What High end gear DOESNT work great on electronic music?

[STF]

Anyone who has access to alot of the nicer "high end" gear want to comment on some stuff that just doesnt work well for electronic styles of music and why not?

[Daddy No]

I'd be really interested in people's views on monitors. I have thought about upgrading (have Genelec 1030s and Adam subwoofer) but stuff I have demoed sounds totally amazing - like better than actually being in the room with a performer if that's possible - on vocals & acoustic stuff, but not actually all that amazingly different on sample tracks I have taken along. I might try some other monitors but a producer friend (who has relaesed about 50 tracks) was over and he just loved the Genelecs.

I'd also love to know on compressors. Big name recording artists often do seem to have at least one very high end compressor, is that something to concentrate on? The 'sounds nicer' factor of having something like that on the mix buss?

Someone is bound to say though it depends what you like things to sound like. I like a bit of warmth/everything to gel, so using a(n Amek) console has made everything sound more how I like it. If I liked analytical clarity, ITB would prob sound 'better'?

[horseface]

Originally Posted by STF

Anyone who has access to alot of the nicer "high end" gear want to comment on some stuff that just doesnt work well for electronic styles of music and why not?

I think that electronic music is such a broad thing that most gear would have a use within one genre or another.



I've got the Duende and the UAD plugins and while they might work nicely for my smooth and 'produced' stuff, they wouldn't work so great on my insanely aggressive arse kicking techno because part of what makes the sound is the bite, nastiness and sometimes 'cheapness' of the gear.

[Reptil]

yeah depending on what the track is supposed to be it is nice to have "raw" or "slick" at your disposal. A good dynamics unit for me is really nice to work with, because you can "finetune" it. ITB is nice because you can automate, and use multiple instances.
I found that using a cheap box (dbx 266xl) can give the desired results, purely judging on dynamics processing, but you have to generally spend more time, because it is not musical in all the settings. And trashing it (slamming it and make it pump) will give you a different tone obviously than using an API 2500. It is essentially not meant to be a studio tool, more for FOH. A nice machine also can give you a specific tone, that wil sound musical. The nice thing about it is that there are a lot of different choices, and so getting something that not many other ppl. use, can give you some uniqueness. The really highend boxes often sound very clean to my ears, and this is nice when you need a tool to really slam it without pumping (or other compression artefacts). Also I've used a focusrite mixmaster with succes, on finished tracks. It offers more control than a single band compressor, and sounds very different to my ears than software multiband. (it gels more) It would be boring IMO if everything starts to sound the same, like happens to some degree with the popularity of Reason software. Everybody using the same "refill" presets and built in software compressor. fück presets.
eq, that is a simular idea. often you get what you pay for though..

The absense of compression artefacts in high quality compressors is sometimes not what you would want. Like trying to use an Atomic Squeezebox to give you a nice pump. LOL but that same machine can be used for lifting some part of the track up, without problems. IMO find out what you want, and then make a choice in gear accordingly. So there is no easy answer. If doing jazzy broken beat is your thing, a highend piece with a nice flattering tone might actually help. If you need a hammer, don't buy a screwdriver.

look at DBX, Symetrix, Drawmer (doesn't have to be the 1968), valley people, urei for dynamics
sometimes a cheap SSL buscomp pops up on ebay.
also check out gates
happy hunting!

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by horseface

I think that electronic music is such a broad thing that most gear would have a use within one genre or another.



I've got the Duende and the UAD plugins and while they might work nicely for my smooth and 'produced' stuff, they wouldn't work so great on my insanely aggressive arse kicking techno because part of what makes the sound is the bite, nastiness and sometimes 'cheapness' of the gear.

a good gabber trick is to overload preamps in a desk to give you that dirty square wave. cheap is better.
mean and low
said it before but gates can do wonders. seriously overlooked nowadays, early techno producers used those a lot
overload a signal, than gate it to make it snappy, often the gate adds an extra click, if you mangle it enough
I'd seriously recommend getting a small modular system, load it with a midi interface, a couple of filters, phaser, and adsr (instead of getting a dedicated gate) to use as a signal processor, apart from the normal synthesizer function.

