Mixing electronic music for big Soundsystems

[krisstoff]

Please post your tricks and tips for getting that big Club/Sound-system sound.

To get things started...

I find Hi passing everything below 31 hz helps a lot as most system don't reproduce frequencies below that and it helps to lift the level of the mix. I also find that boosting 63Hz on a kick drum seems to give that thud in the chest effect especially when combining it with with a cut somewhere in the 200 - 350hz area, Its all very much dependent on the kick drum itself but for a 909 it works very well . I find the Waves SSL eq really good for this.


Just a few ideas really, they seem to work out for me. let me know what you think

Cheers
Krisstoff

[filoandperi]

Sidechaining bass to the kick is pretty much essential for tightening up the mix/groove. The thing that pisses me off when I get new promos is the horrible overcompression on tracks. This sounds ok at low volumes but turned high in the club sounds like crap! Get your mixdowns sounding great from the start so you only have to 'tickle' it with a 2-bus compressor in mastering.

[Jesse Skeens]

Yes overcompression on the master as well as excessive sidechaining is ruining a lot of tracks.
Have to deal with this when I get mastering projects all the time. Usually it ends up in the artist
having to redo the mixdown.


Too many people are trying to make it sound like their track is in the club/radio1 on their home speakers. Dont do that, let it breathe.

[handojin]

not disagreeing in a negative way.. different strokes for differnt folks sorta deal but i always hate using sidechain compression on bass to let kick through,
to me feels like a bandaid to a problem that can be fixed with eq.
i like my kick and bass to sound together and not move out of the way for the other to speak sort of deal,
so here's how i deal with the matter,

1- most imporantly pick a kick that works good with the bass.. ez enough.
if the sample doesnt sound good to start with move on..

2- eq the problem area's out of the kick only when the bass comes in or vice versa depending on song.. let it boom before the bassline if possible ( hard to notice the lost of bass when the attention is shifted to the bassline)

3- compress less..especially if it is a sampled kick, i
hit it at the source.. need more snap? adsr, not compression, volume? its midi, fix it there.,

if it still doesnt work out maybe something to visit in the actual sequence and not the signal chain.

thats my philosophy many of you might disagree with but works for me, hope some of you might rethink your mixing habits like i have

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by filoandperi

Sidechaining bass to the kick is pretty much essential for tightening up the mix/groove. The thing that pisses me off when I get new promos is the horrible overcompression on tracks. This sounds ok at low volumes but turned high in the club sounds like crap! Get your mixdowns sounding great from the start so you only have to 'tickle' it with a 2-bus compressor in mastering.

Can you discuss how you go about sidechaining?

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by Jesse Skeens

Yes overcompression on the master as well as excessive sidechaining is ruining a lot of tracks.
Have to deal with this when I get mastering projects all the time. Usually it ends up in the artist
having to redo the mixdown.


Too many people are trying to make it sound like their track is in the club/radio1 on their home speakers. Dont do that, let it breathe.

i was listening to the "mashtronic" remix of digweed's "warung beach" vinyl the other day, and at high volumes it sounds monumentally huge, but at low volumes the pumping and breathing (done for effect, no doubt) is really aggravating to the ears - it's like someone's put an LFO on the boost/cut at 12k and is oscillating it between +/- 18dB. all that aside, i think those guys bring great musical sensibility to their remixes and original tracks, however over-the-top their productions may be (not necessarily a bad thing).

i've also noticed that many records that sound great loud really don't have much apparent low end at low volume levels, but that's probably just a monitoring issue. nonetheless, that says something for checking dance mixes at high spl's once in awhile during the mix to make sure you don't end up with bassdrum soup.

[Tantrum The Cat]

Originally Posted by vixapphire

but at low volumes the pumping and breathing (done for effect, no doubt) is really aggravating to the ears - it's like someone's put an LFO on the boost/cut at 12k and is oscillating it between +/- 18dB.

Does anyone else get a little seasick from this kind of thing? I remember hearing Eric Prydz' version of Howard Jones' "Things Can Only Get Better" earlier this year and thinking "how much more of this can people get away with?", but it doesn't seem to be slowing down at all...

[Luko]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Can you discuss how you go about sidechaining?

get the free gate with side chain from here:

www.db-audioware.com

put one on the kick channel, one on the bass channell set the gate on the kick to send, the gate on the bass to recieve - i believe both need to be set to the voice ducking preset

Note: all these switches and modes are marked on the front interface making it very easy

threshold and release times are the most noticeable parameters to adjust

hope that helps

[maks]

in a sampler or ....put a kick on note c1, and a bass sound on c2, i find this could cut alot of guess work when trying to marry these two often complex textures not for musicality now but for their sonic marriage or other surprises, and play/rec both as a chord at 4/4, if they dont sound good stacked chances are theyll be clashing elsewhere in your grid of emotions, eg. no honeymoon. plus its easy and fast to swap either sounds to find good matches, patience here is important.... the combos that sound good, label link them, and store for future use.. if all's good, start sequencing, try not to forget about little sneaky ghost samples/notes/efx to addon, relationships need surprises.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Luko

get the free gate with side chain from here:

www.db-audioware.com

put one on the kick channel, one on the bass channell set the gate on the kick to send, the gate on the bass to recieve - i believe both need to be set to the voice ducking preset

Note: all these switches and modes are marked on the front interface making it very easy

threshold and release times are the most noticeable parameters to adjust

hope that helps

i'll check this out. ty

[Jay Selway]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Can you discuss how you go about sidechaining?

Waves C1 SC works great. Set it up in a group channel in Cubase, use a PF kick send to the left channel and your bass to the right channel. Boom. Sidechained.

