2nd November 2012
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#1 | | Gear interested
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 24
Thread Starter | Gainstaging (analog to digital path)
Hello everyone, I've posted this on the Cubase forum, but as it's a more general question of interest I figured I'd try here too.
I'll phrase my question in terms of what I'm seeking to do (hopefully this will narrow the response down a bit): I'll be recording several songs using a combination of live instruments (synths, drum machines, guitars), vst instruments, and a couple found samples. I'd like to know how to properly set levels at each stage in order to achieve optimal results (clarity, no clipping, flexibility for master house, etc.). I'm aware people vary in their opinions about gain-staging, but all I'm seeking is a workable/safe solution so I can move forward with the project. (I've never paid any heed to gain staging practices before but I want to give it a shot this time).
My signal chain is:
INSTRUMENT (analog) --> FMR PRE --> FMR compressor --> ALESIS multimix (parallel aux send --> lexicon reverb) --> RME Fireface UC (interface/converter) --> CUBASE.
Can anyone detail the amount of gain/input/output level I should apply at each stage (either that or a general working theory that I can take moving forward)?
1. Instrument
2. Pre
3. Compressor
4. Mixing board/Effects loop
5. Interface/converter
6. Cubase
With regards to Cubase: I've been reading that I'm to have my peaks be at around -12 to -6 in the meter (varies according to opinion) when the signal hits Cubase. Is that about right?
I'm confused about that part. Do I adjust input gain for each channel accordingly, so that the peaks hit -12/-6, or do I control this by means of my interfaces mixing software (totalmix), or otherwise? What for the fader position?
At the moment, I'm seeking a way to move forward, more of a what should I try rather than a why behind each process.
Thanks!
Dan
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2nd November 2012
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#2 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Aug 2008 Location: Best Coast
Posts: 2,662
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just don't clip anything and try to have the master ardound -3db
i like to go by the 75% rule personally...25% from clipping all around
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2nd November 2012
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: May 2008 Location: New York  |
Leave all of you faders, real and virtual at unity and make your adjustments on the preamp gain and/or makeup gain on compressor. -6 to -12 will be fine and leave you plenty of headroom for accidental overs.
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Ken Wilkinson
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2nd November 2012
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#4 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,351
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lose the alesis multimix in your chain. you will record cleaner healthier sound from your hardware. add reverb later, either ITB or via send to Lexicon. yrs keep the RMS arround -12dB. peaks can go up to -6. drive the RNP to get healthy signal levels without rising the gain on UC balanced line input.
so, just go instrument -> RNP w RNC on insert -> UC
__________________  music for film, tvseries & theatre
 live psyhedelic ambient
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2nd November 2012
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#5 | | Gear interested
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 24
Thread Starter |
thank you both, that's what I needed to hear.
just to get this straight: don't touch faders (leave them at unity) while tracking, correct?
does it mess anything up if I move the channel faders (in cubase) after* I've recorded in order that I can adjust their volume in the mix? (this is what I've always done, but maybe it's a bad habit and I should stick with the recorded levels for the most part while tracking the other tracks?). Maybe if I up the faders too high this contributes to digital distortion?
the alesis: I was wondering about it, thanks for clearing that up. The routing in totalmix (UC's mixing software) is a bit of a headache for me - I haven't figured out how to do an aux loop yet without getting double signals, etc.
Thanks again,
Dan
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2nd November 2012
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#6 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,351
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it can be done. im using UFX like that every day. if your input is for example on 1, and you use output 3 as a send to Lexicon reverb... just select the submix with 3+4 output, and then raise the fader on input 1, pan full left. that will send your input to the lexicon. connect lexicon back to inputs 3 and 4, for example. make a track in DAW, choose to record from input 1 - this way you record the synth dry, but still hear the reverb too in main outputs. however, if you also want to record the reverb simultaneously and separately, open another track and designate its input 3+4.
cheers
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2nd November 2012
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,323
| Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.danielnewell  thank you both, that's what I needed to hear.
just to get this straight: don't touch faders (leave them at unity) while tracking, correct?
| not exactly, what you want to leave at unity is the input gain. different boards have different gains for unity. so check the manual. mostly leaving the gain at 0Db on the mixer is unity. as cluster says, if you can leave the alesis mixer out of the chain, this would be better.
what i would say to you is this:
most 16bit outboard FX should be as hot as you can get without overload. (unless you like the sound of that overload  ) this is difficult in practice on some outboard because the meters are crap. so, say if you have an LED meter that goes green, more green, yellow, red: you would want the signal to hit the last green light, maybe just flickering the yellow.
once you hit the converters you need to make sure you're nowhere near overload. with 24bit recording you DO NOT NEED TO COME IN HOT. low signals are best here. obviously you need some signal, but say peaking at 25% on the cubase channel meter is perfect.
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2nd November 2012
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#8 | | Gear interested
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 24
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord so, just go instrument -> RNP w RNC on insert -> UC | Hmm. How do I do this exactly?
I read that I connect the RNP and RNC with TRS's. It says that send and return signals can be sent through them? Am I getting this correct? I had no idea... (I don't have any TRSs so I'd need to buy some).
so it would be:
instrument --> RNP in. Pre insert (loop) --> (TRS) RNC. RNP out --> Fireface
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2nd November 2012
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#9 | | Gear interested
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 24
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord it can be done. im using UFX like that every day. if your input is for example on 1, and you use output 3 as a send to Lexicon reverb... just select the submix with 3+4 output, and then raise the fader on input 1, pan full left. that will send your input to the lexicon. connect lexicon back to inputs 3 and 4, for example. make a track in DAW, choose to record from input 1 - this way you record the synth dry, but still hear the reverb too in main outputs. however, if you also want to record the reverb simultaneously and separately, open another track and designate its input 3+4.
cheers | Awesome!
I followed this advice and set up my reverb as a patch into my Totalmix. Seems to be working fine! I've always tracked with reverb already in the chain... i.e. quite sloppily. I suppose I should get into the habit of recording a wet track and a dry one at the same time. Adding a reverb later would mean sending the dry track back out through the loop and re-recording it in a new channel, no?
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2nd November 2012
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#10 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,323
| Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.danielnewell Adding a reverb later would mean sending the dry track back out through the loop and re-recording it in a new channel, no? | yes but with good converters, a few bounces makes no audible difference. i usually record dry and bounce the audio out later. you have more options that way
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