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#151
23rd July 2013
Old 23rd July 2013
  #151
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With MIDI to CV converters and Expert Sleepers Silent Way you can do all the sequencing ITB while tweaking your hardware, best of both worlds.
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anigbrowl
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#152
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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#153
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anigbrowl View Post
I'm quite interested to hear how other people approach the sequencing thing.

It'd be great to hear other people's workflow strategies - for example do you set aside days to just do drums, or just grab some loops so you can concentrate on the synth stuff, or build up a big variety of melodic parts first and do the tweakage later, etc. etc.
Hey Eddy,

These days I sequence and mix fully ITB. I might add some recorded hardware but sequencing and mixing is all ITB. My projects have way too many tracks to work any other way. (On average about 150 stereo tracks. Some go up to 250...)

I usually start with a kick and bass combo to start the energy going. Then I start messing with synth and start creating sounds and melodies.

I tend to start a progression pretty quickly but I'm not sure that is the best approach. I know many artists that start with a 16/32 bar loop and keep creating and adding new sounds, riffs, melodies, percussion etc and will only start arranging things when they have enough material that works together. (Say a 100 tracks worth of sounds).

I'll post some music this evening when I get home.

Alistair
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#154
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
  #154
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Originally Posted by 3001 View Post
OTB and goa/psy don't really mix unfortunately. It's not that hard a genre when you work in DAWs and use their little tricks. But OTB it's such an insanely complex genre...
I find this a slightly odd comment to make, as most celebrated 'best' goa was made in the early/mid 90's.....with no daws, nor hundreds of automation lines. Not an attack, just a thought.
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#155
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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It depends if you're referring to an Hallucinogen/Sphongle: totally OTB or an Infected Mushroom (Psy Era, not the actual production) mixing ITB and with Duvdev live-playing virtual analog synths as the Novation.
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#156
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijuro View Post
I find this a slightly odd comment to make, as most celebrated 'best' goa was made in the early/mid 90's.....with no daws, nor hundreds of automation lines. Not an attack, just a thought.
But stil using computers for sequencers, so not otb...
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#157
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
  #157
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TB-303 is usually sequenced OTB and it's very "goa". I find it very questionable needing over a hundred(!?!) tracks for making a song. "Trancentral Four - A trip to goa" which i think is the peak of goa trance have tracks where you don't often have more than 8 sounds playing at once. At least no more than 16 (if you count drums). I bet most of the sound effects are samples and not "live" synths needing automation (probably sampled from their own synths one by one with "hands" doing the automation) . Naturally i could be all wrong but it makes sense if you consider the gear available at the time.
Fun thing to think about while watching it: What is the least amount of gear you could get away with creating all these songs? A start would be a sequencer (Atari?), a desk, a sampler, a 303, a 106/101/rompler/alpha etc..., maybe a 909/808/707/727/606/505, a couple of fx units, not too many compressors.
How was it recorded in 1993-95? Dat? The only affordable soundcards back then was Soundblaster Awe's and some Turtle beach
My pentium 75 couldn't play back midi and record 2 tracks of audio at the same time so i recorded onto minidisc and then to the computer .. high fidelity style :D

Anyways here's the Trip to goa

At 20 min it will start to have a certain effect on your brain. I usually end up staring at a wall for the duration of the mix

edit: ty anigbrowl <3 video is fixed!
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#158
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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a friend of mine put out a track I think in 93, it was played a lot at goa parties, and I think was considered goa even.

All he used a was a TB303 and an ASR10...:o

I'm curious how it was done though hah. you're right in 92 there wasn't much in the world of computer recordin hmm
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#159
24th July 2013
Old 24th July 2013
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Ill put you into a trance with 1 mono track and no edits.
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#160
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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Originally Posted by Sleepydog View Post
Anyways here's the Trip to goa
Fixed the link. I know posting Youtube videos on GS is a royal pain in the ass, but you need to post only the last 10 random characters after 'www . youtube . com / v=' or the video won't display at all

Quote:
Fun thing to think about while watching it: What is the least amount of gear you could get away with creating all these songs? A start would be a sequencer (Atari?), a desk, a sampler, a 303, a 106/101/rompler/alpha etc..., maybe a 909/808/707/727/606/505, a couple of fx units, not too many compressors.
That's one reason that I pushed myself into spending the last 18 months sequencing everything on the Octatrack - I wanted to force myself into using a small number of tracks with a relatively restricted set of choices to break out of some unproductive mental patterns I had developed when sitting in front of the computer. I don't mean that this is the best or even a better way to work than ITB or whatever, it was just what I needed to do at the time to get my creativity rolling again.

