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Hardware sampler with DSD conversion and MacBeth filters
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Karloff70
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#1
1st March 2013
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Hardware sampler with DSD conversion and MacBeth filters

I want a hardware rack sampler with DSD conversion, like on the Korg MR2000S units, analog filters designed by Ken MacBeth and an operating system that resembles an S1000, but with loads of added modulation possibilities (and at least 6 stage envelopes) and at least 10 outs.

Now who's going to build it?
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1st March 2013
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Has anyone figured out DSD in sampling-related context yet or is that just a matter of taking the 2.8MHz clock and speeding it up/slowing it down?
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so you want to sample at a ridiculously high bitrate right? What are the benefits of this, I'm new to DSD.

The filter and modulation ideas are lavvvly though!
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1st March 2013
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sounds like one of those things that would be crazy expensive now, but in 10 years will be a hundred bucks,
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1st March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I want a hardware rack sampler with DSD conversion, like on the Korg MR2000S units, analog filters designed by Ken MacBeth and an operating system that resembles an S1000, but with loads of added modulation possibilities (and at least 6 stage envelopes) and at least 10 outs.

Now who's going to build it?
You could put converters such as the Mytek stereo 192 DAC on the end of an MPC 2500, and then route it's outputs through a small modular with a choice of envelopes, filters, sequencers etc.
You'd have to program the samples in such a way that it makes sense to use with that "backend". Also you'd want to have some control from that MPC over your envelopes, sequencers, VCAs, filters etc. so you'd need to have a tight midi-cv gate going.
apart from the converter DAC which I sold, and that I have an MPC1000 instead of the bigger cousin, that's sort of my setup ATM
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1st March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanderbeanz View Post
so you want to sample at a ridiculously high bitrate right? What are the benefits of this, I'm new to DSD.

...snip....
It's got it's pros and cons.
It's very neutral, perfect to record and playback AD DA inside a closed environment. (I have a modified DSD recorder and use it to record a "final mix" parallel to the normal recorder, and for sampling duties outside or recording something on location. But there's some technical issues to consider when using digital transfer of DSD.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong threads have been written about it. Here's some:
DSD, WDSD and DXD
DSD vs PCM
DSD to PCM - dither now or later?

enjoy
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1st March 2013
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Before popping too much of a bone over DSD, this paper is instructive.
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I was thinking the other day a 6-8 voice sampler with analogue filter and output stages - but with large sample drives would be cool. Poly synths are expensive but you could have a sampler with a huge array of sample sources to build and shape sounds with...large banks of classic synth multisampled Osc etc...

Like an updated Emax. Would be really expensive tho. Maybe Elektron could make something up with a combination of their boxes...

DSD and Macbeth filters might be going a bit far into the realm of impossibility...
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1st March 2013
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Well, I really want something that keeps the tonal essence of something like a sample from a great analog alive as much as humanly possible and then have access to great analog filters to bend it with.

The closest I'll get for now will be when I receive my mpc4000 back from converter modding at BLA. That should keep some tone intact and gives Z8 filters to play with.

But really I want an S1000 with super converters, I suppose Burls would do.... ;-) ....and better envelopes, modulation and analog filters from hell.

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2nd March 2013
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What about an Emulator III?

In any case I hear you... seeing as converter technology/memory/processing have gotten a lot cheaper too... enough VA's, romplers and mono's, hybrid samplers are where it's at..
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2nd March 2013
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Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
What about an Emulator III?

In any case I hear you... seeing as converter technology/memory/processing have gotten a lot cheaper too... enough VA's, romplers and mono's, hybrid samplers are where it's at..
Well, I love me an old, sweet sounding sampler, but none of them are neutral enough to keep intact a fat chunk of a note from a good analog to use as an oscillator to sythesize with. They make it into something else. Something else good, if a nice old box, but if you start with an almighty beefy sound, like I just did when trying to sample a mini-Korg700s, the amount of vibe loss is disheartening.

I want a super sampler with almighty sweet, massive and neutral converters and feck off analog guts. And some outputs.
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2nd March 2013
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to really capture the vibe of analogue gear you have to sample long and round robin...each note 4x at least-ideal world 8x....cant do anything like that with old machines...250mb per patch.
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Well, I love me an old, sweet sounding sampler, but none of them are neutral enough to keep intact a fat chunk of a note from a good analog to use as an oscillator to sythesize with. They make it into something else. Something else good, if a nice old box, but if you start with an almighty beefy sound, like I just did when trying to sample a mini-Korg700s, the amount of vibe loss is disheartening.

I want a super sampler with almighty sweet, massive and neutral converters and feck off analog guts. And some outputs.
Right, I know what you're saying.

Mentioned the EIII because it has the best converters of any of the old stuff I've used. Not completely neutral but no converters are. With good samples as beefy as anything I'd say, including many analog synths.

Of course, I would love a super sampler as you describe.
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2nd March 2013
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Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
Right, I know what you're saying.

