grand piano. These clips sound the way i've always wanted the grand piano sound like

Awesome!!! Great to hear. It's so good to see people are still enjoying this thread and getting some good recording ideas!!

Originally Posted by danbronson

I probably won't be recording piano anytime soon unfortunately, but if/when I do, I'll remember that technique! It sounds great!

I preferred the Coles by a very small margin to the 205s, which also sounded great to me. For the price, the modded 205 is the obvious winner. What would the AEAs sound like inside the piano though?

thanks Dan! I think the AEA's would sound much better "IN" the piano, but would definitly be "thinner" or more streamlined than either the Coles or 205's. In a rock track, perhaps just the ticket, but for me, not the ticket for solo piano.

Originally Posted by danbronson

I'm listening back again and now prefer the softness of the 205. The Coles has a harder sounding midrange and tighter bass, but the 205 just sounds smooth and pleasant in comparison without losing detail (that I notice anyway). They are pretty close though. I think I'll pick up a 205, maybe even mod it myself as a little DIY project.

Killer!!! I knew you'd come around.... Seriously though, I'm still prefering the 205's - OVERALL - although the Coles definately have some cool magic at certain dynamic levels. I just don't find them preferable in the loud passages.

Originally Posted by Tillmann

Thanks for doing this comparison. I've gotta say that I think the AEA's are the most consistent and natural to me.

Cool Tillmann! You're welcome. Glad you liked the AEA's. Somebody's got too.... (j/k) They are great mics, just not my preference. We all dig something different. That's what I love about recording music! Cheers.....

Originally Posted by Track 7

Thanks for such a wonderful test !

thumbsupthumbsup You're welcome!

Originally Posted by World Studios

Thanks for the files. I preferred the Coles. They are a bit more open.

You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed the shootout!!!

bp

[Jimr]

Hello DrBill.
I recently purchased an Apex 205 after reading the online article about the
Apex/Coles 4038 shootout.
I am a jazz trumpet player living in the New York City area and I do a
lot of recording in a variety of settings. Usually I try to get the
warmest, fattest sound I can, and for me the Coles has always been my
favorite by far, it's just that the price is a little prohibitive.
I am now getting into some home recording, so I have two questions for
you:

1. As a trumpet player, is the mod to the 205 necessary and/ or
desirable?

2. (Completely unrelated) Recently I did a session with a Coles and at
the end of the date, I was playing flugelhorn on a ballad and all of a
sudden there was an octave below what I played in the head phones and
ON THE TAPE! Some engineer friends tell me it could have been a
problem with the ribbon, and that the track is basically a write-off .
Have you heard of anything like this, and do you think there might be
a way to salvage the track?

Many thanks for your time,
Jim

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jimr

Hello DrBill.
I recently purchased an Apex 205 after reading the online article about the
Apex/Coles 4038 shootout.
I am a jazz trumpet player living in the New York City area and I do a
lot of recording in a variety of settings. Usually I try to get the
warmest, fattest sound I can, and for me the Coles has always been my
favorite by far, it's just that the price is a little prohibitive.
I am now getting into some home recording, so I have two questions for
you:

1. As a trumpet player, is the mod to the 205 necessary and/ or
desirable?

2. (Completely unrelated) Recently I did a session with a Coles and at
the end of the date, I was playing flugelhorn on a ballad and all of a
sudden there was an octave below what I played in the head phones and
ON THE TAPE! Some engineer friends tell me it could have been a
problem with the ribbon, and that the track is basically a write-off .
Have you heard of anything like this, and do you think there might be
a way to salvage the track?

Many thanks for your time,
Jim

Hi Jim!

I do think that the 205 is a good tpt mic, although I'd hazard to guess that the 4038 MIGHT edge it out a bit due to it's more midrange approach. The 205 has a more open top end that may or may not be what your'e looking for. Certainly the coles is a great mic for what you describe as the "warmest, fattest sound I can".

Somewhere in this shootout is a clip I did of trumpet section (doubled up with one player) on the 205.

I'd say - yes, the mods to the 205 are definatly worth it. That said, sometimes low tech is better. Try the mic as is right now and see if you like it. If there's anything you don't like, then I'd send it off to michael joly and tell him your exact application and ask him to tune it specifically for your uses. There's a possibility he might suggest a fathead for your application. It's a more mid-rangey sound.

Anyway, the modded 205 works great on tpt. I wouldn't hesitate to use it there for one moment.

