What are some good exercises to help in creating/copying a sound?
Hey all,
So I've been messing around with NI's Massive synth and following some youtube tutorials on how to copy certain sounds.
Ex.
^In this video, and all the other videos on youtube, the "teacher" explains how to make the sound but not the process of how they dissect the sound they hear and what key elements they are listening for, for when they re-create it and so forth.
If I want to copy a sound, I'm not sure where to start...
I have the realllllly basic ideas down like is it a monophonic or polyphonic soundetc etc. but I'm still really lost
My question is how do you go about copying a sound you hear from an artist? Like what are the basic steps and what are you listening for?
Also, What are some exercises I should do that will help me in learning to replicate/create my own sounds OR what did you personally do to help yourself get better at replicating sounds you hear?
Music is about discovery .. not copying.
If you actually try or care.. you'll figure it out.
I was looking for something along the lines like "listen for this this and this.....then try and figure out this...."
or "take a sound you like and try doing this this and this.." but seeing that your pretentious answer doesn't help me at all, i might as well say this:
my rebuttal to your worthless answer is that literally EVERY great musician copied someone to some extent. I may not know which EXACT artist copied who, but I do know a significant amount of popular past and present artists who sampled artists before them and so forth. there is nothing wrong with hearing a sound I like and using it to make my own music. I can try to copy a sound all I want but if I don't have any basic skills or knowledge of getting there, its pointless.
Before i want to get more advanced in sound design and start coming up with my own sounds, I have to know how to create basic sounds or figure out how they are made, WHICH is done by copying other sounds. By "discovering" how artists I like make their sounds, I can build off that. Its about building a foundation before building a fcuking sky scraper.
sorry that most dips on youtube make bad self-indulgent videos that don't really educate. They tend to have no idea what they are talking about.. and are just needlessly overcomplicated.. I couldn't handle watching the whole video but it seemed to just be a simple sound effect..
to learning how to copy a painting .. you have to learn about to hold a brush. is that pretentious enough?
more like..
Learn what envelopes really do.. specifically to the pitch and filter... for this sound you could just use an LFO on the pitch btw.. but not all synths are created equal.
My question is how do you go about copying a sound you hear from an artist? Like what are the basic steps and what are you listening for?
Also, What are some exercises I should do that will help me in learning to replicate/create my own sounds OR what did you personally do to help yourself get better at replicating sounds you hear?
Basically.. according to this you have it backwards.. sounds like you don't have anything really hands on to mess around with..
Buy a synth.. a monosynth with no patch memory.. you'll learn.
You can always sell it later.
And I mean, I have been reading what ever articles I can find on sound and how all those parts like ADSR, filters, LFOs work but I am having trouble applying it to when I want to create something in my head or re-create something I hear...
that's why you need hands on experience... when I mean "hands" I physically mean your hands. a MIDI controller might help.. and be cheap... but it would really help to have a friend help you set it up.
Buy a synth.. a monosynth with no patch memory.. you'll learn.
You can always sell it later.
That would be the first step, if you don't already have one. Or a polysynth, even better.
Then you grab this synth and listen precisely for the raw elements like osc waveforms, filter types, LFO types, FM, ADSRs etc., how they sound in mono or poly sounds. Learn that by heart.
And then you go back to the sound you want to copy and listen for those raw elements (like a soup you want to recreate - you need to be able to recognize the taste of pepper, salt, oregano and basil first).
Mix those ingredients together in your synth, and with a bit of experience (OK, make that lots of experience) and a bit of luck you might end up with your desired sound. And with a little more luck you'll end up with something better or more suitable for your task.
One more thing: If you want to create a bass sound, don't start with a different bass patch, because that will make you stick to that bass sound and make it less an adventure.
Start with a lush string pad or a wild FX sound and shape that into your desired bass sound. That will help you in learning your synth even better and faster, and your sounds, even your "copied" sounds will end up being your sounds.
What about a virtual synth like Massive? Do I really need to go out and buy hardware (being that I am a broke college student)?
Massive is good enough and awesome, ignore djugel. The only thing he's right about is that it's easier if you don't have to use the mouse to actually hear notes; you need the mouse to adjust the settings. Buying a monosynth for a broke budget is good when you were broke in the late 90s, because then monosynths were cheap, and pretty much everyone over 30 forgot that this is no longer the case and the halcyon days are over, and this place is filled with people who missed their shot at stardom and are over 30 and just wish the entirety of current electronic music would go away.
