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Analog is not overhyped!
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Looneytune
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#1
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Analog is not overhyped!

I believe in this place and what some of you guys here have to say.
So after my last silly thread about 4 months ago I decided to spend some real quality time getting to know my analog gear.

I have come to a realization that no matter how good digital can be and sound it just cannot come close to the old vintage analog sound. I am one who used to swear by my Virus for everything and months ago I put a stop to using all my vintage because it was a real pain in the asse!

I am certainly not hating on digital but I now know what you guys mean about analog.
These are just some of the things i discovered.

Analog has a certain high frequency which is not irritating to the ear, I felt I could really push it hard without it sounding harsh to the ear. This is something I could not achieve with my digital hardware or software.

Low frequency bass again I could swear on the Virus for this a few months back but again analog proved to be the real winner here.
I forgot how simple it is to achieve a real nice punching sounding mono bass with a trusty analog.

Anyway the moral to the story is whilst I love digital I have discovered why so much love and obsession behind analog and why it is so highly praised.
My Minimoog Model D has just come back from service and this is what promoted the thread.

Shame I always had these synths and never really bothered with them.
I will now finally invest in that Jupiter 8 I have always wanted- Before I wanted this as a collectors item but now the reason for wanting one is much more then that.
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30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Nothing is overhyped

real analog = best analog
virtual anaog = best virtual analog
digital = best digital

they all sound good. They all have their applications. I recently have been playing my Z1, K5000S and fizmo and can I say I love the sound of all of these especially the Z1, K5000S and fizmo. Each really gives my ear something new and different to like.

vanilla ice cream = best vanilla ice cream
chocolate ice cream = best chocolate ice cream.

synths are just like ice cream. they are flavours and like them all.
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#3
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Ok ok, we all like the sound of vinyl and hate mp3.
The guy that brought up the "it ant analogue unless it's on tape/vinyl" didn't quite know how to get his point across... Or he's trolling.. can we move on now?

@loonytunes

Playing with the king of mono synths is always going to make you believe.
The bass that thing makes is unreal

Regarding wanting a Jupiter 8.. go for it. It's a timeless synth and it will blow you away much like the minimoog does. These are the kings for a reason. And it ain't because they're expensive.

2 points to make

1) not every analogue synth sounds as good as the minimoog or jp8

2) bro! If you're getting the Jupiter you HAVE to get the pro5 also.. They go together like beer and cigarettes.
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30th December 2012
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Originally Posted by Looneytune View Post
My Minimoog Model D has just come back from service and this is what promoted the thread.
You're a lucky to have a Mini. Using a machine with discrete VCO's - anyone will notice the difference. That was too easy.

There's a brand (which i won't name) that is making DCO based analog synths. Boy, i hear nothing analogue in them. Nothing! I swear i could pull it off with a freeware VSTi and a cheap tube preamp.
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OK so now we can all go back to the good ol' "VCO" vs "DCO" shit!
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30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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come on guys..leave the kid the fun of seeing the truth now..

sure there are lovely digital synths. thanks to the phantastic sound design possebilitys.. but for plain subtractive analog just beats it and does sound better.. thats just the truth and it only gets a debate when people try to bend this truth or relativate it. Most people i know just enjoy booth worlds..but not a single one..äh..except of a singel one they all think that analog synths do sound better for the sounds they can do.. VA´s are only there to teach the digital synths some of the analog sound tricks.. so they are a compromise.. when you cary them on tour you might like that compromise a lot.. at least when you have no roadies.
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30th December 2012
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I agree with Don. As a strictly analogue synth user, I must say, a lot of companies are jumping on the bandwagon claiming something is 100 percent analogue. One only has to listen to the sound and the clinicalness of the OSC's to know right off the bat its a DCO. Listen carefully to the filter. Any zippiness when you tweak that cutoff? Yeah thats probably a model, or something. MAYBE the amp is a VCA just to warm up the final sound, but thats it. There are ALOT of companies doing this right now, and its crap. Again, compare a modern poly to my P5. Or better yet, compare the Voyager to my Model D. Its night and day.

