"In your face" and loudness.

[gr8ape]

Well it comes down to basic mixing : however you gotta overmix

1. Every sound needs to be EQed - cut anything that is unheard in the mix!!!! Highpass EVERYTHING but kick and bass. Everything.
2. Sidechain sidechan sidechain. Everything needs to be sidechained. Bass AND Synths
3. Limiting - limit your drum, bass and synth groups separately. Sidechain them afterwards!

Maybe others will have more specific tips...

[Praxisaxis]

You can get the sort of loudness you're talking about but it comes with sacrificing some depth in the mix. Gr8pe has pretty much described what needs to be done (even then it's usually hit and miss).

It boils down to this - amplitude is physical, loudness is perceptual. So everything in your mix will be contributing to amplitude, but not everything need necessarily be making the mix sound loud. In order to "compete" with the loudest of loud tracks, you would need to work on this ratio.

But ask yourself this question - do you really want to? It comes at a cost. Even when everything in a mix is easily discernible, humans can only pay attention to X number of simultaneous audio events. Eliminating as many as possible means you'll have their "undivided attention" and you can save on ampage. But your music won't be as deep.

Now think about it.... is 1 or 2 extra DBs on average going to mean you're more likely to become more popular? Is the entire success of your music career hinging on whether you can squeeze just a touch more decibels out of your track?? Wouldn't making music which is a bit deeper also be a good way to gain a following? It's your choice. Yes a lot of popular tracks on soundcloud are ridiculously loud, but there are plenty which have more sensible levels and still garner plenty of attention. Download a few and measure them, if in doubt.

Certainly I think it's good to mix loud as an exercise in mixing. These days with my tracks I see if I can get them to the level of some of the soundcloud people, just to see what it does to the track and whether my mixing is "competitive," but then I normally drop it back. I prefer my tunes to bounce along on some dynamic content. Just my personal choice.

Also remember this - your competitors can't get much higher - in dance music, averaging -4 or -3 essentially leaves nowhere to go. In short, there's no future in it. Ipods and other devices will eventually instigate auto-leveling features, and once again it'll be about the mixing... might as well get a head start.

[Necron 99]

I prefer dynamic range over "in your face". A rare thing nowadays... It's depth that gets my attention.

[mecdnb]

You need to learn how to use distortion.

[nebelfrau]

Originally Posted by mecdnb

You need to learn how to use distortion.

Explain.

[Lallo]

Originally Posted by gr8ape

Well it comes down to basic mixing : however you gotta overmix

1. Every sound needs to be EQed - cut anything that is unheard in the mix!!!! Highpass EVERYTHING but kick and bass. Everything.
2. Sidechain sidechan sidechain. Everything needs to be sidechained. Bass AND Synths
3. Limiting - limit your drum, bass and synth groups separately. Sidechain them afterwards!

Maybe others will have more specific tips...

1. Already done
2. Already done
3. Why should I limit separate channels? And shouldn't the limiter be the last thing in the chain then ? ( u said sidechain afterwards)

[Lallo]

Originally Posted by Praxisaxis

You can get the sort of loudness you're talking about but it comes with sacrificing some depth in the mix. Gr8pe has pretty much described what needs to be done (even then it's usually hit and miss).

It boils down to this - amplitude is physical, loudness is perceptual. So everything in your mix will be contributing to amplitude, but not everything need necessarily be making the mix sound loud. In order to "compete" with the loudest of loud tracks, you would need to work on this ratio.

But ask yourself this question - do you really want to? It comes at a cost. Even when everything in a mix is easily discernible, humans can only pay attention to X number of simultaneous audio events. Eliminating as many as possible means you'll have their "undivided attention" and you can save on ampage. But your music won't be as deep.

Now think about it.... is 1 or 2 extra DBs on average going to mean you're more likely to become more popular? Is the entire success of your music career hinging on whether you can squeeze just a touch more decibels out of your track?? Wouldn't making music which is a bit deeper also be a good way to gain a following? It's your choice. Yes a lot of popular tracks on soundcloud are ridiculously loud, but there are plenty which have more sensible levels and still garner plenty of attention. Download a few and measure them, if in doubt.

Certainly I think it's good to mix loud as an exercise in mixing. These days with my tracks I see if I can get them to the level of some of the soundcloud people, just to see what it does to the track and whether my mixing is "competitive," but then I normally drop it back. I prefer my tunes to bounce along on some dynamic content. Just my personal choice.

Also remember this - your competitors can't get much higher - in dance music, averaging -4 or -3 essentially leaves nowhere to go. In short, there's no future in it. Ipods and other devices will eventually instigate auto-leveling features, and once again it'll be about the mixing... might as well get a head start.

I don't really need ridiculous loudness. Swedish House Mafia has lower loudness than many tracks I've heard and they still make a great mix with panning and separated sounds and the kick which comes through.