Feinstrom's advice is solid and in the vein of what I recommend. Reverse-engineering sounds starts with stripping away the effects; this is easy with reverb and delay, a bit harder with chorus and flanger, and pretty damn hard with distortion because it mushes everything toghether.
The easiest part is the volume; does the sound fade in and take a long time to fade out (and this is why mentally stripping the effects away is important) - you need to know whether it's a short blip of a sound and a dense reverb, or whether you're actually hearing the sound fade out. Then you're looking at a "pad" type of envelope - long attack, long release, maximum decay and sustain.
You also have "gate" envelopes - zero attack, zero release, max decay/sustain; these sounds start and stop as soon as you hold the key. Then there are also "pluck" envelopes - zero attack, decay at 40-50%, sustain at zero, and release either at zero or at 30% or so. Those are the basic envelope shapes and they're good enough to cover most sounds you hear in popular music.
That covers the amplifier/volume envelope part. Next step: filters. Lowpass: muffled sound, kind of like standing in front of a club with the doors closed. All you hear is the oomph of the bass. Highpass: put your earbuds of your mp3 player somewhere on the table and stand somewhere else in the room; all you hear is chittering. Bandpass: a nasal sound; when you turn a lowpass up it gets brighter, but with bandpass, turning it up makes the sound stay "lean".
That's all you have to know about filters for now. Thing is, these have a big effect on sounds that have distortion put over 'm, so study the filter types.
Last but not least: oscillators! As Feinstrom says, learn combinations by heart. Osc 1 saw, osc 2 saw: what does it sound like? What does it sound like when osc 2 is slightly detuned? What if it's detuned to fifths? What if it's detuned with an octave? Learn those combinations by heart; saw-saw, square-square, saw-square, every possible basic waveform combination should be known to you in every combination of detuning. You don't need flash cards, but it's like learning multiplication below 10x10 - a requirement that allows you to tackle -every- multiplication in the decimal system without trouble.
Producers are lazy and will not go out of their way to use the complex waveforms unless you're dealing with dubstep. Dance/pop producers are especially lazy and the only reason their simple 2 osc saw patch will sound awesome and yours won't is because of the mix and the composition.
Don't "mess". Experiment. Don't move 5 knobs at a time; if you have no clue how a car works, it's a recipe for smashing into a wall. First try the accelerator; you hear what that does. When you're standing still, the brakes seem to have no effect; those only work when moving. It's the same with synths: some things appear to do nothing, but that's just because the other part is not enabled. Read pop sound sources in my signature; it's got lots of screenshots and mp3s and useful info instead of self-indulgent crap you have to wait 10 minutes for.
Lastly:
Embedding works like this: when you are looking at the video, there's a part in the URL that says "JFEBhdKKbNk" - it comes right after "?v="
The part after the question mark tells the Youtube site (or any other site) to do certain things - in this case "v" stands for "video", so it's "show the video with the (unique) label "JFEBhdKKbNk". That's the only thing the Gearslutz forum software understands when you are embedding a video; it has no clue what to do with the rest because it's just not so smart.
Stuff like "&list=PLC9DA20B5FBC15D5E" is useful for Youtube, but not for the GS forum software; it has no clue what it means, so that's why it trips up.
__________________ For all the intelligence and knowledge that technology empowers us with, the lazy and stupid is amplified along with it (Staticstarter) Threads to check out:Chord Generators & Tips | Pop Sound Sources
Massive is good enough and awesome, ignore djugel. The only thing he's right about is that it's easier if you don't have to use the ...............snip.. for brevity.
Great post
Sent from my GT-I9100P using Gearslutz App
Last edited by Reptil; 27th December 2012 at 01:58 AM..
Reason: cut quote short - for legibillity ;-)
... if you have no clue how a car works, it's a recipe for smashing into a wall. First try the accelerator; you hear what that does. When you're standing still, the brakes seem to have no effect; those only work when moving. It's the same with synths: some things appear to do nothing, but that's just because the other part is not enabled.
i'd agree that buying a simple mono (or poly) hardware synth just to learn on when you're already using a DAW and Massive would be a bad idea on a budget. what might be a good idea based on that is grabbing a more simple (free or cheap) softsynth to really get your head around the basic functions. even having years of experience with synths, i don't exactly find Massive's interface to be 'intuitive' and would probably find it pretty daunting if i were just starting out.
i'd agree that buying a simple mono (or poly) hardware synth just to learn on when you're already using a DAW and Massive would be a bad idea on a budget. what might be a good idea based on that is grabbing a more simple (free or cheap) softsynth to really get your head around the basic functions. even having years of experience with synths, i don't exactly find Massive's interface to be 'intuitive' and would probably find it pretty daunting if i were just starting out.
just typing the name and "VST" into Google should come up with download links, don't have time myself at the moment.
