Creating Wavetables for my Waldorf Blofeld...HELP!!!
jimmyklane
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#1
25th March 2013
Old 25th March 2013
  #1
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Creating Wavetables for my Waldorf Blofeld...HELP!!!

Hello Slutz!

I'm the proud owner of a Waldorf Blofeld....ebay special just arrived 2 days ago. I restored the unit to factory spec, and ran it through it's paces over the weekend. Now, I come to my issue: I have the wavetable creator from here

Kotró László Lehel

and have been able to create waves INTERNALLY in the creator and upload them into my blofeld no problem... However, what I want to do is use my analog synths (alpha juno Saw-Wave Modulation sounds interesting!) and upload THOSE into the blofeld as wavetables. (not samples, but actual wavetables!!!)

What I don't understand is the EXACT method to go about doing this. The Waldorf wavetables seem to be 64 separate 128 sample waves, that are combined via the creator into a sysex file and uploaded via Nuendo or MIDI-OX. Can I just record a (very?) quick snippet of my Juno and chop it up into 64 128-sample snippets? Do I need to crossfade like I would when comping a vocal, or does it not matter due to the interpolation of waves in the table? Can they be stereo, or mono only? Blofeld is 16-bit, but I've read that maybe they need to be saved as 8-bit "unsigned RAW"...is that the case?

If ANYONE can assist me in creating my own wavetables from real-world sources, that would be really great, and I'd certainly be more than willing to share what I've made with you!!!

Thank You!

-Jim
#2
25th March 2013
Old 25th March 2013
  #2
I also got a Blofeld two days ago.
Which means I have nothing to add yet but I will be following this thread closely. This is my first wavetable synth & have already taken a crack at creating patches with the wavetables - very different to what I'm used to. Finding the PPG filter to be quite tasty too.
Good luck in your quest.
jimmyklane
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#3
25th March 2013
Old 25th March 2013
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
I also got a Blofeld two days ago.
Which means I have nothing to add yet but I will be following this thread closely. This is my first wavetable synth & have already taken a crack at creating patches with the wavetables - very different to what I'm used to. Finding the PPG filter to be quite tasty too.
Good luck in your quest.
Check out the Blofeld Wavetable Creator that I linked in the OP... I DOES work, and you can get some really gnarly sounds simply by DRAWING a bunch of waves!!! I've yet to try drawing all 64 waves randomly... so far, I've simply created a few saw--->sqaure or PWM type morphs with the software. There are tutorials on YouTube for this software, but not for what I'm trying to do. The help file only tells me that the files have to be at the F below A440, @ 334.??? HZ.... i still have no idea how to edit or compile the actual waves, or if I need to take care when recording them from my synths.

Better to ask the community before spending an entire weekend for no results!
#4
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #4
The three things I discovered today using the Kotró László Lehel wavetable creator:

1. Importing samples is dead easy.
2. Sample length does matter - the longer, the better.
3. Samples lose their original character, as in it was impossible to tell what samples I was using (Mellotron choir, cello). This was annoying because, from what I've heard on the Blofeld, some samples do retain their character. Unfortunately, these are things like bells & electric pianos, two sounds that I personally can't stand.
jimmyklane
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#5
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
The three things I discovered today using the Kotró László Lehel wavetable creator:

1. Importing samples is dead easy.
2. Sample length does matter - the longer, the better.
3. Samples lose their original character, as in it was impossible to tell what samples I was using (Mellotron choir, cello). This was annoying because, from what I've heard on the Blofeld, some samples do retain their character. Unfortunately, these are things like bells & electric pianos, two sounds that I personally can't stand.
so you're telling me that the subtle nuances that make a Moog oscillator sound so great are going to be lost when I import swept waves in from it? DAMN... i was hoping it would be otherwise.

When you say the longer, the better: you mean still like 1/4 second samples, or 10-15 second sweeps are fine too? Every time I've tried to import a sample, it gives me some sort of error. what format, bit depth, sample rate are you using?

Oh, and thank you so much for replying!!! I'm super stoked to try this tonight when I get home from work!

EDIT: the error states that 32/44.1 MONO files are needed. I'll have to try that one ASAP

EDIT 2: Have Wavosaur at work, tried saving a mix as a 32 bit mono PCM file...and it's giving me the same error. I am usually the one doing the step-by-step, but would you be kind enough to take this in baby steps for me? I'm sorry to ask, but I'm really looking forward to creating my own unique wavetables. If you're interested, i'll share whatever I make in payment!

Last edited by jimmyklane; 26th March 2013 at 08:12 PM.. Reason: still need clarity
#6
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #6
Format must be mono, 44,1 kHz and 32 bit integer (NOT 32 bit IEEE float). Further the program assumes the file header to be 44 bytes exactly. If the header is larger, it's interpreted as audio data.