Horseface, how's the duende treating you? doesn't it have the slam that mofo SSL agressive compression?
This a relative of yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJyNIs9dNE

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Daddy No

...... If I liked analytical clarity, ITB would prob sound 'better'?

a good summing amp will give you actually more clarity than using the ITB summing, a nice middle ground would be "stem mixing", using the converters for drum bus, vocal bus, etc.
check GS for more ideas about this, opinions vary, and there has been a lot of discussion going on about it.

For me a mix of both ITB and outboard gear, with a nice mixer is ideal.
I use ITB on some tracks almost exclusively, and other tracks are only going at the very last moment into the computer. It really depends on what you do.

Important is that you set up a system that actually makes it more easy to produce and finish tracks, instead of making it more difficult and more complicated. Setting up your studio, using patchbays can make a big difference.
Sometimes getting a good tone is a lot of hassle but IMO it is worth it. a compromise.

[Tom VDH]

Just to add to what Reptil said (and that was a lot already! ) it really depends on the tone you're after. A screaming singer will not really benefit from being recorded with a 8000$ vintage U47, a good ol'57 or 58 may be more appropriate.
It really depends on the situation.

If you're after a very clean and punchy low end for instance, it'll be way easier with high end stuff.

The benefit of some more high end units is that they let you dial different tones,some will go from crystal clear to more saturated yet musical territories (most of the time).

It's harder to get that with cheaper boxes because, more often than never, their quality is already compromised (cheaper parts, etc...).
That said, any gear will impart the sound of your tracks, so it's really a matter of knowing what you're after and make it happen with what you have at your disposal.
As usual, my 0,2 cents .

Cheers,

[horseface]

Originally Posted by Reptil

a good gabber trick is to overload preamps in a desk to give you that dirty square wave. cheap is better.
mean and low
said it before but gates can do wonders. seriously overlooked nowadays, early techno producers used those a lot
overload a signal, than gate it to make it snappy, often the gate adds an extra click, if you mangle it enough
I'd seriously recommend getting a small modular system, load it with a midi interface, a couple of filters, phaser, and adsr (instead of getting a dedicated gate) to use as a signal processor, apart from the normal synthesizer function.

Horseface, how's the duende treating you? doesn't it have the slam that mofo SSL agressive compression?
This a relative of yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJyNIs9dNE

I like the Duende lots for soft chart-friendly stuff. It slams in a 'polite' way. Like a gentle slug in the guts. It's not much use for nosebleed, because I like that to slam like an iron bar smashed through the teeth.



Relative of mine? No sir, I don't like it.

[DSMrehearsal]

I bought a virus TI as a workhorse synth, and while I liked the output of the synth it was a little dead - almost a false warm-nes I then thought mmmmmmm took the outputs from the synth and pluged them directly into my vintage TAB V76 pre's then output those into 2 stt1 channels in solid state modes with the gain structurd properly all I can say is WOW the synth now sounds rich and full yet with definition and sparkle that just was not there before. this is now my permanent chain for the virus.
Admittedly this is a £7000 chain - that one would expect to sound good , but the diifference is beyond good it makes you just sit back close your eyes and feel good inside - but I digress.....the only things I've never really liked on the electronic stuff I do has been the tla audio range - has always just sounded BAD to me I

[GuruInSpace]

High end Mics and Pre Amps. I have no use for them. But they sure look good.

[yareck]

I haven't found Manley Vari-Mu very useful for electronic music. Much more I use other compressors I have.

[CHEEZYBEATS]

What about the Avalon VT-747SP? Is that a good piece to add to my Virus TI and A6(if I decide to get one)? Should I look at some other kind of Preamp?

[Reptil]

whoah old thread!
what happened???!

oh avalon - clean - I like the high end a lot
very polished sound - would not kick an AD2044 out of the bed

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by CHEEZYBEATS

What about the Avalon VT-747SP? Is that a good piece to add to my Virus TI and A6(if I decide to get one)? Should I look at some other kind of Preamp?

I know someone who users an engineer now and again who uses the Avalon. I've always liked his mixes from that engineer. Then again that could be the person rather than the tools.

Ben

[Spectral Climax]

Avalon compressors...i think they are very transparent and subtle for synths or drums...

