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schmuck
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#1
20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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kraftwerk-win-landmark-sampling-case

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20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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A bit like where Mike Oldfield sued Paul Hardcastle for using the Tubular Bells melody in his hit 19.
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#3
20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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For more than a decade the case bounced between lower and higher courts, until on 13 December the supreme court issued its decision.
There's something frightening about spending over a decade of court time to decide a case about 2 seconds of music.
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20th December 2012
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true to be honest I am not sure what to think about all this...but certainly not worth such a long battle.

Did not know about the 19 vs. Tubular bells case either....
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20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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What about the bizarre law that using an unlicensed sample is lawful if it's something the artist could not have made himself?

I guess the purpose is to not prevent art from being created which could not have been made any other way, but what sound would be legal to sample and publish without license under such a law? A space shuttle launch? One of the now-deceased James Brown's yells?
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#6
20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn303 View Post
A bit like where Mike Oldfield sued Paul Hardcastle for using the Tubular Bells melody in his hit 19.



Interesting, I never knew, or at least if I did I had since forgotten, that such a case happened. Shame, I really like them both. I still listen to Hardcastle's 19 from time to time as do I Oldfield's stuff.

This 80s time frame brings to mind spinning, Larry Fast's Synergy, Kraftwerk's Electric Cafe, Eloy's Metromania, and playing with the Commodore 64...some things being less timeless than others.

I'm sure glad Kraftwerk won the case.

Man if anyone hasn't seen it yet, you gotta check out that Kraftwerk and The Electronic Revolution disc. Such a great and informative tribute to those that started the euro electronic scene.
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20th December 2012
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It's not the first time Kraftwerk have launched suits, another notable one was Afrika Bambaataa with Planet Rock (TEE Riff) and part of Numbers.

But they haven't done anything against fellow German's Westbam who have sampled just about everything done by Kraftwerk.

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20th December 2012
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Never understood the need to sample existing material when it's so easy to make your own...
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20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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In the past composers were always borrowing melodies from each other, quoting other peoples tunes, altering them, just think of all the classical music derived from folk songs, did anyone get sued for that? !!and it happens in the visual arts all the time, I think this one thing is sad, let it all be free, and lets all make use of whatever we find and create something new with it!! Who really gives a **** anyway. If people sampled any music I made I would glad, at least they were making use of it
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20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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Originally Posted by Alex Aliferis View Post
What about the bizarre law that using an unlicensed sample is lawful if it's something the artist could not have made himself?
I believe they argued about freedom of expression, and so it got to such weirdeness.
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21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Originally Posted by ksandvik View Post
Never understood the need to sample existing material when it's so easy to make your own...
It's easy to create some things. Others are not, particularly without a large budget. I wouldn't mind having a bit of funky drumming in my music for example, but I don't have the studio to record drums in, I don't know any good drummers. So I'd have to hire a studio full of vintage equipment (to get that old funk sound), fly a drummer from overseas (as there probably aren't great drummers in Finland) to play it and stuff. It's gonna cost thousands. And I make the kind of music where even the successful stuff only sells a few hundred copies. So I'd actually lose lots of money doing it. Or I could just sample a bit of drums from an old funk record. It's a lot cheaper, even if you give ALL of your profits from the release to the copyright holders.
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#12
21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Never understood the need to sample existing material when it's so easy to make your own...
Because it's about putting it in a different context and transforming it - you want to use a certain element of the original (but not the whole) and put a different spin on it.

That mashability - for me, at least - has always been something I loved about electronic music.
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#13
21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Because it's about putting it in a different context and transforming it - you want to use a certain element of the original (but not the whole) and put a different spin on it.

That mashability - for me, at least - has always been something I loved about electronic music.
I totally agree. As an old school nuts and bolts musician I never really "got it" until I started digging deepER into contemporary electronic stuff to where I developed a true appreciation for the music. I mean in the sense that I WANT to listen to it somewhat every day. Mashing is an absolute art form in some peoples hands and it takes a great deal of skill and time to "get er done". The whole school of stems cultivation is mind blowing. As much so as just about any style type or variety of electronic music. I honestly think if most artists knew the dedication and skill involved in making some of these mixes they would feel a huge sense of honor with respect to what many have simply labeled as being intellectual property law infringement.

if interested, watch that RIP: A remix manifesto dvd on netflix or whatever.
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21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Its not about 2 seconds of music, it seems it is more about work product and the right to exploit your own work product. In music the ideal of work product runs headlong into the idea of sharing and building ideas. No musician that we know of ever started from zero. All musicians learn a vocabulary established by those that came before. At what point is something part of the vocabulary and at what point is it merely work product. This is a complicated matter and I can fully understand why litigation took so long.
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21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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I play bass and guitar and I have been replaying samples for a long time. That being said, anyone who thinks that what someone like DJ Premeir or J-Dilla (RIP) does can be recreated by just playing the instruments over is really naive and just doesn't get sampling.