Having said that, not everyone wants all analogue all the time. They want the tactile programming, but not the sound. For them, these modern devices are brilliant. They definitely have a unique sound, which for sure has its place. Its not that analogue is overhyped, its shoved down the face of everyone as being better. Its better for me yes, but not for everyone. Thats why I always encourage everyone who is new to music, or never played with true analogue to try one! Give it a shot. And I dont mean dick around on a mates A6 or something. Give an SH101 a spin. So many people on GS have insanely focused opinions on gear, based solely on Youtube vids, which is mildly hilarious. Until you develop an informed opinion, you cant tell me this is better than that. Or that CEM rules over Curtis. Just play the damn things, and start forming opinions on whether or not analogue is right for you. And if it isnt, dont come on here and say OMG GAIZ ANALOGUE SUXXXX because its lame. Just because you cant get to grips with analogue, doesnt mean no one can. Thats a selfish point of view, and a real let down for people looking for honest opinions on equipment.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
... a lot of companies are jumping on the bandwagon claiming something is 100 percent analogue. One only has to listen to the sound and the clinicalness of the OSC's to know right off the bat its a DCO. Listen carefully to the filter. Any zippiness when you tweak that cutoff? Yeah thats probably a model, or something. MAYBE the amp is a VCA just to warm up the final sound, but thats it. There are ALOT of companies doing this right now, and its crap.
lol, what? exactly which companies do you think are putting out DCO synths with "modeled" filters? a lot of companies doing what? selling DCO synths as analog, as if they weren't?

wtf?
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Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
lol, what? exactly which companies do you think are putting out DCO synths with "modeled" filters?
Waldorf Pulse has a "model" of a Moog filter. And it's just that, a model and absolutely nothing soundwise compared to the real Moog filter. But hey, it's made of analogue components if that pleases you. There are a lot of tricks one can pull in electronics.
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30th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
Listen carefully to the filter. Any zippiness when you tweak that cutoff? Yeah thats probably a model, or something.
Oh no, that is either "they used 8-10 bit DAC to generate VCF freq CV" or/and "they used 8-10 bit ADC to capture VCF freq pot on front panel". IN both cases VCF as in analog VCF.
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30th December 2012
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Originally Posted by alexp View Post
Just play the damn things, and start forming opinions on whether or not analogue is right for you ...
+1000

This is ALL that matters.

Back in the 80s, when everyone was going crazy for everything digital (including myself: my first synth was a DX-7) I quietly said to myself "You know? I like the sound of analog synths better". And nearly thirty years down the road, I still feel the same way.

For me, the whole DCO vs VCO thing is absurd when taken out of context. If anything, the debate should be more about vintage DCO vs modern DCO, or vintage VCO vs modern VCO (or simply about design -- like what is it that makes one synth sound "better" than another). My main gripe with modern DCO synths like Dave Smith's is that I feel they don't sound as good as my old Rolands or Matrix-1000s. I honestly wish they did. But they don't. For me.

I was seriously excited about the P-08 when it first came out and spent an evening with one in a friend's studio. I left disappointed. Of course, it goes without saying the P-08 is a "more capable synth" than any of my worn out, tired and beat-up old vintage DCO synths -- but more capable of what?! If I felt the raw sound -- the raw character was lacking -- what use did I have for those capabilities?

Of course, this is all entirely subjective. Which leads back to alexp's post. You just have to play these things. Hear them for yourself. See if they bond with you. Or not.
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Jubonacc....

Get an idea of what your trying to defend before defending it. Nice try though.

Recnsci - Yes and no. The zipper effect is due to the dsp not being fast enough to keep up with changes. Digital is slow, analogue is much much faster. For example, a VST within a DAW can only filter data at about 10,000 samples per second, using FFT convolution. Even simple op amps can operate at 100 kHz to 1 MHz, 10 to 100 times as fast as the digital system, hence a much smoother filter. You can hear the difference.

Digital also has terrible dynamic range. Amplitude dynamic range is no contest when your dealing with analogue vs digital. A very basic op amp has a dynamic range that FAR exceeds the best ADC you can get.

alexP

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Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
+1000

This is ALL that matters.

Back in the 80s, when everyone was going crazy for everything digital (including myself: my first synth was a DX-7) I quietly said to myself "You know? I like the sound of analog synths better". And nearly thirty years down the road, I still feel the same way.

For me, the whole DCO vs VCO thing is absurd when taken out of context. If anything, the debate should be more about vintage DCO vs modern DCO, or vintage VCO vs modern VCO (or simply about design -- like what is it that makes one synth sound "better" than another). My main gripe with modern DCO synths like Dave Smith's is that I feel they don't sound as good as my old Rolands or Matrix-1000s. I honestly wish they did. But they don't. For me.

I was seriously excited about the P-08 when it first came out and spent an evening with one in a friend's studio. I left disappointed. Of course, it goes without saying the P-08 is a "more capable synth" than any of my worn out, tired and beat-up old vintage DCO synths -- but more capable of what?! If I felt the raw sound -- the raw character was lacking -- what use did I have for those capabilities?

Of course, this is all entirely subjective. Which leads back to alexp's post. You just have to play these things. Hear them for yourself. See if they bond with you. Or not.
Well said!! :D People today rely to much on other peoples opinions instead of forming their own. Its laziness at its worst.