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by Reptil

whoah old thread!
what happened???!

oh avalon - clean - I like the high end a lot
very polished sound - would not kick an AD3044 out of the bed

AD2044. I love it for tracking stereo synths. I'm with DSMrehearsal: last CD I made I tracked all my Virus parts through AD2022 -> AD2055 -> AD2044. I was very happy with the sounds I got.

The only problem is that it raises the noise floor a bit, so that on recordings where you want a very silent backdrop you have to be careful what the analog front end is introducing in the way of noise. This is especially true for the preamp, because in effect what you are doing when you run the Virus through a preamp is attenuating the signal and then re-amplifying it, and that will necessarily introduce at least some noise even using the best preamps. (I thought the tradeoff was worth it last time, because the preamp gives you great control over the level of the signal through the rest of the chain and adds some sparkle. But there's an argument to be made for skipping the preamp and going straight to some other analog signal processor.)

-synthoid

[kazper]

Over all all the high end gear will fit nicely in the mix when it's in a position where it should be used or misused. This would be the same with any inexpensive piece of gear also.

Remember these things...

Higher end gear is more dedicated to it's purpose in general. On a LA2A as a example you have a input gain, Output adjustment, Limit or Compressor setting and a switch for what's shown on the VU and thats it..
LA-2A

Where the following common low end compressors (which some of you may have) have many controls and can be seen as difficult to get a good sound out of because of the many controls.

DBX 166XL
alesis 3630

Most high end gear use transformer to electrically isolate itself which typically provide coloration from the transformers design and distortion (in a good way). The down side of this is you can try to pump a transformer with a puny line amp that don't have the ballz to drive the transformer so you don't get the same Mojo that you would find from the hot output of a nice Mic Pre.

Kaz

[e-cue]

Ribbon mics. PZM mics. SCD mics.

These are seem rarely useful for electronic based music.

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by kazper

Remember these things...

Higher end gear is more dedicated to it's purpose in general. On a LA2A as a example you have a input gain, Output adjustment, Limit or Compressor setting and a switch for what's shown on the VU and thats it..
LA-2A

Where the following common low end compressors (which some of you may have) have many controls and can be seen as difficult to get a good sound out of because of the many controls.

DBX 166XL
alesis 3630
Kaz

The controls have nothing to do with sound, this is bad example.
Many low end units have very little control while the high end you may find many, the amount of controls/buttos/knobs etc. it has nothing to do with the sound of specific gear.

to the OP - High End gear for electronic music? sure. depends on how you work, do you record some of the stuff? drums/prec, re-amping synths and Amp recording... then you need a microphone to do that.. depending on the room, i could use 3... ribbon could be cool from room sound with 2 close mic'ing.. the better quality mic - the better resuls youre going to get... same as mic pre.

Do you master? then you need a hell of High End Gear; Converters, monitors, limiters, room etc..

Do you combine Vocals (you will find a lot today) in your tracks? then a high end vocal chain is very much needed. at least great mic nd decent preamp.

so overall it depends on one needs, the question of " What High end gear DOESNT work great on electronic music? " the answer is NONE. they all work wonders... what is Electonic music anyway. could be 170bpm hardfloor kicks, which then i dont belive Manley Vari-Mu will work well its not fast enough. maybe just for color at the end of the chain...
but for 80bmp chill out track i would love to have a Vari-Mu there...

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by synthoid

AD2044. I love it for tracking stereo synths. I'm with DSMrehearsal: last CD I made I tracked all my Virus parts through AD2022 -> AD2055 -> AD2044. I was very happy with the sounds I got.

The only problem is that it raises the noise floor a bit, so that on recordings where you want a very silent backdrop you have to be careful what the analog front end is introducing in the way of noise. This is especially true for the preamp, because in effect what you are doing when you run the Virus through a preamp is attenuating the signal and then re-amplifying it, and that will necessarily introduce at least some noise even using the best preamps. (I thought the tradeoff was worth it last time, because the preamp gives you great control over the level of the signal through the rest of the chain and adds some sparkle. But there's an argument to be made for skipping the preamp and going straight to some other analog signal processor.)

