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Making DIVA growl in the Bottom end ala Minimoog
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Ged
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#1
26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Making DIVA growl in the Bottom end ala Minimoog

I'll admit I have hardly had any time recently to really fine tune a decent Moog Bass with that Low end growl - Diva is without a doubt the most convincing Moog Sound in the VST world I've come accross so it's user error in my case - or more the fact I have had limited time to programm sounds.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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DIVA is great but the filters are still missing a bit of that ooomph.

Hook DIVA up to a real Moog filter and I bet you'd get 99% there.

For some things, emulations are just emulations. And like I said, DIVA is up among the BEST.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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for low end bass, i dont use minimoog template. why dont you use ms series filters?
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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for real minimoog growl with a real minimoog, you'd use the feedback technique, ie: a touch of overdrive.

i don't think that there's an emulation of that circuit been made yet. so you won't get that sound spot on.

I would suggest using a pre-amp emulation instead, on an insert of the DIVA channel; such as D-16 Devastor/Decimort, bypass everything but the pre amp section to get some analogue style break up, mix to taste.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
for real minimoog growl with a real minimoog, you'd use the feedback technique, ie: a touch of overdrive.

i don't think that there's an emulation of that circuit been made yet. so you won't get that sound spot on.

I would suggest using a pre-amp emulation instead, on an insert of the DIVA channel; such as D-16 Devastor/Decimort, bypass everything but the pre amp section to get some analogue style break up, mix to taste.
Facepalm! Diva does exactly that.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
I'll admit I have hardly had any time recently to really fine tune a decent Moog Bass with that Low end growl - Diva is without a doubt the most convincing Moog Sound in the VST world I've come accross so it's user error in my case - or more the fact I have had limited time to programm sounds.
I am not familiar with MiniMoog or Diva (I mean - never worked with neither of them) but I am wondering if this growl you are talking about is similar to the sound from the attachment?

Last edited by HrastProgrammer; 27th February 2013 at 08:45 AM.. Reason: Question answered => Attachment removed.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy View Post
Facepalm! Diva does exactly that.
well excuse me for not knowing everything in the world.

+ somehow i doubt they've nailed that effect. it's highly complex. the overload on the mini is something very, very special. so i still stand by my statement that you're not going to get that exact sound... i mean modelling feedback in an analogue circuit with so many variables has got to be unbelievably tough.

surely Ged would have tried this already?, which is why offering another technique to try, is hopefully a usefull suggestion.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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The way feedback is going to sound is highly dependant on oscillator levels, naturally.

I'm pretty sure u-he matched the feedback behavior to the Minimoog they had there.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
surely Ged would have tried this already?, which is why offering another technique to try, is hopefully a usefull suggestion.
Actually he attributes it to user error or not enough time.

Diva absolutely excels at Moog style feedback. Urs heckman is a genius for pulling it off.

GED,
Go look up u-he's diva YouTube tutorials (5 of them, they are like 3 min each). One of them goes into this aspect.
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26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
well excuse me for not knowing everything in the world.

+ somehow i doubt they've nailed that effect. it's highly complex. the overload on the mini is something very, very special. so i still stand by my statement that you're not going to get that sound.
.
You have to be kidding! You entered a thread about an instrument that does Moog style feedback and then admit to not knowing about a plug that does Moog style feedback.

Obviously you've never used diva (or at least not enough to know one of its basic features, and really diva isn't that complicated) then proclaim that it doesn't do Moog style feedback well.

Rule number one: don't take advice from people who don't know what they are talking about.
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26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
i mean modelling feedback in an analogue circuit with so many variables has got to be unbelievably tough.
...and that is EXACTLY what u-he did with industry-standard circuit emulation tool called PSPICE. Get your facts straight before claiming something. It does sound like you didn't even try Diva out, but there you go making sweep statements about how they didn't "get it right". They did.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy View Post
You have to be kidding! You entered a thread about an instrument that does Moog style feedback and then admit to not knowing about a plug that does Moog style feedback.

