King KORG Analog Synthesizer, 3 Oscillators, 2 Timbres, 61 Keys & New MINI MS-20

[recnsci]

Originally Posted by Gil missFlag

I wouldn't mind a VA engine if it's the same as the iMS-20 only polyphonic.

Well, initial info that started this buzz was "mono synth in Legacy case". For a poly version, port of iMS20 would be no brainer. However, if those are images of actuall product on first page of this thread, do you see any means of patch storage? And would you (or anyone else) buy poly VA without patch storage? If it is poly iMS20 in dedicated package, it will look quite a bit different.

Originally Posted by Gil missFlag

Still, an analog remake will constantly be compared to the original and considered a "lesser" option for those who can't afford the "real thing", no matter how good it sounds.

MiniMS would be considered lesser option one way or another, if nothing else than beacuse of mini keys. And "old" MS would still be better option and price will probabbly go up in s/h market. But again: when I started dabbling with synths 15 years ago MS family had reputation of being "thin" for most people. Holy Grails in tone department were Moog and Roland, and then OB, SCI and Arp and then some empty places before Yamahas and Korgs. Korg VCF had reputation here and there of being "wild" (for those who didnt loathed them in the first place) but were never considered fat, punchy or whatever. I'll repeat: Korg doesn't have Holy Tone to conform to, and for most buyers it's only "oh, that Flat Beat synth" anyway.

[synthguy]

Originally Posted by recnsci

However, if those are images of actuall product on first page of this thread, do you see any means of patch storage? And would you (or anyone else) buy poly VA without patch storage? If it is poly iMS20 in dedicated package, it will look quite a bit different.

This is what I was going to say. I'm not up on the iMS-20, but the Legacy Collection and MS-20 model in the OASYS and Kronos was polyphonic, and I'm sure that there would have been some serious grouching from users if it had been limited to one note. When samplers became affordable and powerful, or heck, way back in the days of the Ensoniq Mirage, people would sample their monosynths to play chords, and this continued even to this day.

So one, a VA limited to one voice would be dumped on by everyone, and why buy it if you can have an iMS-20, or afford a Kronos? If a VA, why NOT make it a polysynth? If monophonic, couldn't KORG have at LEAST gone to the trouble to beef up the Monotron voice card with a few more features and patch points? Making one voice card for a synth isn't that much trouble, especially if it has no sophisticated digital circuitry such as scannable knobs, processors and memories. Which is why a CODE costs so darn much, and possibly licensing for those filter designs.

And that brings me to two: who would buy a VA with no patch memory? I'd have to think that there would at least be two selector knobs, say 16 steps which would give you 256 patch locations (16x16). Of course, with no display you'd have to remember if that one bass sound was 2-11 or 2-12. And again, a MONO VA? I just can't see anyone doing that. It would make them an even bigger target of abuse than Roland for DARING to release the you-know-what. They would become the toilet of the music world.

And recnsci is right about the way those old KORG monosynths were regarded back then. While the MS family of synths/sequencer/expander were pretty darn powerful and nicely configurable, you could build it into quite the modular synth fairly cheaply, they were considered the bargain basement of the synth world. Everyone was chasing the juicy sounds of Moog, Oberheim, ARP, the Prophets when they came along, or the CS-80. The one voice/layer CS synths Yamaha made were seen as slightly better than the KORGs, and both were said to be thin, shrill instruments, even compared to the ARPs which were the original thin synths. Still, both companies sold a lot of them to musicians hungry for performance synths because they were much cheaper than a Minimoog, and a two oscillator MS-20 was just a little more than a one oscillator ARP Axxe.

[Don Solaris]

Originally Posted by itisnick

One mystery is, if real, would they do 1v/oct or the original Hz/V.

[PES]

^



I can never imagine they make a stand-alone VA synth out of the MS. In these days they'd have a hard time selling that with all the real analogue mono goodness going on.

[Kamurah]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before in the thread...