But I still need the tips and explanation how to get there because I think that if I know that I will be able to get the loudness I want while it still sounds lke I have dynamics. Right now I can reach commercial tracks and it sounds pretty ok but SHM does this (- a few dB) and still keeping nice dynamics

[Praxisaxis]

Originally Posted by Lallo

I don't really need ridiculous loudness. Swedish House Mafia has lower loudness than many tracks I've heard and they still make a great mix with panning and separated sounds and the kick which comes through.

But I still need the tips and explanation how to get there because I think that if I know that I will be able to get the loudness I want while it still sounds lke I have dynamics. Right now I can reach commercial tracks and it sounds pretty ok but SHM does this (- a few dB) and still keeping nice dynamics

OK sure. My no.1 tip is to stop being obsessed with loudness. Start worrying about your mix, the loudness will follow. You might say "but I already know how to mix well." I'm going to suggest you do not... because once you do, you'll know how to mix loud, if that's what you're after.

But if you want specifics... here are some tips, in addition to what else has been said here.

1) You should read my earlier post more carefully, you'll pick an important tip out of it - amplitude =/= loudness. Import a "loud" mix into your session - one you admire. Use a meter on it, and on yours, then subtract the difference from the imported track on its fader. You can now compare the sound of the mixes. You'll soon learn which elements in that mix are making it sound loud. It may have little to do with physical amplitude.
1.b.) in relation to the above, it's useful to know how to meter properly - get a good meter and read up on how to use it.
2) When working on a loud section of your tune, set up a set of mastering plugins on the master bus to simulate how your tune will be affected by the extreme squashing you're soon going to subject it to. You may need to cut more out of your mix to make it work - side chain even more heavily, or automate out elements as required. Make sure you flip back to regular mixing so that you know you aren't destroying your mix. Mixing into a limiter is NOT a practice traditionally recommended, but more people seem to do it these days to get their tunes belting.
3) Make sure you're choosing your sounds so that they meet your end goals. If you want a section to sound loud, you need to pick aggressive sounds. Think about it this way - a recording of someone whispering always sounds quiet even when you turn the volume up, whereas a recording of someone screaming sounds loud when it's played back with comparatively low volume. In particular we're sensitive to specific areas of the frequency scale - look this up - but don't go too much on theory, it's more important to use your ears.
4) Removing all dynamics actually works against loudness. You will notice on your limiter that after you push it past a threshold, there's less returns in terms of loudness. So regardless of how hard you push the limiter, the "loudness" of you tune is embedded in the mix. It will only ever sound so loud, irrespective of amplitude. Part of this is due to dynamic content. Part of our perception of loudness is dependent on the rapidity of a sound and its relation to ambient sound level. In other words, highly-dynamic audio content may make something sound louder. If you kill all your dynamics through compression, it may end up sounding softer than a tune which is in fact averaging a lower average amplitude.

[StringBean]

It's all about using eq like a jedi to give everything its pocket.

[polybonk]

Originally Posted by Lallo

I've had some problems with my latest track and it's mostly about perceived loudness and mixing sounds "in your face". I know more than basic mixing and it feels like I'm stuck somewhere where no one can tell me which way to go because it is some goddamn industry secret (loudness) and... yeah.. just need some answers on this one...

Professional top tier mastering.

[Praxisaxis]

Originally Posted by polybonk

Professional top tier mastering.

Whereas pro mastering (from someone reputable) will almost always give a better result than home mastering, loudness does NOT come predominantly from mastering. If your mix doesn't sound loud, your master won't be much better.

[fuse]

Originally Posted by polybonk

Professional top tier mastering.

Garbage in is garbage out.
(Please don't put that burden on the ME)

[gomfist]

your song is a big party. and every member wants to say something to you. repetively. the thing one has big big hair when jumps forward he wushes other people with his hair holding him back and holding them back aswell. then there are small smart guys with high pitched screamed voices..

the thing is: give every guy of your song party enough room. send one or two to the hair cutter ^^

give some other a louder microphone etc.

tools: Equalizer / Filter / Spectrum Analyzer / Compressor

But I am not sure if you already knew this?

last but not least try to crunch some transients with slight slight slight distortion

[Rockinrob]

Agree with the distortion or saturation input. Work a saturation or distortion plug in on those tracks and it should do what you want without adding the volume. IMHO I hate the whole volume war thing. No dynamics in the music. Good luck!!

[mecdnb]

Originally Posted by nebelfrau

Explain.

All the pro EDM mixdowns not matter what genre are all pretty much utilizing distortion in some way. The increase in harmonics leads to a thickness in the sound & things like tube & tape distortion can give a push in the midrange (which can give the 'in your face ' results you are looking for).

I would suggest reading up on it around the dance forums like dogsonacid, idmforums, dubstepforum because there is far to much to explain about it.

I will say that once you master distortion you will not need to do much compressing.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Lallo

I've had some problems with my latest track and it's mostly about perceived loudness and mixing sounds "in your face".