Obviously you've never used diva (or at least not enough to know one of its basic features, and really diva isn't that complicated) then proclaim that it doesn't do Moog style feedback well.

Rule number one: don't take advice from people that don't know what they are talking about.

ok i misunderstood the question: i took it to mean he was looking for way of getting growl without the use of DIVA. thanks for the shit shovelling, makes me feel great. way to go. cheers.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
well excuse me for not knowing everything in the world.
Dude. This is an internet forum. You should be ashamed of yourself for not knowing everything in the world.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
...and that is EXACTLY what u-he did with industry-standard circuit emulation tool called PSPICE. Get your facts straight before claiming something. It does sound like you didn't even try Diva out, but there you go making sweep statements about how they didn't "get it right". They did.
well that explains the low price of minimoogs then doesnt it. no wonder people are giving them away.

edit: see recnsci's post below. it seems the way the feedback is modelled/implemented it is quite different...
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
ok i misunderstood the question: i took it to mean he was looking for way of getting growl without the use of DIVA. thanks for the shit shovelling, makes me feel great. way to go. cheers.
All good.

If someone shovels shit on one of my favorite synths I'll remove it and return it to the owner.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy View Post
All good.

If someone shovels shit on one of my favorite synths I'll remove it and return it to the owner.
if this is about synth defence let me say at this point that i have nothing against DIVA per say. i'm sure it's a wonderful tool. i acknowledge that it's probably the best all round analogue synth emulation today. and i'm not trying to shovel shit on it. in my mind, my responses have not been doing such.

ps its not all good.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy View Post
All good.

If someone shovels shit on one of my favorite synths I'll remove it and return it to the owner.
Off topic:
Well, Diva is one of my favourite synths (in general, software/hardware/analog/digital) as well, but Mini style feedback around vcf+vca is not quite there.
Some nasty details: first thing, feedback in Mini is from output (after VCA back into VCF), in Diva it's loacal (around just filter). You can modulate FB amount, but it's not quite the same. Second thing, before external input in Mini hits VCF core it goes trough this interesting preamp circuit. That preamp circuit will overload when you patch out to VCF in and this will contribute considerably to the tone and behavior of feedback trick. I can't tell for sure is this modeled in Diva, but based on tone and behavior of moogish VCF in Diva, I would say it is not. Third thing if Mini didn't have this preamp, situation would be much worse. Thing is, we are far away from modeling of situation where input of ladder filter is slammed really hard. Not as in "Diva doesn't go there", but rather "considerably more sophisticated modelling packages fail at such circumstances".
BTW, there are few synths where VCA has so much influence over sound as in Minimoog. And I have no idea was Mini VCA (or any kind of VCA) modelled in Diva, Urs never gave any details regarding that issue.




On topic:
I have no idea what would be exact definition of "growl", but for growl in Diva I would say: Korg VCF, either MK1 or MK2. (those two are best digital filters by far IMHO, and I like them better than some analog filters as well)

ONe trick regarding korgish filtrs in Diva: start with low osc levels, below 20, especialy for MK2. (my default patch is moog oscs with level set at 10 and korg mk2 filter)
Ged
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Guy's guy's calm down man - Let's all be friends!!!

Anyway - here is the Sound (Bass) I'm going on about>>>




I swear there's some chorus on the Bass (Dimension D?) but the main things that baffle me are...That growl on the low notes (I know it's partly Mod wheel Vibrato) and the actual "Thickness" of the sound - it's massive!
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
Guy's guy's calm down man - Let's all be friends!!!

Anyway - here is the Sound (Bass) I'm going on about>>>




I swear there's some chorus on the Bass (Dimension D?) but the main things that baffle me are...That growl on the low notes (I know it's partly Mod wheel Vibrato) and the actual "Thickness" of the sound - it's massive!
classic tune. Im not listening closely at the mo but its worth mentioning that with Diva you get the pure emulation, and on these records you get the Minimoog plus the recording chain which may be part of the sound...console line in/ compressor and EQ...feedback in Diva plus a bit of compression and mid eq might bring out the growl...
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26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HrastProgrammer View Post
I am not familiar with MiniMoog or Diva (I mean - never worked with neither of them) but I am wondering if this growl you are talking about is similar to the sound from the attachment?
No.