An octave lower huh??? Bizzare. I'm not quite sure I know what you're talking about. The ribbon couldn't possibly transpose the horn down, but maybe it's floppy loose and accentuating all the lower frequencies of the horn. I'd ask MJ about that as well. If it sounds like that "on tape" I'm afraid what you hear is what you got. Unless there is some playback or processing anomoly going on.

I think the mods are roughly around $250 or so and definately worth it IMO.

Good luck!

bp

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Jimr

Hello DrBill.
I recently purchased an Apex 205 after reading the online article about the
Apex/Coles 4038 shootout.
I am a jazz trumpet player living in the New York City area and I do a
lot of recording in a variety of settings. Usually I try to get the
warmest, fattest sound I can, and for me the Coles has always been my
favorite by far, it's just that the price is a little prohibitive.
I am now getting into some home recording, so I have two questions for
you:

1. As a trumpet player, is the mod to the 205 necessary and/ or
desirable?

2. (Completely unrelated) Recently I did a session with a Coles and at
the end of the date, I was playing flugelhorn on a ballad and all of a
sudden there was an octave below what I played in the head phones and
ON THE TAPE! Some engineer friends tell me it could have been a
problem with the ribbon, and that the track is basically a write-off .
Have you heard of anything like this, and do you think there might be
a way to salvage the track?

Many thanks for your time,
Jim

haha, sounds to me like the engineer hit something while tracking and isn't admitting fault (or simply doesn't know that it occurred).

There are plenty of pitch altering fx out there and also if recording in digital then there are often simple push button switches for sampling rate and so forth that the engineer might have bumped briefly.

So I'd venture to guess that the issue is a human error of some kind and nothing to worry about in the mic (just yet).

You DO use a nylon or metal wind/pop filter between your horn and the coles, right? :-)

oh, and the track is unsave-able (other than keeping that section in there as an effect). even with really careful and amazingly step-by-step filtering you will change the tone too much if you try to remove the lower octave from that section since it's almost definitely containing upper harmonics that are intertwined with the original tone, making separation impossible.

However if it instead replaced the original (rather than mixed with it in the same take) and is a perfect one octave down replacement in real time then it might be salvageable, but considering it's a ballad and probably an exposed part the tonal change to bring it's sound back up an octave will likely be quite audible when done to just that one section that requires it.

Sorry for the bad news. Give me $5000 and I'll try it though ;-) (just kidding, I wouldn't even try it for free unless I had something to lose by not trying it personally).

Cheers,
Don

[Jimr]

Sorry for the delay, but there is a little update in the mysterious case of the octave on the track with Coles 4038, if anyone is interested.
The engineer was using another mic at the same time, placed right next to the Coles, and when we recently went in to mix, we soloed the OTHER mic and muted the Coles and voila, no more octave.
I am wondering if anyone else has had this same experience and might know the cause.
Very bizarre.
BTW, I don't use a pop filter because I don't like the sound.
It has never been a problem in the past.

[drBill]

Jimr - just saw your update. Weird on the octave. Are you talking about another mic just reproducing a lower octave in it's bandwidth, or the note you played actually being an octave down - like with a harmonizer?

------

Anyway, an overdue update from me as well in regards to ribbons, and my new found love for them. The more I use them, the more I'm leaving condensers and dynamics behind. I mean, I still dig ALL kinds of mics, but ribbons have such a natural "reach out and touch it" realism, that I really seem to be in love with them right now.

I've just finished a bunch of sessions where 95% of the mics I used were ribbons. Drums, Gtrs, Bones, Tpts, WW's, etc. Kind of a 40's burlesque vibe.

I ended up really loving the modded 205's on drums. They brought a lot of personality to the kit and had a "bigger" than life sound, while still sounding retro.

For the brass I ended up with Coles. The players were back a bit, and blowing hard in a big band type of style. The coles were phenomenal on the Bone, and really tamed the high stuff on Tpt. Good call for both. On WW's (Saxes and Clar's) I ended up really digging the RCA 77's. Especially on the Clarinets. WOW! Instant Benny Goodman. I used a R121 on F. Hn, but really, it didn't do much for me. Meh... OK though and I wouldn't mind having one. But I just dig the Coles and 77's better. I wish I'd brought the 205's for room mics on that session, but I made do with some M49's in Blumlein. Very cool as well, but not as dark as I would have preferred.

On solo Harmon Tpt, the Coles or the modded 205's worked great. When I was going more retro, the 4038's did the job. But on another session that was a bit more modern, the 205's on harmon were perhaps the best solo Tpt sound I've ever gotten. The "new-age" tpt artist was floored and has asked me to mark that mic as his personal fav of all time. I had it going thru a neve clone, and it has such a huge bottom on it, that really treats tpts well.