But did they put TUBES in this synth (King Korg)???? See the left side....looks like vents above the joystick for "Korg Tube Drive" technology.

Please not that again.


Hope I'm wrong.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Wuut, lol, nice one Don, you calmed us all down :D

I guess it's vintage technology but I still like to use this one at home:

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by synthguy

..
And that brings me to two: who would buy a VA with no patch memory? ..

Originally Posted by PES

..

I can never imagine they make a stand-alone VA synth out of the MS. In these days they'd have a hard time selling that with all the real analogue mono goodness going on.

Mayn, you guys ALSO make sense, this shit is so nerve-wracking.

[SonicBern]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before in the thread...

But did they put TUBES in this synth (King Korg)???? See the left side....looks like vents above the joystick for "Korg Tube Drive" technology.

Please not that again.


Hope I'm wrong.

I mentioned it

Originally Posted by SonicBern

...I just found on another page, with analog Korg stuff but also the R3 so they may mean VA not RA.. The grill maybe for valve force rather than RA cooling...

I also agree with those that suspect ''XMT'' is the latest version of KORG VA tech as that suits their recent and past product naming MO...

The tubes worked on other KORG products, so I see it as potentially their best VA yet if it does have them and that is what it looks like to me...

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

..
But did they put TUBES in this synth (King Korg)???? See the left side....looks like vents above the joystick for "Korg Tube Drive" technology.

..

Oh, yea, I spotted that one too, real glow in the dark for ya'

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by SonicBern

..
The tubes worked on other KORG products, so I see it as potentially their best VA yet if it does have them and that is what it looks like to me...

Is it for tube overdrive somewhere in the summed audio path, or what's it's function? (I haven't used the Tribes, but have seen it described as a gimmick.) If the amplifier was actually tube-driven it could be nice, perhaps? But I doubt that's what going on here.

[SonicBern]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke

Is it for tube overdrive somewhere in the summed audio path, or what's it's function? (I haven't used the Tribes, but have seen it described as a gimmick.) If the amplifier was actually tube-driven it could be nice, perhaps?

IIRC on stuff like the EMX they had it on the final stage and you could dial in saturation to get more grunge. I could hear the effect in demo's it was really non digital. I also suspect it is why I like the sound of the SV1 in some demo's..

I would love to have a VA with it to effect some patches for a more analog feel...

I am looking forward to this synth big time...

[Kamurah]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke

Is it for tube overdrive somewhere in the summed audio path, or what's it's function? (I haven't used the Tribes, but have seen it described as a gimmick.) If the amplifier was actually tube-driven it could be nice, perhaps? But I doubt that's what going on here.

In my humble opinion it is a gimmick. Built-in tube overdrive / saturation seems superfluous given that every DAW on the planet either has built-in saturation / exciter / overdrive plugs, or if not you can download free ones which do a fine job.

A tube stage inserted into the audio path just seems like one more thing to go wrong with this synth down the line.



Here is a question: If this is a VA vs a real analog (i.e. it is a digital signal), why not put ADAT outs? Now THERE is something I could use. Don't really need USB audio or anything, but the addition of multi-channel digital input and output (not just SPDIF) would be most welcome.

Just sayin....

[grasspike]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

In my humble opinion it is a gimmick. Built-in tube overdrive / saturation seems superfluous given that every DAW on the planet either has built-in saturation / exciter / overdrive plugs, or if not you can download free ones which do a fine job.

A tube stage inserted into the audio path just seems like one more thing to go wrong with this synth down the line.

a lot of us still play our keys live through a PA system, as such it makes sense if you are going to make a really nice VA to have tubes in there.

I would love to see a great preamp with 12AX7 tubes that are run at high voltage that output via balanced XLR connectors. There are several factories in China now that are making tubes and they all pretty much suck. However the beauty of tubes is that you can change them quite easily for other tubes. If that is the case it would be quite a good thing. Using vintage NOS 12AX7As from home organs I am guessing would be amazing and would BLOW away any type of plugin

[synthguy]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

In my humble opinion it is a gimmick. Built-in tube overdrive / saturation seems superfluous given that every DAW on the planet either has built-in saturation / exciter / overdrive plugs, or if not you can download free ones which do a fine job.