On the plus side I've found I really like working that way - the OT is a lovely instrument once you get past the initial learning curve, and makes improvisation and experimentation very easy because you are working with a relatively small parameter set that's easy to keep in your head at one time. On the negative side, working in a pattern mode all the time is not ideal for longer compositions because things like breakdowns/buildups, cadences and turnarounds have to be put into their own patterns or built in advance using sample slices or other methods.

The arranger/song mode in that machine (and other hardware sequencers) is very powerful but it's definitely much more mentally taxing to do a big track through an event list rather than to lay it out on screen, or build your track by copying and pasting.
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#161
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Ill put you into a trance with 1 mono track and no edits.
Dig it

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#162
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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Hallucinogen (newer) and Sphongle are mixing things ITB and also routing some tracks and grouping things to a Mackie 32channel 8buss. So no, Simon is not OTB only. He mixes things in Logic as well.

Nice to see Joti here! This thread has official cred now

Latest noise from me, just got signed as well, release end of 2013.

http://soundcloud.com/disco-hooligans/martian-arts-chaos-before
#163
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #163
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I'll also pitch in and say hi... though I joined this board to focus on gear for band music, I did have my day (actually several years) with Psychedelic Trance, and was a founding member of Sonic Species until just before the release of the first album which I co-wrote

Joti, did you/do you have a studio in Brighton?
#164
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #164
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And for the interest of others, I run Psychedelic Trance Masterclasses online, hosted by artists on the level mentioned in this thread, which give enrolled students a chance to be part of a small group for a three-hour session, and we're organizing the next one very soon :-)

Sorry if it's spam!
#165
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #165
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I have'nt read the entire thread here, but the title begs this response. ''Goa'' Trance or whatever one prefers to call it, became a narrow genre from the late 90s onward, there were many factors for this happening, which are too numerous to mention here, but those great tunes from mid to late 90s had such an impact because there really was'nt much of a rule book regarding the arrangements or style of the music. Of course there was a formula which lots of producers would try and break out of as much as possible whilst at the same time staying relevant on the scene and it was this, the disregard for 'normal' that helped shape and define the music.
The crux of the matter here is, i think, that it is important that producers try to find their own way into writing for a certain type of music. It's not enough to get that sawtooth arpeggio and fuzz it up and wiggle the mod wheel to your hearts content, one needs to go further than that. It good to research techniques for sure, but really people learn best when coming into contact with others and gleaning tricks and techniques from those who have more knowledge than oneself.....
This is how i learnt, by sitting and watching and collaborating with those who knew more than I, and that was invaluable experience. In this age of almost instant gratification it takes some willpower, concentration, mental stamina, and above all else: patience to ''learn'' the knowledge required to make banging psychedelic tracks and the scene only gets good when there is a variety in the output of different artists on the scene. I'm not talking off the top of my head here, i have had many top tunes on the goa and psytrance scene over the years and firmly believe that the scene, or any genre for that matter, is only as good as the quality and variety of the artists and tunes populating that scene/genre at that particular time.

Bottom line: You have to find your own way, it takes hard work, there is no quick fix/preset/sample library short cut. It takes dedication and perseverance.............

Great thread BTW..........BOM!

If you think i'm talking s**t you may want to check some of my 'unconventional' output over the years.............http://nervasystem.bandcamp.com/

Last edited by drezz; 25th July 2013 at 01:03 PM.. Reason: Great thread BTW..........BOM!
#166
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #166
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Hey Drezz, what name did you release under?
#167
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #167
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Nervasystem

#168
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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Originally Posted by drezz View Post
Nervasystem

cool, I always liked the stardust one on matsuri. I love when there are those 1/2 note zaps! I miss that groove. I think things have gotten too monotone now with groove...to the point where there's no groove...but this stuff is great =)

I do miss Matsuri, I really loved the output from them. It was always unique and original stuff.
#169
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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#170
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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#171
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #171
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Hey there, first post so i will start on topic and finish off topic :D

My opinion on the topic of todays psychedelic trance vs oldschool is that the problem is not in the gear used in the production process, but the main difference is the mindset of the todays producers.. Everyone this days is trying to follow some unwritten rules, they are too bothered by that how things sounds, how powerful the kick is, how good the production is etc.. The beauty of the psychedelic trance was that there were no rules, so you were always waiting to hear something new on the dancefloor. Not this days!! Everything sounds the same, there is absolutely no story in the psychedelic music any more..

As far the gear is concerned, in the old days they used and overused, sometimes abused the gear they had.. On contrary, todays software offers much more stability and much more options, that were hard to achieve in mid to late nineties. So if you dont have a compressor you were going to clip the input of the mackie mixer, but even if you had compressors in your arsenal you were still going to clip the mackie because you liked how it was sounding (a tip from UX). Flying rhino records had huge studio full of equipment, Process had modulars, Hux Flux made some of his first and best stuff on a tracker, so it is not the gear its the man that operates that is making good music..