Edit: Try the pre-resynthesized wavetable files in the attached archive for importing into Blofeld Wavetable Creator. They have the right length and format.
Attached Files

Last edited by blacktomcat666; 26th March 2013 at 08:35 PM.. Reason: file attached
jimmyklane
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#7
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktomcat666 View Post
Format must be mono, 44,1 kHz and 32 bit integer (NOT 32 bit IEEE float). Further the program assumes the file header to be 44 bytes exactly. If the header is larger, it's interpreted as audio data.

Edit: Try the pre-resynthesized wavetable files in the attached archive for importing into Blofeld Wavetable Creator. They have the right length and format.
Got it. I was exporting as raw binary at 32 bits... no chunk/no header... no dice.

I disagree with "the longer the better".... at least in the extreme. An entire song created a few random sine harmonics, whereas a 5 second sample created something that LOOKED more useable (i haven't loaded any of these, I'm at work) and then a .5 second sample looked just like the PPG wavetables we know and love... So, my plan is to record a 1/2 second sweep of my Moog SP with both oscillators an octave apart swept from Saw to thin pulse and load the whole thing in. I'm hoping that if I get it right, I'll be able to play Moog wavetables by the weekend.

If i get it to work, anyone interested?
jimmyklane
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#8
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktomcat666 View Post
Format must be mono, 44,1 kHz and 32 bit integer (NOT 32 bit IEEE float). Further the program assumes the file header to be 44 bytes exactly. If the header is larger, it's interpreted as audio data.

Edit: Try the pre-resynthesized wavetable files in the attached archive for importing into Blofeld Wavetable Creator. They have the right length and format.
OH WOW!!! you're the guy that made the light-pen DOS wavetable creator back in 2010 or so....right? I remember the name KTERM.... you had another part too, SCOOP? SLOOP? something like that....

did you ever develop the entire program? Will it work for creating specific wavetables for the Blofeld?
#9
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #9
Gear addict
 

I've gotten the sense that capturing the essence of a sound when turning it into a wavetable takes quite a lot of work. How much of the sound's character is lost when massaging the waveform to fit into a series of cycles, for instance?

It's on my godawful to-do list anyway :-/
#10
26th March 2013
Old 26th March 2013
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyklane View Post
OH WOW!!! you're the guy that made the light-pen DOS wavetable creator back in 2010 or so....right? I remember the name KTERM.... you had another part too, SCOOP? SLOOP? something like that....

did you ever develop the entire program? Will it work for creating specific wavetables for the Blofeld?
The current name is "Audio-Term" and it's now a Windows program - and I'm still working on (mostly monthly) updates. Here's the thread at kvr:

A small waveterm for Terratec Komplexer

AT is primarily designed for Terratec Komplexer. This means 33 editable wavetable entries only and bipolar sine waves only. But you can also render wavetables to *.WAV (up to 1024 interpolated wavetable entries for use in VAZ Modular/Reaktor/Wusikstation) and to *.BWC (64 wavetable entries for Blofeld).

The *.BWC (Blofeld Wavetable Creator) format is the sort of file you find in the archive (consists of the audio data and harmonic data for re-importing to Audio-Term to avoid data loss because of the different table sizes). I renamed them to *.WAV to make it more obvious that you have to load them as wave files.

Resynthesis in AT works different than in Blofeld Wavetable Creator. AT uses FFT analysis, range summing and phase locking and is more an additive synth with 64 harmonics. The files sound ok on the products mentioned above, but in Bofeld they might sound a bit crunchy. There's no additional interpolation between slices as in Komplexer - at least as far as I know, I don't own a Blofeld to try it).
jimmyklane
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#11
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #11
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Well, I thought that the blofeld was interpolating, but it seems that if you feed it discontinuous waves directly "next to" one another in the hardware, they glitch in the same way the PPG did....it's the software doing the interpolation, and the wavetables are smooth when you re-export them as .wav files.

I DID get my Moog wavetables to load, and what they DID keep was the characteristic "thick" sound of a single oscillator, what they lost was the super rich interaction between the two oscillators.... I recorded a 2-osc patch, but somehow got a "notched" single oscillator sound! My task for the weekend is to determine exactly what pitch, length, amplitude, and phase make up each actual RAW WAVETABLE.... I've read that each "section" of the Wavetable (of which there are 64) is 128 samples long...but I have no way to verify this that I can think of... If that's the case, then each waveform DOES have to be a single-cycle sample @ ~344.54 Hz, and I'll have to use the Moog "precision mode" (12-bit values) and move the Waveshape parameter 64 clicks for each single cycle sample..... My real question is: if I actually go through that insane level of precision work, CAN I capture the sound(more the feel) of a 2-oscillator Moog synth into a single Wavetable? With what I did just tonight in 15 minutes, my blofeld sounded like a distant cousin of a Memorymoog....if I can get to 1st cousins ( step-brother?!!?) of it with a Blofeld, I'll be on to something.