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#13
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cixelsyd View Post
Nothing is overhyped

real analog = best analog
virtual anaog = best virtual analog
digital = best digital
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Amen.


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Originally Posted by alexp View Post
Get an idea of what your trying to defend before defending it. Nice try though.
defend? huh? you say there's "a lot" of companies doing (things?) that are "complete crap". modeled filters? then you bring up Voyager vs Mini?

try defining exactly what it is you're 'attacking' before making blanket statements about ALOT (sic) of companies. you make it sound like there's companies producing synths with DCOs and digitally modeled filters (??), and that the Moog Voyager is one of them.

explain yourself.
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Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
defend? huh? you say there's "a lot" of companies doing (things?) that are "complete crap". modeled filters? then you bring up Voyager vs Mini?

try defining exactly what it is you're 'attacking' before making blanket statements about ALOT (sic) of companies. you make it sound like there's companies producing synths with DCOs and digitally modeled filters (??), and that the Moog Voyager is one of them.

explain yourself.
I don't explain myself to anyone. Do some research and stop relying on other people to provide information. Its lazy.




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#17
30th December 2012
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I think analog is getting absolete even for people who are just passionate for 'that "flavour", recently in this very own board there was an A/B on TAL uno and a real Juno, the difference was very subtle and probably not noticiable in a mix context. And i've seen other ones in the same situation.

In a few years analog emulation will probably just be sonically identical, and there will be nothing to justify buying one over a digital.

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30th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Waldorf Pulse has a "model" of a Moog filter.
Great. Now this will spread without quotation marks all over ze nets and without actual point you've passed in very convoluted form ( I'm a bit puzzled how the hell Waldorf and Elektron managed to make such a squeaky/screechy ladders).

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For example, a VST within a DAW can only filter data at about 10,000 samples per second, using FFT convolution
No VSTi use FFT convolution for VCF emulation. And some of them do filter calculations at 200000 or more samples/seconds. Zipper is due the control signal processing and has very similar effect for analog and digital filters. And the fact that most of plugin designer ignored CV/Env/LFO generation issues for a very long time was one of the things that gave bad name to plugin/digital synths. Zipper is caused by low resolution/sample rate of control signals and inadequate conditioning of control signals befor they hit VCF in analogs or core filter algo in digital domain.
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30th December 2012
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Originally Posted by alexp View Post
Jubonacc....

Get an idea of what your trying to defend before defending it. Nice try though.

Recnsci - Yes and no. The zipper effect is due to the dsp not being fast enough to keep up with changes. Digital is slow, analogue is much much faster. For example, a VST within a DAW can only filter data at about 10,000 samples per second, using FFT convolution. Even simple op amps can operate at 100 kHz to 1 MHz, 10 to 100 times as fast as the digital system, hence a much smoother filter. You can hear the difference.

Digital also has terrible dynamic range. Amplitude dynamic range is no contest when your dealing with analogue vs digital. A very basic op amp has a dynamic range that FAR exceeds the best ADC you can get.

alexP
Sorry but you're talking absolute nonsense, both your statements about dynamic range and digital being slow are completely wrong.
You really think an opamp gives you more than 144db of dynamic range? Or that you'd be able to hear it if it did??
Also VSTs treat data at the DAW sample rate or more. Do you know anyone who uses a sample rate of 10kHz? Neither do I.
And what does FFT convolution have to do with anything? I think you're just throwing out random words here.

Finally zipper effects tend to come from low bit depth rather than low sample rates, neither of which would happen in a properly designed VST.
In a properly designed hardware synth with digital envelopes the DAC output would be filtered if required to remove any stepping that would result in zipper noise, and you wouldn't be able to hear the difference with an analogue envelope.
Note that doesnt mean that some synths havent been poorly designed, but that has nothing to do with digital being inhrently bad.

Please stop spreading misinformation.
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i agree looneytunes!

analog is not overhyped at all
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Originally Posted by recnsci View Post
( I'm a bit puzzled how the hell Waldorf and Elektron managed to make such a squeaky/screechy ladders).
In Pulse its just a simple transistor array (probably the cheapest one they could find). The original Moog uses transistors where each probably cost the same as the whole array if not more. Not that i dislike Waldorf Pulse, in fact i use it daily, but i tend to avoid applying its resonance. There's something that's just not right about it.