[rids]

Originally Posted by Luko

get the free gate with side chain from here:

www.db-audioware.com

put one on the kick channel, one on the bass channell set the gate on the kick to send, the gate on the bass to recieve - i believe both need to be set to the voice ducking preset

Note: all these switches and modes are marked on the front interface making it very easy

threshold and release times are the most noticeable parameters to adjust

hope that helps

You mean the VST plug in pack.?

[bcgood]

Whatever they did to make Daft Punk, Discovery sound the way it sounds. That is one of the sickest sounding albums ever, dance or otherwise.

bcgood

[frans]

In a club it will be loud - so monitor loud when mixing (not all the time, to protect your ears). The Fletcher-Munson curve (you know what that is, do you?) will affect how you balance things at mixdown. If you mix at levels too low, the hihat will end up too loud, for example.

[initself]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Whatever they did to make Daft Punk, Discovery sound the way it sounds. That is one of the sickest sounding albums ever, dance or otherwise.

bcgood

Sample mp3s:

Amazon.com: Discovery: Music: Daft Punk

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Jesse Skeens

Yes overcompression on the master as well as excessive sidechaining is ruining a lot of tracks.
Have to deal with this when I get mastering projects all the time. Usually it ends up in the artist
having to redo the mixdown.


Too many people are trying to make it sound like their track is in the club/radio1 on their home speakers. Dont do that, let it breathe.

thumbsup

[rawdigits]

Originally Posted by maks

in a sampler or ....put a kick on note c1, and a bass sound on c2, i find this could cut alot of guess work when trying to marry these two often complex textures not for musicality now but for their sonic marriage or other surprises, and play/rec both as a chord at 4/4, if they dont sound good stacked chances are theyll be clashing elsewhere in your grid of emotions, eg. no honeymoon. plus its easy and fast to swap either sounds to find good matches, patience here is important.... the combos that sound good, label link them, and store for future use.. if all's good, start sequencing, try not to forget about little sneaky ghost samples/notes/efx to addon, relationships need surprises.

+1 thumbsup

That's what I am ending up doing at first..or trying to do.. give the bassdrum and bassline enough room notewise..ghost notes.. before processing... it takes time but i think in the end it's woth it to have this straight from ground up..

[sexxy]

Originally Posted by frans

In a club it will be loud - so monitor loud when mixing (not all the time, to protect your ears). The Fletcher-Munson curve (you know what that is, do you?) will affect how you balance things at mixdown. If you mix at levels too low, the hihat will end up too loud, for example.

yes at 120dB ears hear near flat, but at 120dB you loose hearing pretty fast

Originally Posted by frans

If you mix at levels too low, the hihat will end up too loud,

unless... you insert 2 "24dB" eqs right before the amp or self-powered speakers, or headphones

i like UREi 537 , they are cheap & have verry good specs "better than most", the only problem with those are, the chip zockets that do not make good contact with the chip, some times some eq band stop working unless i remove the chip and insert them again, im too lazy to iron the chips directly to the pcb board, also the 40Hz transformer could be blown by too much stress (input signal too loud), easy too fix, problem is to get the awg44 protected copper wire, the iron core E3 it easy
or a digital eq like behringer, alesis, laaudio.co.uk, dbx , bss, ashly, klarkteknik, etc..
= you can mix at verry low SPL and achieve great results also
if your Pc noise its lower than 30dB thumbsup

[rawdigits]

Hey sexxy


Tell us a little about your tools here...how you use them and for what .. looks like some mastering stuff..?


Greetsthumbsup

[richardswag]

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

... and thinking "how much more of this can people get away with?", but it doesn't seem to be slowing down at all...

I blame Justice...

[Reptil]

haha lol what's up with all the graphic eqs?

[Ben F]

As others have said, the first part is to get the kick/bass sitting right. Beware of subsonic frequencies (below 60Hz) and only have a boost at 60Hz in either the kick OR the bass, but not both- it will sound like a mess. The 80-120Hz range is critical as well, and be wary that too much in the 150-200Hz range will also congest the low end. High pass filter most other sounds to leave space for the kick and bass- including your reverb and delay returns.

It's mostly about sounds fitting together and compressing together. A compressor on the bass side chain triggered by the kick will work wonders at getting the track to groove along. Same with hats being triggered by the snare. Nothing more boring and lifeless than the same sounds at the same velocity plodding away for 5 minutes...

Lastly just a touch of tube compression in mastering. Nothing comes close. The track will pull together and the RMS level will jump out on a big system. Forget all of the finalizers, multi-band compressors, enhancers...just get the mix right and and a good old fashioned broadband compressor will do the trick. The TC phoenix is my personal favourite. A touch of limiting and you're sweet

And for mixing it's 90dB SPL for the flattest curve. 85dB SPL is considered safe for 8 hours. 120dB will make you deaf very quickly.

[aeonsound]

* check phase relationships... remember a lot of club soundsystems are still mono (or summed mono).

* sidechaining can be very subtle. that huge obvious pumping seasickness-bass has its place, but even a smidgen can really help to integrate kick & bass together... also, try a touch of track delay.

* try to get some time with a big soundsystem... nothing beats actually standing (dancing? ) and listening, particularly if you can A/B with other tracks. once you understand the relationship between what you can achieve in your studio and what you are aiming for then everything should become a bit easier.

* speaking of which, reference reference reference until the cows come home & complain that they're bored of hearing the same two tracks.

* i try not to run anything on the master channel. no compression, no limiter, no nothing... leave it to the MEs.

* don't forget to check your mixes on headphones. not only do a lot of people actually listen to 'club' or dance music through phones, but also on a really good big rig little details will be audible...