Anyway, these days I find myself first wanting a couple of 77's. They really have that dark, slow sound that says 1940 with no effort at all, and I'm not aware of any mic in production currently that does it quite as well. None of the other ribbons I've tried do it. I don't need it all the time, but it would sure be nice to have a couple for those times when pre 1960 is called for.

When I need the "modern" ribbon sound, the 205's come out. For an "in-between" mid-range sound, the Coles 4038's are a good call.

And I've been the recipient of an unforseen benefit. The use of so many fig-8 mics has brought a lot more of the "room" into the picture. Giving the recordings some personality and lessening the need for a fake "digital" alternative for "space". Very cool.

Anyway, that's my current ribbon update!!!

More ribbons = better recordings!!!

[Empty Planet]

Dr. Bill, I just wanted to say I think these "madness" threads of yours are great.

Always interesting.






Cheers!

[Stiff]

drBill,

Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading your ribbon posts lately. I'm about to do some experimenting myself with ribbons, starting hopefully next month, on all kinds of instruments but mainly guitar (acoustic and electric), vocals, clarinet and flute.

Unfortunately I think 77's will be out of the question

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Empty Planet

Dr. Bill, I just wanted to say I think these "madness" threads of yours are great.

Always interesting.






Cheers!

Originally Posted by Stiff

drBill,

Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading your ribbon posts lately. I'm about to do some experimenting myself with ribbons, starting hopefully next month, on all kinds of instruments but mainly guitar (acoustic and electric), vocals, clarinet and flute.

Unfortunately I think 77's will be out of the question

Thanks guys. I have fun doing them. Well, mostly.....

Yeah, at this point, used 77's that are trashed and the seller doesn't even know if they work are pushing $1500. That's just too much in these economic times. Maybe they will come down, but I have my doubts.....

Oh well. Lots more mics to explore. I'm going to do some mods to my generic China ribbons with the custom transformers from TAB/funkenwork (Oliver). Then I'm going to put Lundhals in my X15 I think. That should take me a lot further down the road ribbon-wise!!

Cheers,

bp

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by drBill

... I'm going to do some mods to my generic China ribbons with the custom transformers from TAB/funkenwork (Oliver)....

Hey Bill, that's adventurous of you. Have you been following the troubleshooting posts for that mod over at PSW?

Yours in thread pimpage, MJ

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Hey Bill, that's adventurous of you. Have you been following the troubleshooting posts for that mod over at PSW?

Yours in thread pimpage, MJ

M - how difficult can it be to just drop a simple transformer in? I haven't seen that thread. Got a link? I THINK I could pull off a simple transformer swap, but then again..... But before that, first I need you to put those Lundhals into my X15. Still waiting on a price. Then of course there's those 219's sitting around waiting for mods...... As for the GB 1200 mods, I've decided it's too deep for me. Not enough electronic / tube knowledge in this cranium. That is unless YOU want to build em for me....... Come on, it would be fun and educational.

[Michael_Joly]

Oh, I was talking about the PC board build and wiring project they've got going. There's pics and troubleshooting Q&A in that thread. Looks like its a 4+ hour project for an experienced soldering iron slinger.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by drBill

I'm going to do some mods to my generic China ribbons with the custom transformers from TAB/funkenwork (Oliver). Then I'm going to put Lundhals in my X15 I think.

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Hey Bill, that's adventurous of you.

Originally Posted by drBill

M - how difficult can it be to just drop a simple transformer in?

FYI do-it-yourselfers :

How to Swap a Ribbon Microphone Transformer | recording hacks

thumbsupthumbsup

[Mike Douaire]

Bringing this thread back to the top - just cause it was incredible!

First of all, thanks Bill for this - it really helped me decide which ribbon to go for. After hearing how close the Apex is to the Coles, I HAVE to get a 205 now. And Michael, whatever kind of sorcery you do, dont stop.

I'm not going to go into descriptions here, I think every variation of "Open, smooth, etc" has been used, but I was pretty amazed at the tone (as well as really enjoyed the playing).

Definitely picking up a 205, cant wait to get it. Michael, I'm sending you that 205 and my drummer's 012s (even if he says No!)

Thanks guys, your expertise and help is always much more appreciated than said.

[bee]

Originally Posted by Mozart

I used that technique today, I must say it works pretty well! I have Weinbach 6,1' (Petrof) Instead I tried it with two Royers R-121 and added U67 distant in omni.