I joined this forum and this discussion just to say hello to Drezz from Nervasystem, big fan here, stuff you made with Aether is epic, Seven serpents is still regularly in my sets, but as well Unknown Controllers Ep is a crazy one.. I know that you worked with Process as well..

So back on topic: for me, psychedelic music (some people call it goa trance, psy trance) is from 97 to 2001, this were the golden years of the music that i enjoy listening to, from artists like: Sean Williams - Process, Simon, Beast, Hux Flux (early stuff only), Nervasystem, Double dragon, Mino, UX, Slide and for more demanding listeners Organic Noise.. Enjoy

Off topic again:

Nice advertisment there Psychaos, is that crapy fullon psychedelic or goa trance, or oldschool retro set? Just curious.. In your post you were full of tips and insides in the scene, thanks.

Cheers, hope that i was not to boring!

Ps: grow some balls kids, and start listening and producing good music again!
#172
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3001 View Post
cool, I always liked the stardust one on matsuri. I love when there are those 1/2 note zaps! I miss that groove. I think things have gotten too monotone now with groove...to the point where there's no groove...but this stuff is great =)

I do miss Matsuri, I really loved the output from them. It was always unique and original stuff.
Hey man, Tsuyoshi has started Matsuri Digital, i spoke to him recently and he intends to release music with the old school 'goa' flavour. I think he has a compilation in the pipeline..........
#173
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crnorizec Hrabar View Post
Hey there, first post so i will start on topic and finish off topic :D

My opinion on the topic of todays psychedelic trance vs oldschool is that the problem is not in the gear used in the production process, but the main difference is the mindset of the todays producers.. Everyone this days is trying to follow some unwritten rules, they are too bothered by that how things sounds, how powerful the kick is, how good the production is etc.. The beauty of the psychedelic trance was that there were no rules, so you were always waiting to hear something new on the dancefloor. Not this days!! Everything sounds the same, there is absolutely no story in the psychedelic music any more..

As far the gear is concerned, in the old days they used and overused, sometimes abused the gear they had.. On contrary, todays software offers much more stability and much more options, that were hard to achieve in mid to late nineties. So if you dont have a compressor you were going to clip the input of the mackie mixer, but even if you had compressors in your arsenal you were still going to clip the mackie because you liked how it was sounding (a tip from UX). Flying rhino records had huge studio full of equipment, Process had modulars, Hux Flux made some of his first and best stuff on a tracker, so it is not the gear its the man that operates that is making good music..

I joined this forum and this discussion just to say hello to Drezz from Nervasystem, big fan here, stuff you made with Aether is epic, Seven serpents is still regularly in my sets, but as well Unknown Controllers Ep is a crazy one.. I know that you worked with Process as well..

So back on topic: for me, psychedelic music (some people call it goa trance, psy trance) is from 97 to 2001, this were the golden years of the music that i enjoy listening to, from artists like: Sean Williams - Process, Simon, Beast, Hux Flux (early stuff only), Nervasystem, Double dragon, Mino, UX, Slide and for more demanding listeners Organic Noise.. Enjoy

Off topic again:

Nice advertisment there Psychaos, is that crapy fullon psychedelic or goa trance, or oldschool retro set? Just curious.. In your post you were full of tips and insides in the scene, thanks.

Cheers, hope that i was not to boring!

Ps: grow some balls kids, and start listening and producing good music again!
Hi, Thanks for the kind words........

You brought up some great points.........It's true what you say about abusing and using the gear. In the 90s everyone was using an Atari ST1040 to sequence and a sampler and a bunch of analogue synths through a mixer with a few FX. You learnt the kit inside out, you learn how to manipulate it and abuse it, stick it through weird patches and pedals, fuzz boxes, crank the input gain and generally work it to a point where hopefully you made a sound that was different to everyone else. There was very little compression used as most psychedelic trance producers didnt even own a compressor. The first signs of homogenisation in the trance scene came with newer synths, such as the nord lead and of course with the widespread use of digital systems and plugins.
A lot of the original producers went off and did other things after 2000 and the new school just turned a corner i guess, the music changed and styles morphed into different things.......
Now is an interesting time, a lot of the original 'goa' producers are coming back, bolstered by the 'retro' trance party scene. Its crazy, but after playing in the last few years at a few parties again for the first time in a decade, i've met with many of the well known producers from the 90s and many are starting to write the psychedelic music again. I feel like we're having a real revolution in the psychedelic electronic dance music....
@Crnorizec Hrabar: You're also right about how people write to rules, and its so easy to fall into a trap of conformity and so easy to sound like everyone else with the same DAWs and VSTs and so on.......BUT it doesnt have to be the case. The environment of the digital world of software is so mind bogglingly powerful, but if used creatively one can write spectacular music and it doesnt have to be same-ey. I'm writing a new album now and i dont think it sounds like anyone else, it sounds like me, but i do not listen to a lot of trance when i'm writing, and thats on purpose in a way to avoid copying anyone else.
Like i said before, it comes from the person, the dedication and the ideas. One thing about the old tunes is they told a story and were psychedelic in the respect that they took you on a journey, i think this is why they have endured and found a classic status. I dont really hear this with a lot of the new trance music.
Anyway, watch the old school crew, we're coming back and just like last time it's going to do the business.........