EDIT: ahh, you don't already have Massive? what exactly do you have now?
I do have Massive...
I also have a MIDI keyboard etc etc.
As for a simpler synth, my friend has an old copy of reason, I'll start messing with Subtractor or something.
Thanks for the help!
Massive is good enough and awesome, ignore djugel. The only thing he's right about is that it's easier if you don't have to use the mouse to actually hear notes; you need the mouse to adjust the settings. Buying a monosynth for a broke budget is good when you were broke in the late 90s, because then monosynths were cheap, and pretty much everyone over 30 forgot that this is no longer the case and the halcyon days are over, and this place is filled with people who missed their shot at stardom and are over 30 and just wish the entirety of current electronic music would go away.
Feinstrom's advice is solid and in the vein of what I recommend. Reverse-engineering sounds starts with stripping away the effects; this is easy with reverb and delay, a bit harder with chorus and flanger, and pretty damn hard with distortion because it mushes everything toghether.
The easiest part is the volume; does the sound fade in and take a long time to fade out (and this is why mentally stripping the effects away is important) - you need to know whether it's a short blip of a sound and a dense reverb, or whether you're actually hearing the sound fade out. Then you're looking at a "pad" type of envelope - long attack, long release, maximum decay and sustain.
You also have "gate" envelopes - zero attack, zero release, max decay/sustain; these sounds start and stop as soon as you hold the key. Then there are also "pluck" envelopes - zero attack, decay at 40-50%, sustain at zero, and release either at zero or at 30% or so. Those are the basic envelope shapes and they're good enough to cover most sounds you hear in popular music.
That covers the amplifier/volume envelope part. Next step: filters. Lowpass: muffled sound, kind of like standing in front of a club with the doors closed. All you hear is the oomph of the bass. Highpass: put your earbuds of your mp3 player somewhere on the table and stand somewhere else in the room; all you hear is chittering. Bandpass: a nasal sound; when you turn a lowpass up it gets brighter, but with bandpass, turning it up makes the sound stay "lean".
That's all you have to know about filters for now. Thing is, these have a big effect on sounds that have distortion put over 'm, so study the filter types.
Last but not least: oscillators! As Feinstrom says, learn combinations by heart. Osc 1 saw, osc 2 saw: what does it sound like? What does it sound like when osc 2 is slightly detuned? What if it's detuned to fifths? What if it's detuned with an octave? Learn those combinations by heart; saw-saw, square-square, saw-square, every possible basic waveform combination should be known to you in every combination of detuning. You don't need flash cards, but it's like learning multiplication below 10x10 - a requirement that allows you to tackle -every- multiplication in the decimal system without trouble.
Producers are lazy and will not go out of their way to use the complex waveforms unless you're dealing with dubstep. Dance/pop producers are especially lazy and the only reason their simple 2 osc saw patch will sound awesome and yours won't is because of the mix and the composition.
Don't "mess". Experiment. Don't move 5 knobs at a time; if you have no clue how a car works, it's a recipe for smashing into a wall. First try the accelerator; you hear what that does. When you're standing still, the brakes seem to have no effect; those only work when moving. It's the same with synths: some things appear to do nothing, but that's just because the other part is not enabled. Read pop sound sources in my signature; it's got lots of screenshots and mp3s and useful info instead of self-indulgent crap you have to wait 10 minutes for.
Lastly:
Embedding works like this: when you are looking at the video, there's a part in the URL that says "JFEBhdKKbNk" - it comes right after "?v="
The part after the question mark tells the Youtube site (or any other site) to do certain things - in this case "v" stands for "video", so it's "show the video with the (unique) label "JFEBhdKKbNk". That's the only thing the Gearslutz forum software understands when you are embedding a video; it has no clue what to do with the rest because it's just not so smart.
Stuff like "&list=PLC9DA20B5FBC15D5E" is useful for Youtube, but not for the GS forum software; it has no clue what it means, so that's why it trips up.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSE! This was exactly what I was looking for! THANK YOU for pointing me in the right direction and providing me with some basic resources. I reallly appreciate it and hopefully, you can believe me when I say you didn't waste your time writing this post and that I will work hard in trying to get this whole sound design business down.
Just learn the basics of the synthesis type you are interested, then start creating patches...With the experience when you listen to something you will know what is going on.
Massive is good enough and awesome, ignore djugel.