I also have high hopes for Alpha Juno Saw-Wave-Modulation, if I can nail the simple Moog waves and capture their essence in a Wavetable!
#12
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #12
Yes, a wavetable is a kind of "single cycle list" and the wavetable modulation parameter in blofeld is "only" a pointer to the currently played wavetable entry.

A single cycle has to fit into one of the slots of 128 samples, otherwise there are "jumps" at start / end of the single cycle resulting in a sawtooth - like sound. Best results are achieved by using additive synthesis, were the fundamental frequency is 344.53125 Hz exactly and the overtones (up to 63) are integral multiples of the fundamental.

And thats one reason why my Audio-Term software uses additive synthesis/FFT resynthesis when importing samples. The result of my approach is that overall amplitude and spectral distribution are roughly preserved, but you loose "phase change over time" information (which is important for detuned and inharmonic sounds, as "phase change over time" is the representation of the exact frequencies of a sound).

For importing a sample in the Blofeld Wavetable Creator v1.0 you have to know that it only uses the first 128x64=8192 samples of a wave file. The rest is simply cut off. There's no sort of resynthesis or "range summing" for longer samples in there. Wavetable Creator only distributes the first 8192 samples to the 64 slots. Further you have to make shure that your sample's fundamental frequency is 344.53125 Hz (128 samples at 44.1 kHz) and all information you need is included in 8192 samples.

Best results you get on sounds with no internal detuning, harmonic content (e-pianos, pipes and neat bells... ), static pitch and single notes (no chords). The more complex a sound, the more the result differs from the original. This are fundamental limitations of classic wavetable synthesis.

If Blofeld does not interpolate the 64 wavetable slots internally (as Terratec Komplexer does), you have to do this in the editor by interpolating over some empty slots - at least if you want a smooth sound without stepping. But then you lose source signal information, so the blofeld is not so appropriate for smooth sample resynthesis, but more for blending some (say up to 8) static spectra or classic "crackling" wavetable sounds.

I hope what I wrote is understandable, English is not my native language.
#13
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #13
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Your English is perfectly understandable, don't worry.
jimmyklane
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#14
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #14
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Agreed, your English is perfect... And furthermore, you articulated the exact issue(s) I'm experiencing with remarkable clarity. What I'm getting from your post is: fundamental to the manner in which wavetables work, I will lose the Phase Delta of the Moog oscillators I'm attempting to add....and just maybe with a ton of very exacting work and probably some signal loss from DSP operations, I can get a slightly more accurate snapshot of the FREQUENCY content, but no matter how much work I do, I won't get the sound of two analog oscillators drifting into a single Wavetable... Yes?
#15
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #15
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EvilDragon's Avatar
 

Why wouldn't you just use the same wavetable in two oscillators and detune them like so? Sure it won't quite be the same, but...
#16
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #16
After creating wavetables, how the hell are you supposed to organize them?
jimmyklane
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#17
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Why wouldn't you just use the same wavetable in two oscillators and detune them like so? Sure it won't quite be the same, but...
Tried that.... the technical challenge was to get the very "rich" detuned Moog sound into a wavetable. I have also created a wavetable (using the continuous waveshapes) of a single oscillator, and then detuned the second wavetable just a bit... You ARE correct, I CAN do that.... the question (now that I've gotten some of the help I needed ***thank you everyone!!!***) is do i HAVE to?

Am I going to be able to make this work? maybe not... but I think it's worth trying to get the maximum depth out of wavetable synthesis, and where that limit is is part of the reasoning of the OP.
jimmyklane
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#18
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
After creating wavetables, how the hell are you supposed to organize them?
the wavetable creator has two folders that come with it "Wavetables" and "Wavetables2" I've just been naming mine like I would any patch or multi (with my initials on the back end) and keeping them in that folder.
#19
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Why wouldn't you just use the same wavetable in two oscillators and detune them like so? Sure it won't quite be the same, but...
Actually, with the Blofeld you can take the oscillators and use two different wave tables with them. So, instead of detuning the oscillators (which you could still do) why not just modulate the wavetable positions the same but have the contents of the wavetables reflect different samples of the same source?

I have to say that there has been some really great info in this thread so far. I am going to have to try some of this stuff out myself with my own Blofeld.
jimmyklane
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#20
27th March 2013
Old 27th March 2013
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpsiegel View Post
Actually, with the Blofeld you can take the oscillators and use two different wave tables with them. So, instead of detuning the oscillators (which you could still do) why not just modulate the wavetable positions the same but have the contents of the wavetables reflect different samples of the same source?