Yeah... high end tube compressors and EQs just aren't selling anymore - hell, NO hardware units are for sale anywhere because the cheapware and free stuff is just so darn good these days. And softsynths have put all the synth makers out of bidness. Aw yeah.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

In my humble opinion it is a gimmick. Built-in tube overdrive / saturation seems superfluous given that every DAW on the planet either has built-in saturation / exciter / overdrive plugs, or if not you can download free ones which do a fine job.

......

Well, I tend to print my outboard efx, especially overdrives and distortion which no digital effect can pull off satisfactorily imo.

I also love my tube guitar amps. But as grasspike is saying, it's my experience that tubes should be run at high voltage, and the amp itself should be tube driven, otherwise you don't get that big glassy hi-end tube feel, perhaps you'll just get a bit of wool and perhaps harshness as you push the tube.

As such, I agree that unless it is implemented properly, a tube could just be another thing to worry about.

[jachin boaz]

Originally Posted by KrisM

People will bitch that it "doesn't sound like the original."Guaranteed.

the thing is it wont = because all new designed and gear are manufactured to much tighter and higher specs and often with cheaper parts or components ( alot of new electronic analogue components are much lower quality than they were using in the 70 s etc - you need to spend more than korg will to get the same level of quality now )

The other problem is this obession with specs and stability in modern engineering you didnt have in the 70's.

Korg will make this 100% stable and 100% perfect in spec and again this wont please peoples ears , just people in suits and designers obsessing over specs.

People have to accept modern gear or an awefull lot is cheap build component product and designed around an obession wirth perfect specs and tuning and stability ( all 3 things are non musicial concepts - the ears like imperfection )

This is why old sounds better than new.

It may be a new analogue synth but it would costa fortune to build them now to the same quality of component as back then and also they would need to deliberately build them with what now in design is percieved as ' a flaw ' in .

Did no one notice new gear is to perfect ? or alot ?

I am sure it will sound very good but i dont believe it will sound vintage in the same way a photo taken with a Polaroid camera from 1970's cannot Really be replicated with an i[ad and instagram , its always pretend in some sense .

[SonicBern]

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

In my humble opinion it is a gimmick. Built-in tube overdrive / saturation seems superfluous given that every DAW on the planet either has built-in saturation / exciter / overdrive plugs, or if not you can download free ones which do a fine job.

A tube stage inserted into the audio path just seems like one more thing to go wrong with this synth down the line.
.

its actually no gimmik in the electribes and real tubes in the output circuit.. wether you can achieve that with a propper FET emulation is another question but a plug in? besides how would that plug in help you on stage?

trick with electribes is to put propper tubes inside.. than the feature starts to shine.. just.. püropper tubes are easily 100-200.- extra for your electribe.. but it works.. less noise, better definition and punch and a more golden highs..

I guess the developers had proper tubes..while in production the cheapest they could get was used..

[itisnick]

I have a real 1970s one so I'm conflicted. I guess if they made a real analog one and if it was either a great price or had some unknown exciting features I'd want to get (another) one.

Anyway I just thought I'd point out that the monotron and monotribe also test out the market for synths with no MIDI, presets nor patch storage being salable.

Though that could apply to a real analog too - no patch storage

Though less neat, pretty much all the details have been tried out elsewhere. Polyphonic VA engine inside, Legacy controller technology that senses patch cables but does not pass audio. USB connector in back rather than MIDI

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by jachin boaz

..

Did no one notice new gear is to perfect ? or alot ? ...

It depends mostly on the circuit design, unless there are obsolete chips involved, e.g. the CEM chips, or others.

