How to make money, or how to make MORE money - doing ads & jingles

[Jules]

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[skip bitmin]

Getting half of the money upfront after they have approved
the demo helps. Some times they wont pay for anything until
they have the finished product.Since I dont make enough
money at it to make a living, I do finish it then get payed but
I also have gotten burned several times.

[glitchmusic]

I've done a small amount of work for one production music company in the UK (for TV). I found it one of the most annoying experiences in the business - the guy I was writing for seemed to have little 'musical' sense. Of course, the client should have the final say on the music, but this guy was making me make changes to pieces that were just plain BAD (maybe just because he could) - I was embarrassed to have to put my name to it.

The other problem is that, at the end of the day, the client can just say they don't like what you've done (even after checking the piece at various stages of writing) so 2 weeks' work can just go down the toilet.

Also, if you're working on a royalties basis (as I was) it can take ages to see any ofthe money (a year or more is not uncommon).

Unless you're getting loads of this kind of work it is impossible to eke out a living from it - it can be good for 'beer money' if you also do something else. I've probably painted a fairly gloomy picture but I only have experience of one company.

[ringo.fire]

here are my rules for doing jingles, themes, scores and so on:

1. use stereotypes
2. be devote, you have to illustrate something
3. before starting to work, make a contract what money you get (serious partners will insist in contracts anyway)


what helps to make money at the end:

1. be prepared- have a musical scetchbook, save every cool little thing you create while playing around in it. file under: emotion, thrill, fun etc.
you will be paid per minute delivered music, no studiorate

2. have partners- its better to work with an agency, producer, creative. he/she can translate between artist and customer and take some financial risk

3. dont work only for royalities. insist in a buy out, except you score startrack or you can afford working for free...

4. try do get your demos payed. serious producers or TV stations pay (a little money) for layouts

does not sound edifying...I know, but in relation to the whole budget of an advertisement/tv program/film etc. the amount of money they spent in music and sound is kind of small. that means they can easily replace you but on the other hand they have money to pay for your work!

[mersisblue]

how do you find companies looking for jingles ?

[ringo.fire]

the companies have to find you, its hard to get jobs by sending demos. a good base for starting a jingle business is a job at a radiostation.

I started as a composer. i did the music for a TV soap. My client was a production company.they worked together with a postproduction-company. i did some sounddesign for them, some Cinema ads too, then the client wanted sounds for a radiojingle- and woops you are in the jingle business... its basically mouth to mouth propaganda.

[Prickstein]

Originally posted by ringo.fire
the companies have to find you, its hard to get jobs by sending demos. a good base for starting a jingle business is a job at a radiostation.

I'll second that!

I work at a high profile jingle company and was "found" by them. They knew of me through my work at the local radio station which I also got lucky getting a job at. (My flatmate at the time was the morning crew announcer, we did some parodies at home and I got invited on board.)

First day at the jingle company, I couldn't help but notice the pile of demos lying around from local producers trying to get a foot in the door.

Be a musician/ producer! This is vital. I've always considered myself a musician first and foremost.

A typical job for me starts with a client brief, to which I write a jingle usually based on a lyrical idea. If the client takes the time to fill in the brief properly, it usually writes itself and they're happy.

Then I demo it, usually playing all the instruments myself, run it past the boss, and if I get the go ahead, get the appropriate singer in. Sometimes my vocal is the right one, most times it just serves as a guide.

Then I put on my producer hat and mix 'er up and upload it to the client. If the client is happy, we'll send them the cd's for radio play but NOT BEFORE WE GET PAID!

Working in radio is definately a good way to get your vocal mixing chops up to scratch. Nothing like trying a new slant on EQ on a voiceover and hearing it in every bloody shop you walk into!

Sorry if I strayed off topic. Got carried away. I'm sure Hammer v2 wil have some good thoughts to pass on as well.

[Prickstein]

Originally posted by mersisblue
how do you find companies looking for jingles ?

That's the job of the sales team. That's the advantage of working for a company as opposed to doing it on your own.

[robdarling]

I'm not a musician, I'm an engineer and have wired a lot of studios. At one point I had wired about 11 writer's rooms at a big jingle house here in NYC and had a room there since I was the one who knew how everything worked.

From what I've seen, if you are in a regional market, then radio is the way to get into jingles- even local tv ads are done in a regional center or bought from a national provider and their production habits and budgets tend toward library music.

If you are in a major market- New York, LA, to some extent Chicago- then you work at one of the major houses. Start as an intern and work your way up. In the time I was at JSM, 5 of my assistants, all of them starting as engineers, ended up becoming writers in a matter of a few years, and several of them are out on their own now. You can do it, but you have to be at a big house to make the client contacts. It's not really rocket science, it just takes an understanding of lots of music styles and the idea of what work for hire really means.

[Midlandmorgan]

I started out doing these...made some decent cash for a while.

Then a small series of events occurred:

- Clear Channel includes in house production in their sales pitches
- A couple of "music generator" programs hit the area...just a couple of thrown together loops played so softly the listener does not pick up on the actual content
- Shift in radio spot ads from jingle to just voice over.

When putting together ad spots, its really important I think to provide the final product in several versions: short donut, long donut, with VO, without VO, etc...

Of course, I may be totally wrong.

[robdarling]

midlandmorgan-

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that even radio is mostly canned these days. I have very good friends who own a music library called Videohelper. Their main clients, historically, were the networks and their promo departments, but over the last three years, they've seen a drastic increase in the use of their music for ads and trailers, many of them nationals. The video editors slug their stuff in as the temp tracks, the client likes it, and it never even gets near a jingle writer. If this is happening on nationals, I can only imagine how it goes on regionals and locals.

