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Steal my idea: 3D mix plugin that references stereo pan, gain, and freq. response!!!!
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Myrok
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1st July 2013
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Steal my idea: 3D mix plugin that references stereo pan, gain, and freq. response!!!!

As far as I know this plugin doesn't exist. I really think it could be a home run if developed properly, but I don't anything about that side of it. So what is this plugin?

Concept:

A mixing plugin that displays stereo pan, gain, and frequency response for individual tracks in a mix. The plugin could then easily display masking frequencies and show you where problem spots are in your mix.

How would it work?

I've been pondering over this for awhile and decided to do some very rough sketches... here is how I'm thinking it could work -

X Axis = Stereo Pan

Y Axis = Gain

Z Axis = Frequency Response

So the form of the plugin might look something like a semi-transparent half-cylinder...

Here is a rough scketch of how the form might look -


Obviously very rough, just trying to get the form down. It would be vital that the user could move the persepctive around the half-cylinder much like one does in Maya or Sketch-Up or other 3d programs.

The plugin would then fill the cylinder properly given the channels of audio that you feed into it.

What's important and different, however, is that the signals are seperate on the graph. It could be as simple as a different color for each of your channels.

Other options you could include are the ability to solo / mute channels.

A fully featured plugin like this would be amazing if it would allow you to grab the individual channels and move them around inside the cylinder, changing the placement, EQ, and gain of the channel you are controlling as you move it around.


What do you guys think? Has this been done before? Is it possible? Would you like it as much as I would?
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this won't compute.
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Why not just take each channel (instrument) as a block, a node, in a space, lets say a box that we are looking down at.

Each node has a surrounding radius based off how that node generates sound (from the front, from all sides) .

Instead of a graph to correlate, why not just use actual objects and illustrate the energy around those objects as frequency and directional sound pressure. When you move two objects adjacent, we can see where and how the nodes interact.
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How do you plan on isolating these individual tracks? Sounds like something best done at the DAW level versus trying to somehow un-mix and separate the channels.
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Nugen, iZ Insight + Proximity + ?

Oh wait I'm dumb and can't read, you actually want this to modify individual elements of a mix from a "global" perspective? Can't see that being very good with current tech.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
How do you plan on isolating these individual tracks? Sounds like something best done at the DAW level versus trying to somehow un-mix and separate the channels.
I don't know, that's what I was thinking about. I think you're right, it would need to be a feature implemented into the daw itself rather than a plugin.

As far as I know, there are no meters that can represent gain, frequency, and stereo width of multiple tracks simultaneously, and that would make for an amazing mixing tool.
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I want Alan Howarth's 3D audio room. I've been sketching up plans for a very modified cage version. He is trying to bring a standard to 3D audio.

Myrok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremlin moon View Post
I want Alan Howarth's 3D audio room. I've been sketching up plans for a very modified cage version. He is trying to bring a standard to 3D audio.

Wow that's insane. One Channel per amp, per speaker? Wow. That room must be insanely fun to do sound design projects in, but it doesn't have any real application outside of that until movie theatres deside build entire theatres just like that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antto View Post
this won't compute.
Why not?

I mean, it's really easy to show frequency response or gain or stereo pan, so why would it be so hard to do in a 3d environment with all 3 displayed?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offki View Post
It does. No quite how you imagine it, but it does the same stuff.

NuGen Audio Stereoizer – Stereo Widening Plugin, VST and AU

That's not what I'm talking about at all...

What I'm talking about is really just a 3d meter that displays gain, pan, and frequency response of multiple tracks simultaneously.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrok View Post
I don't know, that's what I was thinking about. I think you're right, it would need to be a feature implemented into the daw itself rather than a plugin.

As far as I know, there are no meters that can represent gain, frequency, and stereo width of multiple tracks simultaneously, and that would make for an amazing mixing tool.
You can do like the console emulation plugins... Have an insert at each channel, and then a "master" plug that communicates with those - like Waves NLS etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optical Lens View Post
You can do like the console emulation plugins... Have an insert at each channel, and then a "master" plug that communicates with those - like Waves NLS etc.

I'm definitely no programmer but that does seem possible. Have the "master" plugin that you drop on the master channel, and have "slave" plugins that you drop on your tracks so that the master knows how to differentiate... that seems like it could actually work...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrok View Post
I'm definitely no programmer but that does seem possible. Have the "master" plugin that you drop on the master channel, and have "slave" plugins that you drop on your tracks so that the master knows how to differentiate... that seems like it could actually work...
It will work This is how the summing plugs work, like Slate VCC etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optical Lens View Post
It will work This is how the summing plugs work, like Slate VCC etc.
So you got any programming friends who want to go 50/50? Haha..
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Let me get it, Myrok. Is it basically a mixer, with a different interface?
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I actually tried to get one of my programmer friends into a business deal ona n idea that would show frequency clashes.. not 3D however.
I like your concept but maybe not n a cylinder, Volume is amplitude isn't it?
Maybe something like a 3d spectrograph built on a stage or studio room a square block then using the node idea.. so you would have waves bouncing say from the drummer in a 3D fashion... colour coded for each track and then you would have a visual of the interrelationships of the frequencies.. its tricky I love the concept..
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Another idea is to host your EQ plugin of choice in these instances on the channels
Then you would need to map automation to the hosted EQ plugins to generic frequency parameters used in the main plug *headache*. It IS possible however, but it would require a lot of programming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post
Let me get it, Myrok. Is it basically a mixer, with a different interface?
Well originally I didn't have plans for it to be able to actually tweak the audio, but rather it would have been just a 3d meter that would adjust as you make adjustments.