Here are some pictures, and mp3's. first Mp3 is from only Royer's and the 2nd one is with U67 in omni. Room is not that big, more like a Piano booth 8x12'. No processing, no reverb...
There is an Apeh 405 on the picture too, I tried that one in the combination with Royers, But U67 sounded a LOT better!
So it is not in the sound clips.

Those Royers sound amazing in these clips. I need try them in this app.

[Michael_Joly]

Look for Dr. Bill to post some new information about "Long ribbon" vs. "short ribbon" mics in the coming days. Here are some teaser images.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Look for Dr. Bill to post some new information about "Long ribbon" vs. "short ribbon" mics in the coming days.

Michael,

I was under impression you have already changed your mind on the use of "short ribbons" term:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4749614-post65.html

Best, M

[dpianomn]

Originally Posted by drBill

Front View

If you look close, you can see that the front mics are firing L and R and NOT up at the lid and down at the strings.

I tried this today with a pair of 121's on a 6' grand. I experimented with different configurations and found that my favorite was to actually reverse the orientation of the front and back mics...front mic (closest to hammers) fires up and down while the back mic goes side to side. It was a hair darker, but it sounded great for this instrument in this room.

I also tried having them BOTH pointing side to side, with Royer label pointing toward the low strings on the front mic and outward on the back mic. This was SUPER mellow and ambient...I will definitely be using these techniques again.

Thanks for sharing Bill!!

[ben_allison]

My preferences here were VERY clear:

First place: #2
Second place: #1
Third place: #3

The R92 just kind sounded flat to me... like it could have been mic'd with anything lying around the studio.

The Coles was not bad. I could hear more "into" the piano.

But the 205 was far and away better, to me. The hammers were more distinct, and fatter. There was less congestion in the mids and low mids, and the bass seemed to be stronger, without getting bloated.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

My preferences here were VERY clear:

First place: #2
Second place: #1
Third place: #3

The R92 just kind sounded flat to me... like it could have been mic'd with anything lying around the studio.

The Coles was not bad. I could hear more "into" the piano.

But the 205 was far and away better, to me. The hammers were more distinct, and fatter. There was less congestion in the mids and low mids, and the bass seemed to be stronger, without getting bloated.

Hi Ben -

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. For sparce open sounding piano, the Coles are tough to beat. But this particular artist like to "get busy", and the midrange just gets - as you accurately described - too "congested" sounding. Causing me to fatigue fairly quickly. Not as quickly as with condenser mics though......

I recently (couple of months ago) did a Christmas album with Jeff. I ended up using BOTH sets of inside mics. Somehow, I got the phase 99.999999% perfect in placement, and there was no phasieness or punishment in using both sets. I think I used about 65% 205's and 35% 4038's - to help bring out a little more "Christmas warmth". If you want to go to his website, you can hear it there. I think it's purepiano.com. mp3's to listen to, but they probably sound like crap.

Anyway, like I said, 205's first, but if unavailable, I could live just fine with the Coles.


OK. Now, you are two thirds done. Your last quest in the Mic Madness Triumvirate is "Mic Mod Madness" vocal thread. Veteran German Classics vs. Cheap Modded Chinese Mics!!!!! Go here, log in, listen and leave your thoughts, and you have successfully completed the Trilogy and will receive your certificate in 6-8 weeks.


***Mic-Mod Madness!!!***


This is a good one. Lots of drama and upset people.............including (argueably) the worlds most long standing and authoritative mic modder.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by drBill

I think I used about 65% 205's and 35% 4038's - to help bring out a little more "Christmas warmth".

Nice! Hah, Christmas warmth!

Posting now...

[PDC]

Very nice thread. Thanks drbill.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by PDC

Very nice thread. Thanks drbill.

you bet PDC! Glad you enjoyed it.

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Look for Dr. Bill to post some new information about "Long ribbon" vs. "short ribbon" mics in the coming days. Here are some teaser images.

Oh yeah....... I forgot to post my thoughts on the long vs. short ribbons. I tested out modded 205 vs. modded RSM5 on guitar cabinets in a wide variety of tones / amps / guitars....

Although the 205 is still my favorite if I had to choose only one, for most aggressive amp sounds, I prefered the RSM5/Fathead style ribbon. For jazzier or clean sounds, the 205 is equal or sometimes prefered, but once the high gain stuff set in, the "short" ribbons took over. My opinion. I may have some clips if anyone is interested..... Post here and I'll try to put them up.

bp

[Michael_Joly]

Please do! I'll never get to it. You must have a half a library of audio from those sessions last year.