You can still get 'classic styled' capacitors, resistors etc, components which perform relatively poorly like old components. Some even make replicas of old ones, e.g. replicas of 'mustard caps' and such.

[Kamurah]

Originally Posted by synthguy

Yeah... high end tube compressors and EQs just aren't selling anymore - hell, NO hardware units are for sale anywhere because the cheapware and free stuff is just so darn good these days. And softsynths have put all the synth makers out of bidness. Aw yeah.

You guys are kind of missing my point and kind of making it at the same time.

OF COURSE there is a demand, market, and need for high end tube designs in audio. But also consider it really does no good to lump all 'related' audio products together on a level playing field just because it may or may not have a tube in it.

An ART Tube MP preamp is by no means anywhere in the same universe as a D.W. Fearn, Millennia, or Avalon....and the same goes for discreet and IC topology as well.

A PROPERLY designed and implemented tube amplification stage in this keyboard would likely cost as much to put in as the rest of the components combined, and would also generate undesired heat.

IMO..the starved plate low voltage crunch fuzz whatever they are strapping onto the output stage is nothing more than an effect.

All I'm saying is....WRT keyboards and cheap tube output stages...I am not convinced the 'juice is worth the squeeze' so to speak...

I'm not a gigging musician...but even if I was...surely there have got to be better / easier ways to get a bit of crunch on the signal than that. As far as studio use....something that goes beyond marketing hype and is truly useful in a digital instrument like ADAT or even MADI I/O gets ignored by most companies. I must be in the minority / off base 'cause I just don't get it.

But hey...if the public likes it they will speak with their dollars.

[cresshead]

if it's a real korg poly synth then it's a VA with valve force tech...all will depend on it's sound and features.

[Alex Aliferis]

It would interesting if the tube saturation stage could be inserted into different locations in the signal path, such as pre-filter.

[synthguy]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

An ART Tube MP preamp is by no means anywhere in the same universe as a D.W. Fearn, Millennia, or Avalon....and the same goes for discreet and IC topology as well.

Maybe you're one of the few who only use expensive outboard gear. But there are a ton of people who use those ART tube preamps to warm up not just VAs, but everything, and have for a couple of decades. As someone mentioned above, the KORG SV epiano uses a tube stage for warmth and drive both, and it sure beats anything but an overdriven Fender Rhodes amp. People like it, people want it, which is why it's there. Can it be better? Sure, there are always better tubes - Russian tubes rock, and pushing the voltage is a good idea too, if you can squeeze any out of the power supply. But KORG keeps using them because people want them to. Just a fact of life and all.

[SonicBern]

Originally Posted by Alex Aliferis

It would interesting if the tube saturation stage could be inserted into different locations in the signal path, such as pre-filter.

D2A A2D D2A

[Kamurah]

Originally Posted by synthguy

... But KORG keeps using them because people want them to. Just a fact of life and all.

With much respect....I have to disagree with you here. There was not a huge public outcry for 'tubes' that caused Korg to put them in....quite the opposite...it was Mar-Ket-Ing.

They jumped all over the 'it's got a tube so it must be Vintage=warmer=fatter=better' perception that ran rampant on the Internet and people fell for it.

They basically TOLD you you needed them by putting them in, and so you think you do. Now you have come to accept and even expect it.

It's not just Korg that does this, and it's not just with tube stuff. Heck, head over to the Apogee website and listen to the demo files for the Duet2.

Now...for the record, Apogee makes some great sounding stuff and they have for years and years...but the demos they posted are hilarious if you look at it from a critical marketing viewpoint. So here is the chain (with approximate price points) for one of the piano demos: Acoustically balanced room (I assume part of Bob Clearmountain's studio so it will likely be outstanding) housing a Bosendorfer 9 foot grand (100,000 USD+) being played by top player -> AKG C24 (10,000 USD+ depending on condition) -> Duet2 (600 USD) ->computer, being engineered by Bob Clearmountain.

That's a 111,000+ dollar chain coupled with Bob Clearmountain's experience folks.