I have to say that there has been some really great info in this thread so far. I am going to have to try some of this stuff out myself with my own Blofeld.
Ok, so "moog WT 1" and "moog WT 2" both wavetables of the SP oscillators changing from saw thru square to pulse, maybe with very slightly different values, or maybe slightly different tuning...or both. That's an excellent idea! I will try that this weekend and see how it works....

I HAVE noted that this is a lot of trouble to emulate a Moog I already own!

I have already sampled all 88 notes of the keyboard at 16 different velocities, so I could always just use the sampler for this specific task.... but in reality the Moog is just proof of concept, since it has a fairly unique sound that I can recognize changes in.
#21
28th March 2013
Old 28th March 2013
  #21
Figured out the organizing about 2 minutes after going to bed last night, which of course meant getting up & spending another half hour with the Blofeld (good thing my wife was already asleep).

Anyway, I thought the WTs were organized (as in, assigning slots) and named in the Blofeld. Silly me, you have to do that in the WT Creator program.

Also spent some time with Kotró László Lehel's editor, going through the Easter soundset. Word of warning: these are considerably louder than the normal presets - nearly ripped my ears off a few times.
jimmyklane
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#22
28th March 2013
Old 28th March 2013
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
Figured out the organizing about 2 minutes after going to bed last night, which of course meant getting up & spending another half hour with the Blofeld (good thing my wife was already asleep).

Anyway, I thought the WTs were organized (as in, assigning slots) and named in the Blofeld. Silly me, you have to do that in the WT Creator program.

Also spent some time with Kotró László Lehel's editor, going through the Easter soundset. Word of warning: these are considerably louder than the normal presets - nearly ripped my ears off a few times.
I wonder what the Filter FM from my Monotribe will sound like as a wavetable? Or even if I can make tables with the drums? I'm quite well versed in synthesis...at least subtractive and FM, but wavetable is truly quite new to me...at least in this manner. Massive is technically a wavetable synth, but it doesn't tend to lead you in the same direction as the Waldorf gear. Very exciting to find something so new to me and have the chance to experiment at my leisure!!!
#23
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #23
A little off topic, but still a newbie Blofeld question: how do you get the Blofeld to NOT RESPOND to program change (ie: changing the program on the controling synth causes the Blo to also change program)?
#24
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #24
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You can do that only in Multi mode, I think (blocking program changes per part)...
#25
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You can do that only in Multi mode, I think (blocking program changes per part)...
Well, that sucks.
jimmyklane
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#26
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
Well, that sucks.
Is there any way to block that signal from your other synth? Many synths have a "send program change" on/off menu item..... Secondly, maybe try reassigning that specific CC in the blofeld? Not sure the latter is possible, but worth a shot!
#27
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjporter View Post
A little off topic, but still a newbie Blofeld question: how do you get the Blofeld to NOT RESPOND to program change (ie: changing the program on the controling synth causes the Blo to also change program)?
One other thing to do if you are using a midi patchbay (in my case a MOTU MidiExpress XT USB) is to create a filter to block out the program change messages either on the inbound port side or at the port the Blofeld is on.

If you don't have a patchbay you can still use a program like MidiOx as an intermediary and have that do the filtering for you. I know this should work in theory but I don't do it only because my patchbays have that feature built in so I can't answer how to best set it up.
#28
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyklane View Post
Is there any way to block that signal from your other synth? Many synths have a "send program change" on/off menu item..... Secondly, maybe try reassigning that specific CC in the blofeld? Not sure the latter is possible, but worth a shot!
Program change is not a CC, so it can't be reassigned.


MIDIOX is a good solution if one doesn't have a patchbay. As for me, my controller is really flexible (Kurzweil PC3K8) so I don't have to worry about program changes firing off unless I really want it.
#29
30th March 2013
Old 30th March 2013
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyklane View Post
Is there any way to block that signal from your other synth? Many synths have a "send program change" on/off menu item....
I had a look already (using my Juno-Di for the Blo) and no such luck.
As for MidiOx, I don't have the computer on when I play & I don't have a midi patch bay, so I'll suffer through for now. Thanks guys.
jimmyklane
Thread Starter
#30
31st March 2013
Old 31st March 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Program change is not a CC, so it can't be reassigned.


MIDIOX is a good solution if one doesn't have a patchbay. As for me, my controller is really flexible (Kurzweil PC3K8) so I don't have to worry about program changes firing off unless I really want it.
Right you are...patch change is not a CC message, it's an RPN, yes? I misspoke, and thank you for the correction!
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