They also have a disc series called "Noise Generator" that is just beds and musical ambiences, with hits and transitions, that editors use to build musical backgrounds. It has sold a few thousand copies and is probably a big part of the thing as well- license-free musical wallpaper.

best,

r

[Mystr Tiger]

Originally posted by mersisblue
how do you find companies looking for jingles ?

Listen to the radio and find out who is advertizing with:
1) voice only - approach them and explain that a jingle with
their name being sung will improve their ad by providing
name recognition, and will leverage their ad dollars
2) voice-over with non-jingle music bed - approach them and
explain that the generic music should be replaced with
a jingle with their name - same as above
3) jingle that sounds bad - approach them and explain how
you can do a better job - impress upon them how their
advertizing dollars are not achieving full potential and
that a better sounding jingle will improve their image

Generally, these advertizers are already spending dollars to advertize - they are pre-qualified - you can get them to see the wisdom of spending a little more to get a nice jingle to improve their response.

[skip bitmin]

Here's an example of what can happen when doing jingles:
I got a call today about a jingle I finished on friday ,the
client heard it and liked it because it was what he had specified.
It was from a certian era.He played it for some of his staff and
got mixed reactions some liked it but some thought it should
be more modern sounding ( i was asked to make it sound
like it came from a certian time period).Now I am waiting
to see if I have to change it to something completely different
then what I was asked to do.

[Mystr Tiger]

Originally posted by skip bitmin
Here's an example of what can happen when doing jingles:
I got a call today about a jingle I finished on friday ,the
client heard it and liked it because it was what he had specified.
It was from a certian era.He played it for some of his staff and
got mixed reactions some liked it but some thought it should
be more modern sounding ( i was asked to make it sound
like it came from a certian time period).Now I am waiting
to see if I have to change it to something completely different
then what I was asked to do.

Then you have a golden opportunity to make more money - tell than that you can absolutely rework the jingle for an additional style - and for additional money. But, not a lot more money since you already have the music and words written. You can price it fairly and show them how they win and you win. They will have two jingles of the same music and words with two different styles. This adds value to their campaign - allows them to target their ad to a wider audience, or to switch styles back and forth to keep it fresh. You will get more money and additional exposure, and they will recommend you to others for your flexibility, versatility, and fairness.

[skip bitmin]

Originally posted by Mystr Tiger
Then you have a golden opportunity to make more money - tell than that you can absolutely rework the jingle for an additional style - and for additional money. But, not a lot more money since you already have the music and words written. You can price it fairly and show them how they win and you win. They will have two jingles of the same music and words with two different styles. This adds value to their campaign - allows them to target their ad to a wider audience, or to switch styles back and forth to keep it fresh. You will get more money and additional exposure, and they will recommend you to others for your flexibility, versatility, and fairness.

What a great idea, thanks for the advice.

[Mystr Tiger]

Originally posted by skip bitmin
What a great idea, thanks for the advice.

Thanks for the thanks, and let us know how it turns out.

[robdarling]

Um, I'm not sure he wasn't being sarcastic. And, actually, you usually do changes, up to a point, as part of your upfront demo fees. It is part of the gig. Telling someone in the middle of an ad gig that you want more money is a quick way to lose clients. The client pays demo fees up front for the right to jerk you around, and final fees for the music they keep. You keep rights to anything they don't buy. This gives you a library of things you can pass off quickly to other clients with short deadlines. If a client develops a habit of wasting your time, you charge more or don't do business with them. But helping in the the "search process" is part of jingle writing. Good writers are quick and the demo fee is more than adequate.

[Inner Light]

Originally posted by robdarling
Um, I'm not sure he wasn't being sarcastic. And, actually, you usually do changes, up to a point, as part of your upfront demo fees. It is part of the gig. Telling someone in the middle of an ad gig that you want more money is a quick way to lose clients. The client pays demo fees up front for the right to jerk you around, and final fees for the music they keep. You keep rights to anything they don't buy. This gives you a library of things you can pass off quickly to other clients with short deadlines. If a client develops a habit of wasting your time, you charge more or don't do business with them. But helping in the the "search process" is part of jingle writing. Good writers are quick and the demo fee is more than adequate.

this is true. it's happened to me. where clients change and change ideas. so far I've been lucky it hasn't been too bad. I did some station id's for 2 local radio stations. I never knew what to charge etc etc, usually it's been the client who told me what his budget was and i dealt with that.

My question finally is what do you charge as demo costs? how do you figure it out and then still collect money after you've completed the project?

[skip bitmin]

Originally posted by robdarling
Um, I'm not sure he wasn't being sarcastic. And, actually, you usually do changes, up to a point, as part of your upfront demo fees. It is part of the gig. Telling someone in the middle of an ad gig that you want more money is a quick way to lose clients. The client pays demo fees up front for the right to jerk you around, and final fees for the music they keep. You keep rights to anything they don't buy. This gives you a library of things you can pass off quickly to other clients with short deadlines. If a client develops a habit of wasting your time, you charge more or don't do business with them. But helping in the the "search process" is part of jingle writing. Good writers are quick and the demo fee is more than adequate.

I wasn't being sarcastic. Although what you are saying is true
this is a little different, he wanted something specific and after hearing it he wanted to use it. Now he wants something completely different.No demo fees were paid

[Prickstein]

The company I work for has a guarantee that specifies if the work does not meet the clients approval on grounds of lyrical content or musical suitability, we will produce further demos free of charge unless the musical style/ lyric was dictated by the client.

This catches us out a lot of the time and I find it not uncommon to have to demo a jingle 3 maybe 4 times which can be a bummer.

Fortunately, we have multiple writers and the job usually gets passed on to the next writer if we did not kick a goal the first time.
It's hard to be creative when you think you got it right the first time, and usually the client comes back saying they liked the first version after all.