I don't know about anyone else, but the thought of a bunch of German "experts" deciding on the artistic validity of Hip-Hop really bothers me.

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#16
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
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It's about respect. To respect the creator and his work.

If you sample someone else's work, don't ask for permission to release your track with the sample, don't give any credit on the booklet, don't pay any royalties and earn money with your release, then the respect is gone.
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#17
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
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My bad that's embarrassing, I didn't read the article carefully. Of course Kraftwerk won, they didn't clear the sample first.
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28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messiaen View Post
In the past composers were always borrowing melodies from each other, quoting other peoples tunes, altering them, just think of all the classical music derived from folk songs, did anyone get sued for that? !!and it happens in the visual arts all the time, I think this one thing is sad, let it all be free, and lets all make use of whatever we find and create something new with it!! Who really gives a **** anyway. If people sampled any music I made I would glad, at least they were making use of it
In this case Moses Pelham and his co "writer" took 2 instantly recognizable seconds of Kraftwerk and looped it to make the basis of "his" clearly commercial track. Decency would have been to give a credit and ask as basically it wasn't about progressing music, but about money.

There is a difference between making money off the back of other artists and being inspired and "quoting" them in your work.
When I first started out I sampled other artists for a few things. Then I honestly felt that if I want respect, I need to offer it so stopped (and would ask if I felt the urge to do it again)

Lot's of samples aren't even about the sound. It's simply about using something recognizable to make a commercial money making venture out of.
It's not art. It's often a way to make an uninspired artist get airplay and get noticed.

Coldplay for example used a Kraftwerk melody and they were credited on the release as co writers. I am sure this was a nice little earner for Kraftwerk and no skin off Coldplay's nose. Why should one side be the winner, that side being the one who didn't do the creating?

In this case, I doubt it was about money. Number 27 in the German charts is hardly going to make huge sums for Kraftwerk, but it's about respect.
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28th December 2012
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It's not about music, it's 100% about greed and money. Sad!
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28th December 2012
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Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
It's not about music, it's 100% about greed and money. Sad!
well, yes, but I cannot help but think Kraftwerk did the right thing in this case. It probably has less to do with greed and money but with principles, and I have to applaud them for pushing it through (they are doing a service to other musicians as well IMO).
#21
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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i dont understand why they sampled kraftwerk when they could have just taken the time to reproduce that beat if they wanted to. but i too dont understand why people feel the need to copy others when its so easy to come up with original material. even though the sample isnt a very important part of that piece, they should be forced to pay for its use because they had no right to use kraftwerks copyrighted material without permission.
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29th December 2012
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Not everyone who produces music has the engineering and sound sculpting skills to duplicate the recording they're sampling from. In this day and age it's amazing no one at the record company had the sense to stop them, although perhaps they are not as financially liable as the artist in this regard.
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29th December 2012
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If I found anyone sampled something from my songs making a hit I would take that as an honor .... and when I'm rich and famous and replaced music passion with greed I will sue you
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29th December 2012
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If I found anyone sampled something from my songs making a hit I would take that as an honor .... and when I'm rich and famous and replaced music passion with greed I will sue you
oh please
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29th December 2012
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oh please
"Please" is a stolen phrase from James Brown's song "Please". But James brown has been sampled like no one else.
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29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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What I find odd with this argument is how somehow the decision is left to the person sampling.
If you don't mind people using chunks of your music to make money or get acclaim, then I am totally fine with that. Your choice.
but I don't see why that should be seen as a reason for others to also offer their work for free.

And the steal from the rich attitude doesn't hold water either. Just because Kraftwerk have some money doesn't mean anyone has the right to use what they created in anyway they want without crediting them.
Is it different when a rich producer samples from a poor artist? If so, why?
In Literature if I use a section of a (rich or poor!) writers essay, I credit it as a quote .
If I use it as mine, I have crossed a line.
I don't see why this should be different for composers.

And I am in no way against sampling. I think it helps music evolve for better or for worse, but I still give the original creator the right to get credit for their part in new creations.
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29th December 2012
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Too sad when such extraordinary talented and unique musicians lose their focus and ends up as greedy and bitter old men, won tour-de-court, lost their soul.
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29th December 2012
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I think Mr. Morley said it perfectly above. I find it rather telling that someone who has "artistic merit" and an actual track record in our beloved electronic music, has such a view. Compared to a nobody who calls other people who have reached something in their lives (artistically) "bitter" and "greedy" because they do not want their work plundered.

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29th December 2012
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Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
I think Mr. Morley said it perfectly above. I find it rather telling that someone who has "artistic merit" and an actual track record in our beloved electronic music, has such a view. Compared to a nobody who calls other people who have reached something in their lives (artistically) "bitter" and "greedy" because they do not want their work plundered.
You don't convince me and we don't come any further - you keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. Peace man
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30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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could have been not really the band members but an intermediary.
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