OF COURSE it sounds un-farking-believable! Why wouldn't it?

In reality, the audio interface (be it Apogee or whoever) in THAT scenario makes the LEAST amount of impact on the overall sound.

And although it is unrealistic to think you are going to get comparable results in your living room...that is exactly the crowd the Duet2 is MARKETED to.

Just for the record and since you sort of implied something contrary ...my own outboard chain for synths is quite modest: Synth -> Radial JDI -> Focusrite ISA One Digital (purchased for 350 USD on closeout) -> Digital out / in to a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24. Less than 1k, and great bang for the buck IMO.

I also do own and have tried in the past to use an ART Tube MP....but it does not impart any 'warmth'...unless by warmth you mean noise.

[grasspike]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

An ART Tube MP preamp is by no means anywhere in the same universe as a D.W. Fearn, Millennia, or Avalon....and the same goes for discreet and IC topology as well.

A PROPERLY designed and implemented tube amplification stage in this keyboard would likely cost as much to put in as the rest of the components combined,

Originally Posted by Kamurah

I also do own and have tried in the past to use an ART Tube MP....but it does not impart any 'warmth'...unless by warmth you mean noise.

If your only experience with tube preamps is with $40 ART MPs then you really have no idea what we are talking about. ART also makes a stereo dual channel preamp called the Pro MPAII. It sells for $269. Once you replace the cheap crappy Chinese tubes with even some decent Eastern European ones (I like the JJ ECC83 from the Czech Republic) it really adds a lot to your synth mix. The Pro MPAII allows you to run the tubes at high voltage which really give a warmth to even harsh digital sounds. (I like to run DX synths through it.)

I have also built several tube amps and even a few "All American 5 and 6" radios, and can tell you the cost for Korg or any synth company to add a decent high voltage tube into the Amp circuit would be about $10 including the cost of the tubes (assuming they use generic Chinese tubes)
and on a VA would give it a very rich warm sound

[kslight]

I find the above argument slightly hilarious... What we have on our table is some kind of new Korg VA, at best using their next gen modeling technology, most likely in fact just using the same repackaged technology they've been milking for over a decade, slightly upgraded. And we are discussing the cheeseball tube circuitry implemented like Korg is wont to do this days, and talking it and other cheesy cheap tube products up like they are the holy grail and the secret to great tone. Seriously, it all means nothing unless this synth sounds good to begin with, which no one will really know for sure for another month or so. No amount of t00bz are going to polish a turd. The fact that Korg finds it necessary to implement cheeseball tube circuitry tells me this is not a great sounding classy synth, it is, in fact, a turd.

[Kamurah]

Originally Posted by grasspike

I have also built several tube amps and even a few "All American 5 and 6" radios, and can tell you the cost for Korg or any synth company to add a decent high voltage tube into the Amp circuit would be about $10 including the cost of the tubes (assuming they use generic Chinese tubes)
and on a VA would give it a very rich warm sound

And yet they resort to this:



Here is a quote from the SoS review of said "Valve Force" unit:

"One small issue, though: the valves have pride of place behind an oval glass window on the front panel, allowing you to bask in their warm glow — strangely, though, it's not the warm glow of the valves themselves, but of two yellow LEDs soldered to the circuit board! This is reminiscent of the moulded fake tweeters and bolts on '80s-vintage Amstrad 'hi-fi' equipment!"


And this comes from the Wikipedia page for the term "gimmick":

"In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use."


Again...if you guys like it...by all means buy it.

[recnsci]

Originally Posted by Kamurah

And yet they resort to this

Those tubes operate at low voltage thus there is no thermionic emission thus no glow. And average customer wants that "magical tube glow" and they have to make darn glow. But that is no gimmick. At low voltages pentodes act similar as good or very very good JFET (depending on tube), triodes a bit different. They do distort, just not in the same manner as in high voltage design. You personaly might not like it but it's real and in great majority of situations better then DSP saturation.