The resonance at higher frequencies is way to sharp/thin. It also has a strange random cutoff thing going on, minimoogs are smooth.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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well im gonna go against the grain of this thread so far: growl in minimoog is something that is inherent in its sound in low mids and lows. it is always there. it does not exclusively describe the feedback via external input (i.e. "headphone out trick").

its a sound character atribute for old moogs and their modulars used for ages. and easily heard. a direct result of the design, the circuits and the components used. without going into detail past of my rudimentary comprehension of electronics, the circuits most to blame are the pre-vcf mixer and levels of oscillators entering, the vcf, the vca and their coupling. vca having peticular (desirable) distortion behaviour coming from matched transistors etc etc.

i dunno why exactly, since this this is not rocket science, but its seems one of most elusive things for manufacturers of modern, contemporary analogs to achieve. all the elements of this have been throrougly studied for ages. maybe it is those old transistors, or noisy totally un-hifi opamps like 741. i mean, original SEM definitely growls too, and is full of 741 and 301 opamps.

and seems whatever praised cherished equipment from 70s you open, you run into these little buggers.. be it synths, rack fx, pedals, outboard..




back on topic, to get somewhat into ballpark, yes you could run into an external ladder filter, but you also need a VCA with accurate sound of mini. some of my friends help themselves by using a Neve type pre they already have in the studio.. and it does but hey... its overkill, and for that money you can already pick up the real thing. you could try something cheaper like golden age pre73 but im not sure if that is any good.

tho all these are half baked solutions. its easier and more cost effective to pickup a smaller moog from late 70s. because, even if you have complete minimoogs back end (vcff+vca) it aint gonna sound correct if you feed it oscillators from a va/vsti.. minimoogs oscillators are unlike anything else...an organic being with a life of its own..

they should teach about em in biology class
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
minimoogs oscillators are unlike anything else...an organic being with a life of its own..

they should teach about em in biology class
Nice one. That is indeed the truth, and well put.
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26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
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Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
Nice one. That is indeed the truth, and well put.
Indeed, that is a quote and a half. Nice.

And what's with all the shit shovelling, chaps?
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26th February 2013
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Caveat here is im an amateur producer but in the software world a tiny touch of vcc and decapitator often seems to complement diva.... Im mainly just posting this to stay in touch with the thread tho, after a rocky start it got interesting

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Gearslutz App
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27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
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I've learned so much from golden beers over the years. I think he should be immune to the shit shoveling. And this shit show for that matter. That being said, I've not achieved that sound from Diva itb. Using the ole overdrive pedal on a send gets close though. If someone can get the sound Radiohead gets on their mini from the King of Limbs Live from the Basement sessions, please let us know how.
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27th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
ok i misunderstood the question: i took it to mean he was looking for way of getting growl without the use of DIVA. thanks for the shit shovelling, makes me feel great. way to go. cheers.
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27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
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If someone can get the sound Radiohead gets on their mini from the King of Limbs Live from the Basement sessions, please let us know how.
You have to use PSPICE.

kthanksbye
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27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
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Actually the Feedback control + some noise worked!!! yes!!
Just realized people will read this thread title thinking I want to make Dubstep bass with Diva LOL...
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27th February 2013
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Feels so wrong to just give this away (i want to keep Diva a secret) but if anyone's interested Macprovideo give as a preview an excellent clip of their diva tutorial that explains the bite filter... growl-related (sort of) and makes me want to download the whole vid...

U-he Diva: Diva Demystified Video Tutorial - macProVideo.com
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27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
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Don't know if you've tried this or how useful you'll find it but Diva models saturation when you turn the amp volume knob up and the master down.
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