-synthoid

yes, AD2044 - thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake
I think it's because they "sparkle" (good word for what it does yes) they also take up the high freq noise that's normally buried somewhere in there. It would be a good idea to keep the signal path as short as possible, and maybe add a good lowpass filter to it (just before the preamp). Not so much that you can hear it, but enough to get rid of the high freq trash. Did you try that? IME a lowpassgate (vactrols) helps smooth these out before compression.

In fact I'm looking for a "sparklehorse", in about two months.
I used to have a Urei BL-40 for that (sort of 3d-aliser), now thinking about another BL-40 (generously offered for sale by astrnmr), and either a Pendulum ES-8, or a DW Fearn VT-7. Both for tracking and for polish and overall compression during mixing (to make it smoother, without losing the relation between the dynamics of the instruments too much).
The compression action of the ES-8, just like the Avalon is very mellow, soft almost, but there's other tools for grab and slam. The VT-7 does grab, but in such a way that there's no added punch. I haven't had the chance to test either unit thouroughly, so my experience is limited.
The Anamod 660 is also on the chart. Loved the sound of that. It does have a very specific coloration.
If I didn't have a bunch of VCA compressors already I'd also look at the UBK Fatso. Getting that would probably overlap with my other transformer based stuff dynamics processors. (API 525 clones, U473a, U273b Kultube, 2500) Maybe I have to test them all.

Sorry for the long post, and sundaymorning ramblings. Compression on my mind.
Any advice from slutz that compared either unit (Pendulum, DW Fearn) would be appreciated. I like Avalon EQ but not so much the compression. I got two months to narrow it down.

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Any advice from slutz that compared either unit (Pendulum, DW Fearn) would be appreciated. I like Avalon EQ but not so much the compression. I got two months to narrow it down.

i have Pendulum MDP-1 mic pre, their stuff is superior!! i find it better then my neve 1073. the reason i have my eyes on ES-8 for long time, would love to hear some comments as well ...

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by Reptil

yes, AD2044 - thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake
I think it's because they "sparkle" (good word for what it does yes) they also take up the high freq noise that's normally buried somewhere in there. It would be a good idea to keep the signal path as short as possible, and maybe add a good lowpass filter to it (just before the preamp). Not so much that you can hear it, but enough to get rid of the high freq trash. Did you try that? IME a lowpassgate (vactrols) helps smooth these out before compression.

I hadn't thought of inserting anything before the preamp. I do on the other hand have the EQ between the preamp and comp and I roll of high end with it sometimes. The noise was very manageable, not enough for me to bother with last time I tracked this way. I'm thinking about aiming for a much lower noise floor in the next recordings I do, just to see if I can get a very "black" backdrop, so I might worry more about it then.

-synthoid

[kreeper_6]

This sounds awesome on anything...

[spol]

I bought couple of synths from here and I'm pissed off because they just don't work very well with electronic music. I should have done my research! tutt

[rockmanrock]

Originally Posted by spol

I bought couple of synths from here and I'm pissed off because they just don't work very well with electronic music. I should have done my research! tutt

Looks like a circuit-benders wet dream.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by spol

I bought couple of synths from here and I'm pissed off because they just don't work very well with electronic music. I should have done my research! tutt

yeah man! this one looks awesome!

I might grab me one (or two).
who says it HAS to be expensive? sometimes I'm a luxury animal. So fukking what? if it's possible, and you need it, for what you want, go for it.
If you can't be creative (just as creative) with less expensive toys.
Anti snobbery can become snobbery as well IMO. Whatever works man.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by kreeper_6

This sounds awesome on anything...

I see two gain knobs
butwhatisit??

[Martin Dubka]

Decca Tree

[tribeofenki]

this thread gone nuts.

[SighBorg]

La2a (Spikey attack on a lot of synthetic sources and release is too long)
Avalon EQs (Too bright, no oomph)
Avalon Comps
Vintech dual 72s (Too dark/hazed)
Amek 9098 comp
Summit TLA-100s (The DCL is a different story though)
SSL Quad Comp - Cool if the track has enough air/grime in the background. If there's a lot of separation between sounds I dont like it at all. Channel comps much cooler for eletronica imo.
Avalon AD2022
I prefer the BF1176 over the UAD1176 for pads.

With compressors & electronica the more program dependant the comp is the more skeptical I am with it. They usually try to fight pump & shaping which is the opposite of what I want.