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Great. Now this will spread without quotation marks all over ze nets
I believe that those who discuss ladder filters - know how to read schematics.
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Well said!! :D People today rely to much on other peoples opinions instead of forming their own. Its laziness at its worst.
It's more than that. Most of us are genetically hardwired for group behaviour. We seek the acceptance of our peers to be part of the gang and to not feel being left out. Only small percentage of people actually stray away from this kind of behaviour and do whatever they like. These are the ones who most often work as test cases for Darwinism. Some of them find out some new, cool and useful things. Some of them get killed by a lion when trying to ride it through the gates of the local zoo...
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It's more than that. Most of us are genetically hardwired for group behaviour. We seek the acceptance of our peers to be part of the gang and to not feel being left out. Only small percentage of people actually stray away from this kind of behaviour and do whatever they like. These are the ones who most often work as test cases for Darwinism. Some of them find out some new, cool and useful things. Some of them get killed by a lion when trying to ride it through the gates of the local zoo...
The ones not killed by a lion are the ones that favorably stand out of the crowd and make history.
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When I play digital synthesizers I think of 1's and 0's. I think about the rules set by a person that tell me what I can and cannot do with the sound. All that I hear coming out of my speakers is octets and restrictions!

When I play analog synthesizers I think of valence electrons, current, and paths of least resistance. I think about the world being imbalanced and analog synthesizers make the world whole and as it should. It completes the circle of life.

If robots were created that were identical to humans every way but you knew the it was a robot, would you care if it was human or not?

This is where I post some Keanu / Matrix meme?
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The ones not killed by a lion are the ones that favorably stand out of the crowd and make history.
Exactly. And then everyone (the public) tries to imitate the first ones success. That's how the "How do I sound like artist X?" threads are born.
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Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
In Pulse its just a simple transistor array (probably the cheapest one they could find). The original Moog uses transistors where each probably cost the same as the whole array if not more. Not that i dislike Waldorf Pulse, in fact i use it daily, but i tend to avoid applying its resonance. There's something that's just not right about it.
Really? Please read this: Waldorf-User FAQ | Pulse's Inside

Then, maybe this is totally wrong: "The Inside of a Waldorf Pulse: Here you see a detail of the filter using two CA3046 transistor arrays (5 transistors each) and some of those discrete transistors"........."The Moog Source used one of these CA3046 transistor array chips as well for the needed matched pair of transistors on top and bottom of the famous Moog ladder filter. The OP-amps below the push-button plastic cap are the three VCAs: one for the volume and two for the panning."
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Originally Posted by projectwoofer View Post
Really? Please read this: Waldorf-User FAQ | Pulse's Inside
Which part of my quote is incorrect?

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Originally Posted by lysander View Post
In a properly designed hardware synth....

(cut)
Where is that synthesizer?

Care to tell me the brand and model of this synthezier?

I'm curious to try it.

Where can i buy one?
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FWIW, I really couldn't care less, synths are synths, and I just love synths, ANY synth; and I'll make music and sounds with any synth too. I honestly have zero preference when it comes to analog or digital synths, when I like a synth, I like it no matter what, there are things of course I prefer on a synth (like aftertouch, a good U.I., patch memory, etc.), but when it comes to sound generation I simply don't care. I've been able to create some really good songs and patches on "shitty" synths and not so good ones on "good" synths and vice-verse; I've favored digital over analog on a number of tracks as well as the other way around; my favorite synth is a damn Korg R3 for crying out loud!, not because it sounds fatter, more analog, more organic, alive or whatever; it's because I can make literally ANY sound I can imagine on that thing, I "feel it" and I'm rewarded for that (I feel I'm also there with the Evolver, but not quite yet).

I usually tend to avoid these debates of analog vs digital because I simply don't get it, that's it, I just don't get it; beyond the obvious taste factor, these arguments make no sense to me cause I'll be damned if any of you quit music because of a lack of analog gear.
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Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Which part of my quote is incorrect?
"In Pulse its just a simple transistor array (probably the cheapest one they could find). The original Moog uses transistors where each probably cost the same as the whole array if not more."

They apparently use the exact same as the Source. Unless if by "the original Moog", you mean the Minimoog...
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Originally Posted by kraku View Post
Exactly. And then everyone (the public) tries to imitate the first ones success. That's how the "How do I sound like artist X?" threads are born.
So it is an endless cycle?

I like people like Moby. There is interview from the Play era where he says some stuff like "I never time-stretch really. I don't care about changing the pitch. If I have a drum sample and want it to be a little bit faster, I just speed it up and sacrifice the original pitch. I've never understood why people worry so much about maintaining the original pitch. If you slow it down the pitch gets lower, if you speed it up the pitch gets higher -- big deal!"

Also listed his gear, lots of digital gear and those were not even gearslutz approved. Including a Casio CZ101 and many Yamaha ones, but not even a DX7.
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