However, I thought - if I can see it, wouldn't it be great if I could interract with the individual audio lanes and make adjustments from this interface? If that were to be possible, then yes, it would essentially be a mixer in a 3d digital interface.... which i would love to have.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdland101 View Post
I actually tried to get one of my programmer friends into a business deal ona n idea that would show frequency clashes.. not 3D however.
I like your concept but maybe not n a cylinder, Volume is amplitude isn't it?
Maybe something like a 3d spectrograph built on a stage or studio room a square block then using the node idea.. so you would have waves bouncing say from the drummer in a 3D fashion... colour coded for each track and then you would have a visual of the interrelationships of the frequencies.. its tricky I love the concept..
Yeah I don't think the cylinder is the best option either, but it's hard to accurately portray the stereo field in any other shape but a half-circle.

Another idea for the interface would be to imagine take a spectrum analyzer which already displays freq response and gain, and turn it sideways along an x-axis of pan... like so -



Where each color represents a different track...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrok View Post
Why not?

I mean, it's really easy to show frequency response or gain or stereo pan, so why would it be so hard to do in a 3d environment with all 3 displayed?
just like you proposed above to "turn the freq plot sideways" - this will never work since you will then basically fit a piece of 2D data into 1D (one vertical row of pixels)
your screen can display 2D graphics, it's flat, there's no Z axis

a freq analyzer works because it shows two things, using two axis
you want to fit freq/amplitude/pan AND all of this per channel simultaneously

it will NOT compute

PS: you're welcome to prove me wrong, put together an example image of how it would look like with just one stereo channel
don't get me wrong, you can do all kinds of things and "squeeze" all this data onto the 2D screen, but will it make sense?
after all, i think this is supposed to be a measurement tool, not a fancy visualisation gimmick, right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrok View Post
Yeah I don't think the cylinder is the best option either, but it's hard to accurately portray the stereo field in any other shape but a half-circle.

Another idea for the interface would be to imagine take a spectrum analyzer which already displays freq response and gain, and turn it sideways along an x-axis of pan... like so -



Where each color represents a different track...
Good effort but not exactly what i mean....

im shit on graphics will try and draw it on paper.!!!
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3d model of a soundwave

3d soundwave - YouTube

Now say different colours for each instrument. and in this "room" when you pan and when you eq you can see the clashing wave forms etc... The room could be based with a reverb as well.. and room emulations.

Last edited by Birdland101; 2nd July 2013 at 11:05 AM.. Reason: .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antto View Post
just like you proposed above to "turn the freq plot sideways" - this will never work since you will then basically fit a piece of 2D data into 1D (one vertical row of pixels)
your screen can display 2D graphics, it's flat, there's no Z axis

a freq analyzer works because it shows two things, using two axis
you want to fit freq/amplitude/pan AND all of this per channel simultaneously
This isn't true at all though...

A single audio lane is not just a 2d piece of data if you consider how it behaves in the stereo field. When you add in panning automation, delays, reverbs, chorus, osc widening, and other fx you wind up with a source that has different valus for frequency, pan, and gain.

Imagine a guitar track with a stereo delay and reverb. The frequency response is not consistent across the stereo field. If you can right a program that determines the frequency response across the stereo field, you should be able to display that information in a 3d environment.
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a frequency analyzer (like in your picture) plots on a 2D surface
that's what i said, that applies to when the freq. analyzer displays a single audio signal

now, what many analyzers do to plot both signals (of a stereo channel) simultaneously is to use different colors and blend them together

you're making things even more complicated now, requiring this plugin idea to act as a DAW/host and take over control of the mixing process and automation
and now a 3D display
how futuristic ;]

at the end of the day, you have your audio signals, put a few EQs/reverbs and mix your music
i'm not sure if crowding your brain with so much information will be of any help to make your music sound better than doing it the normal way, with all of the plugins and tools that exist today
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using the ears is out of fashion?

beside the visual bull you have such a thing in any logic channel
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Last edited by Birdland101; 2nd July 2013 at 11:39 AM.. Reason: .
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Say for instance if I add reverb to a source the 3d spectrum analyser would show the change in the source and beep with ambulance sirens and flash red at any clashing frequency! weeeeee oooo weeeeooooo weee oooo! haha
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