Didn't say it was bad... just need a good knobby controller and ironically some knowledge to set it up in a logical way.. kinda hard to do if you're starting with nothing.
To be honest.. the best way to learn is a synth with no patch memory or a true MANUEL mode.
Hey dude. I've got NI's Massive (I'm still rocking Komplete FIVE) LOL and while I learned a lot of the basis of synthesis and how to make sounds from Reason, I would seriously suggest reading the Getting Started guide AND the manual and going through it and doing what it says with Massive while you're reading it. I know this sounds like a snarky or sarcastic or blatantly obvious thing, but seriously man no joke, I can tell you that once I read the manual for Reason my understanding of synthesis AND what I was able to do with it went up a hundred fold, no joke, and I think the same thing will happen for you with Massive. Good luck.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer
Ahhh...John Cage. The ultimate troll.
Using and abusing Reason 4.0 (with tons of ReFills) and Logic 9 (with tons of soft synths, VSTi's and plug-ins)
via
a Yamaha S80 (with 2 FC7's, an FC5, an FC3, and a BC3a) and a Behringer BCR2000
on
a 4GB 2.53GHz Intel Core Duo Mac Mini
with
AKG K55 headphones or M-Audio BX5a Deluxe monitors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderton
Just remember...machines don't kill music, people do.
Hey dude. I've got NI's Massive (I'm still rocking Komplete FIVE) LOL and while I learned a lot of the basis of synthesis and how to make sounds from Reason, I would seriously suggest reading the Getting Started guide AND the manual and going through it and doing what it says with Massive while you're reading it. I know this sounds like a snarky or sarcastic or blatantly obvious thing, but seriously man no joke, I can tell you that once I read the manual for Reason my understanding of synthesis AND what I was able to do with it went up a hundred fold, no joke, and I think the same thing will happen for you with Massive. Good luck.
I did follow the Massive manual. I understand ADSR pretty well, what the filters do and what not, I am just having trouble piecing it all together, etc etc.
Gonna go through it again though. Thanks for the input!
I did follow the Massive manual. I understand ADSR pretty well, what the filters do and what not, I am just having trouble piecing it all together, etc etc.
Gonna go through it again though. Thanks for the input!
Learn the basic patches like bass, strings, wood, brass, supersaw, keys etc. everything else is just derivative...
Thank God Yoozer replied! I'd feel obligated if he hadn't.
One more thing I would add is to follow Feingentron and Yoozerwoozy's advice - and sorry, kind of typing half awake, probly like being drunk or something. But sure is fun, anyhow, I'm digressing.
Err... follow their advice to start. Work with really basic sounds to start, like two oscillators through a single lowpass filter and amp/whatever the output dealy is you modulate with an envelope. Detune, make fifths and octaves. Play with the volume balance so you catch how the louder OSC sounds when it's an octave lower, then an octave higher. Make it two octaves. Turn resonance to zero and play with the filter, then add resonance bit by bit and play with it, and... good grief, I'm just repeating what Yoozer said. Blegh.
Anyhow, next, poke around for tutorials on programming synthesizers on YouTube, here, Musicplayer forums, Harmony Central, anywhere. You should find some which help clue you in on how to emullate things like clarinets, flutes, strings, brass, pianos, drum sounds, what makes a good pad, bass, lead sound, etc. The waveforms you use are critical into making you think "clarinet" instead of "oboe," "strings" or "kick drum." Also filter and ENV settings. You'll learn that with synthy sounds, there are often a few ways to get what you want. Learn them all. Programming is like painting with sound tools, and when you think you have a good grasp of things, then it's time to start programming your brains out. With experience, you'll start having a lot of fun, and your sounds will suggest music for them. Likewise, your music will suggest the sounds it wants.
Have fun, and hopefully this made sense and I haven't made a fuel of myself. Thank heaven I'm a non-smoker...
I did follow the Massive manual. I understand ADSR pretty well, what the filters do and what not, I am just having trouble piecing it all together, etc etc.
Gonna go through it again though. Thanks for the input!
Well, if you are a beginner in virtual synths and synthetis in general, i do not recommend Massive to start with because it is quite complex some times and sort of a geeky synth to start with, if you want to have similar sounds (eg presets) to use i'll recommend reFX Nexus, and Lenar Digital Sylenth.
They pretty much cover the standard synth which you have the osc, having filther adsr, amp adsr, cutoff and you can easy make different sounds from presets in removing effetcts such as arp, delay, reverb etc.