Mentioned the EIII because it has the best converters of any of the old stuff I've used. Not completely neutral but no converters are. With good samples as beefy as anything I'd say, including many analog synths.

Of course, I would love a super sampler as you describe.
Closest I have is the EIIIXP, no analog filters but other wise not lightyears away. It's lovely as a sound, but nothing like the source.

So someone reading this, please grab their bag of courage and put such a beast on the market please, pretty please! And put some REALLY serious filters in there, like DO offer Ken Macbeth an in.

Ken are you reading this? Got any programming friends for a sampler OS??? Rip off the S1000 OS, add better envelopes and modulation and your genius filters, stick it in a rack with two dials on the front (but let everything be cc controlled) and give us a SampMac to kill all samplers that went before!!! Pretty please!!!! Doesn't have to be DSD, just really, really good converters.
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2nd March 2013
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This is what you want, but you have to add the MacBeth filters yourself.
Forat F16 Sampler
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2nd March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainesthai View Post
This is what you want, but you have to add the MacBeth filters yourself.
Forat F16 Sampler
No, that is definitely not what I want. That is a drum tool with none of the functionality I am after, and reading the spec and seeing its age I would bet my mother on the fact it has a signature sound to it that I don't want either. I have good sounding old samplers covered. It is thought up as a drum tool. I want something thought up like an analog synth with all the modulation but you can record your own oscillators at a quality where it sounds identical to the source before you start tweaking. So, no, that thing is NOT what I want.

More like a sampling SE Code, with different filters inside, so you get a ladder, maybe a IR3109, etc....and multiple outs. It would be insane.
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Good idea for a product. I will purchase one if someone does this well, provided the price makes sense. Guaranteed.
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2nd March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
No, that is definitely not what I want. That is a drum tool with none of the functionality I am after, and reading the spec and seeing its age I would bet my mother on the fact it has a signature sound to it that I don't want either. I have good sounding old samplers covered. It is thought up as a drum tool. I want something thought up like an analog synth with all the modulation but you can record your own oscillators at a quality where it sounds identical to the source before you start tweaking. So, no, that thing is NOT what I want.

More like a sampling SE Code, with different filters inside, so you get a ladder, maybe a IR3109, etc....and multiple outs. It would be insane.
Then why not use your DAW?
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2nd March 2013
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DAWs are not samplers and editing requires conversion to and fro PCM.
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2nd March 2013
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Originally Posted by mainesthai View Post
Then why not use your DAW?
Because it does not do what I am proposing?

edit: Maybe a more modern way of implementing it would be a separate box with analog filters and VCA's inside which is software controlled and can interface with your DAW and then comes up as a soft sampler.

But that is not what I want. I want an independent piece of hardware with a good amount of outputs. And an ethernet port built in, so it can be run over Copperlan, not just midi.
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Only a mad man will build what you want.
Silent Way and a modular synth will do the same and is much more flexible.


P.S. Read the link in post 7, Vanderkooy and Lipshitz know their stuff.
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Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
edit: Maybe a more modern way of implementing it would be a separate box with analog filters and VCA's inside which is software controlled and can interface with your DAW and then comes up as a soft sampler.
I think thats the most sensible. An output section that could be strapped onto a computer running a soft sampler. That way you could update the computer and use any computer / interface with it...

No one would build such an expensive device all in one - it would prob cost thousands and only a handful of people would buy it...

This is sort of something like what I envisage...didnt work for waldorf tho...

Waldorf AFB-16
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2nd March 2013
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DSD is cool. But sampling with tape deck / delay etc is yum....
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2nd March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
DSD is cool. But sampling with tape deck / delay etc is yum....
That's called a Mellotron.
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2nd March 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainesthai View Post
Only a mad man will build what you want.
Silent Way and a modular synth will do the same and is much more flexible.


P.S. Read the link in post 7, Vanderkooy and Lipshitz know their stuff.
It being DSD isn't even the point though and I am not really in the mood for a geek paper. Just REALLY good converters that keep the integrity of a sample intact. Fully.

And no, Silent Way and a modular will not do the same. At all. Unless you think having a filter per voice inside a separate architecture with modulation and all the same as sending a soft sampler out through one modular filter.

And I'd like to think there are more than several mad men on this site who would buy this thing in a heartbeat if it existed and came in under $5000.

Basically think amazing sounding analog synth with multiple analog filter choices and 8-10 outputs which happens to use samples of top grade as its oscillators. Do you see people struggling to sell analog poly synths that sound amazing??
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2nd March 2013
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Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The closest I'll get for now will be when I receive my mpc4000 back from converter modding at BLA. That should keep some tone intact and gives Z8 filters to play with.
Sounds interesting. What changes are they making and how much do they want for it?
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Sounds interesting. What changes are they making and how much do they want for it?
They are basically doing what they can to make the converters of all ins and outs (10 outs) sound as good as possible.

It's happening as we speak (has been for a while....) and since it is a test mod, i.e. they have not done it before, we came to a deal I won't repeat here. No idea what they will do the mod for afterwards if they end up making it a 'product'.
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