Bom!
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anigbrowl
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#174
25th July 2013
Old 25th July 2013
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drezz View Post
If you think i'm talking s**t you may want to check some of my 'unconventional' output over the years.............http://nervasystem.bandcamp.com/
#175
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
  #175
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@AlexKites

I have sent you a PM regarding the masterclass, I'm interested in being part of it, please reply.

Cheers!
#176
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
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I agree with Crnorizec Hrabar, today's psytrance sounds like it came out of a "how to make psytrance" youtube tutorial, all artists sounds the same... I believe they even use the same factory presets from their nords and virus, same eveything, it's like a factory. Lot's of outdated and overly abused sounds, even in the progressive scene wich should be avant garde is all the same shit.
#177
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
  #177
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great posts guys..to me at first it was more or less just dance music.. and everything slowly went their own way following their own rules...techno dnb goa house all are sub genre from dance music ..and today what we get is even more splitt.. a total mess with every producers folowing rules to stick in their little restricted subgenre...it can only narrow creativity and the experimental side of the music that is lost.
these day electronic music is as soon as som one innovate and make great stuff it become almost a new sub genre with all the fans making music..it s fan boy music you hear these days ,it was not so much in the goa trance era..
#178
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Abstract View Post
great posts guys..to me at first it was more or less just dance music.. and everything slowly went their own way following their own rules...techno dnb goa house all are sub genre from dance music ..and today what we get is even more splitt.. a total mess with every producers folowing rules to stick in their little restricted subgenre...it can only narrow creativity and the experimental side of the music that is lost.
these day electronic music is as soon as som one innovate and make great stuff it become almost a new sub genre with all the fans making music..it s fan boy music you hear these days ,it was not so much in the goa trance era..
Too true.And ill add this quote "the hunter gets captured by the game" Grace Jones.The music scene is a big boiling pot,a whirlpool that sucks us in to its center and dissolves us.The minute you take yourself too seriously 'BAM' you look like a twat!!!!Well we be becoming serious with all our studio gear and softwares rigidly sequencing ourselves into the 'format' that is expected.Whats missing from music nowadays i wonder.Musical instruments and voice ect.Want a reverb???want a drum??go record that boomboombap in a cave.Like a nice flutey sound??howz about recording a flute.Machines be turning us into idjutts.

edit-I seemed to have drunk too much coffee this morning,excuse me "] altho im not really into the arp everything mode would love to hear some modern trippy new Goa influenced 'whatever' music.Be nice to hear some new twists.

Last edited by Goa-Dubs; 26th July 2013 at 09:50 AM.. Reason: coffee and GS
#179
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
  #179
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Do you think the shift from vinyl to cd made a big change here? Im thinking more in sound as in mixing and mastering. Listening through Destination Goa series i hear there's a trend of things going more and more sterile. I think it's part due to less crazy mixing. Or is it the nord lead effect? Lack of delay/reverb?

The Auranaut - Groove on Dream off 1995.

Kaaya Ormazd 1996. Could be my favourite of all time It's simplistic in the way of amount of sounds. At least two juno's here (check out the other side Braindance also!!)

Destination goa 04 1997. Nice amount of energy and a very full surrounding sounding mix.


Destination goa 06 1998. I LOVE the main melody in this one but bleh where is the energy? It sounds so flat.


I actually had trouble finding good examples of songs sounding dull in the later part of the series. Very weird i thought! Then i looked at my soundcraft mixer and noticed that i had a little lexicon reverb on it and mid and high boosted. Maybe that's it? Things are too dry? I have reverb and boosted mids and highs on everything. If i watch MMA or play games. So much easier for my ears to hear things.

Pointless post as i couldn't make my point.. Ill post it anyway
#180
26th July 2013
Old 26th July 2013
  #180
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That Chi-Ad track really benefited from some heavy compression (alesis 3630 5-6db 2:1).
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