Also what me personally helped to bash 2 flys with one hit, trying the reFX Vanguard. It is a simple synth which gives you a great basis to get the functionality of a synth quickly, and also you can create different presets quite fast.
Thank God Yoozer replied! I'd feel obligated if he hadn't.
One more thing I would add is to follow Feingentron and Yoozerwoozy's advice - and sorry, kind of typing half awake, probly like being drunk or something. But sure is fun, anyhow, I'm digressing.
Err... follow their advice to start. Work with really basic sounds to start, like two oscillators through a single lowpass filter and amp/whatever the output dealy is you modulate with an envelope. Detune, make fifths and octaves. Play with the volume balance so you catch how the louder OSC sounds when it's an octave lower, then an octave higher. Make it two octaves. Turn resonance to zero and play with the filter, then add resonance bit by bit and play with it, and... good grief, I'm just repeating what Yoozer said. Blegh.
Anyhow, next, poke around for tutorials on programming synthesizers on YouTube, here, Musicplayer forums, Harmony Central, anywhere. You should find some which help clue you in on how to emullate things like clarinets, flutes, strings, brass, pianos, drum sounds, what makes a good pad, bass, lead sound, etc. The waveforms you use are critical into making you think "clarinet" instead of "oboe," "strings" or "kick drum." Also filter and ENV settings. You'll learn that with synthy sounds, there are often a few ways to get what you want. Learn them all. Programming is like painting with sound tools, and when you think you have a good grasp of things, then it's time to start programming your brains out. With experience, you'll start having a lot of fun, and your sounds will suggest music for them. Likewise, your music will suggest the sounds it wants.
Have fun, and hopefully this made sense and I haven't made a fuel of myself. Thank heaven I'm a non-smoker...
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and go into a little more detail of where I should start. THanks!
Well, if you are a beginner in virtual synths and synthetis in general, i do not recommend Massive to start with because it is quite complex some times and sort of a geeky synth to start with, if you want to have similar sounds (eg presets) to use i'll recommend reFX Nexus, and Lenar Digital Sylenth.
They pretty much cover the standard synth which you have the osc, having filther adsr, amp adsr, cutoff and you can easy make different sounds from presets in removing effetcts such as arp, delay, reverb etc.
Also what me personally helped to bash 2 flys with one hit, trying the reFX Vanguard. It is a simple synth which gives you a great basis to get the functionality of a synth quickly, and also you can create different presets quite fast.
I'll download that synth and check it out....once I get the $ (looked it up and realized its $65) For now I've set aside Massive and I've been messing with Reason's Subtractor
Well, if you are a beginner in virtual synths and synthetis in general, i do not recommend Massive to start with because it is quite complex some times and sort of a geeky synth to start with,
It's really not that complex; it's got one of the most elegant ways of handling modulation ever invented. Most importantly; you can use it in a stupid straightforward manner if you just skip all the modulation stuff.
I mean, the fact that there are hundreds of Youtube tutorials out there shows that it's not completely rocket science.
Quote:
if you want to have similar sounds (eg presets) to use i'll recommend reFX Nexus, and Lenar Digital Sylenth.
Nexus is barely a synth; it's expensive sample-playback stuff only. You can't really modify the sound; you get a bunch of samples.
Sylenth is neat but it's not deep - so when you grow out of the beginner level, it doesn't offer much more, and its sound is way beyond what Vanguard does. Vanguard's old, and you can hear it.
Ehm... well, I'm glad you got something useful out of that really goofy sounding stream of consciousness. I'd edit my post but you quoted the whole thing... jeepers, that was bad.
I'm in kind of a rush to get going with some stuff, so I would say that Massive struck me as a mess when I got a good look at it, but it's just that the interface seems like it was built by a coder who was drunk when he arranged it. Everything is there, it's just... arranged weirdly. I'm with Yoozer on using something deep with power you can grow into vs something simple that will quickly seem too basic. And it looks like you have some friends here now, so have fun with Massive, and if tutorials don't explain something, someone will be able to answer specific questions.
And I have to repeat my mantra: when you get going musically, do what you want to do, and have the courage to sound different.
thanks to both you guys for all this help! (and everyone else)
I have Reason as well. I've been messing wtih Subtractor this past few days. After I get the hang of that, I'm going to try to move to Thor and Massive.
Sylenth is neat but it's not deep - so when you grow out of the beginner level, it doesn't offer much more, and its sound is way beyond what Vanguard does. Vanguard's old, and you can hear it.
Do you consider zebra 2 a good synth for someone still learning synthesis? Semi modular
New Reply 
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
I'd feel obligated if he hadn't.