Both of these things are really important for me. I need to compete with some sick volume in the house music industry and therefore a lot of my problem has been loudness.

you act just as <deleted by moderator> as the people that forced you in this position.. and that not because of an actual demand.. house records was among the loudest anyway way before maximizer plug ins even exsisted...

face it.. it only got louder than that because of kids that havent learned to mix before they release.. its no advantage in a club when your track dont has dynamics... and a dj will buy your track because its good and grooves not because its loud..

Loudness as a main concern can be seen as a bankruptcy declaration towards the musical content.. because thats only generic anyway you only can shine with mix tricks? ..

And in your face? in your face sounds need others that are not in your face to contrast with... everything else is shoving it in your ears and not in your face.. ear piercing tracks are no fun especially in the hand of earpearcing dj´s that play over bad sound systems... The result is an audience of 100% spotty males.. is that your target audience?

[Brainchild]

audioconsult says it like it is.

[Ged]

it would help to know what your using in your master chain - that might help us to give some advice.

[mecdnb]

Originally Posted by Ged

it would help to know what your using in your master chain - that might help us to give some advice.

There should really be anything on the mastering chain imo, except maybe a limiter to catch 0.5 db of peaks. To the other people saying mastering will make it louder.... not really the case, they will maybe do some eq corrections, bit of very mild compression or expansion & maybe & rarely run through tape. But mastering is not going to magically make your track sound super loud, its more a polishing process.

Loudness comes from the mixdown itself imo, if you are filling out your frequencies correctly, using mild saturation/distortion & bus limiting you should not have any problems reaching near perceived commercial loudness.

[Ged]

Originally Posted by mecdnb

There should really be anything on the mastering chain imo, except maybe a limiter to catch 0.5 db of peaks. To the other people saying mastering will make it louder.... not really the case, they will maybe do some eq corrections, bit of very mild compression or expansion & maybe & rarely run through tape. But mastering is not going to magically make your track sound super loud, its more a polishing process.

Loudness comes from the mixdown itself imo, if you are filling out your frequencies correctly, using mild saturation/distortion & bus limiting you should not have any problems reaching near perceived commercial loudness.

Hmmm... your joking right??

[mecdnb]

Originally Posted by Ged

Hmmm... your joking right??

Why would I be joking? I know lots of people who work like this & get great results. For one it usually allows instruments to seperate better as each group of instruments is bussed together rather than into one compressor. If compression needs to be done on the whole mix let the mastering house do it, same goes with any corrective eq to the entire mix.(if you get your mix right you should only need the mildest of compression on the master, sidechaining aside)

So again not joking, as I said its my opinion & my technique. A lot of other people work this way, clearly you don't. No sweat.

[Ged]

Originally Posted by mecdnb

Why would I be joking? I know lots of people who work like this & get great results. For one it usually allows instruments to seperate better as each group of instruments is bussed together rather than into one compressor. If compression needs to be done on the whole mix let the mastering house do it, same goes with any corrective eq to the entire mix.(if you get your mix right you should only need the mildest of compression on the master, sidechaining aside)

So again not joking, as I said its my opinion & my technique. A lot of other people work this way, clearly you don't. No sweat.

Ok, but the guy is wanting "Modern pro" loudness - "In your face" etc - it's not something than you can simply get from compressing -1dB etc...

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Ged

Ok, but the guy is wanting "Modern pro" loudness - "In your face" etc - it's not something than you can simply get from compressing -1dB etc...

you can when your sources are fat enough.. when i look at theese loudness meters i can get into the 6 db range without engaging a compressor..so whats the goal..to have it zero? ok..for that you need to maximize the hell out of it and punch in holes for the kick drum.. but that dont makes it really louder..just more squashed..

people that do so are more in the add soundtrack business than in the club sound business. And thats where this loud trend comes from..screaming for attention on an overcrowded market..

so its actually a problem that you have to compete with the morrons.. and have to make it loud...
but please not by aiming for the highscore in the morron competition.. actually you can be well 6 db lower in the loudness than them and still cut it on beatport..or your laptop speakers...

So aim for the midfield in the loudness competition not for the max, thats the cheap positions

Problem.. it is not really possible to do that without compression at all.. And low compression has created some realy good sounding punchy club records in the past, but theese was at home levels just nothing.. such tracks would just disappear in the beatport player..So not likely to happen again..

Now the stuff is made for home levels and therfore tends to sound at home better than in a club..except the club has an exellent system with really fine highs and lot of precission in the lowend.. like sitting in a big headphone.... than such over compressed tracks are just like a wall of sound you more or less swim in. What has an aesthetics to it .. But thats just the sound you get anyway when a dj runs in a limiter and just dont gets that.. So a likely scenario.

It is not your job as producer to create the endresult how it sounds in a car or in a club with dj deff.. you make the master that surrvives such treatments.

Thats actually what has happened.. people go to a club..and recreate at home the sound esthetics they have heard there..that goes back to the club.. gets squashed even more.. others hear that..recreate it.. and so on and so on up to the moment its totally flat and jsut screaming loud..and the only thing that really cuts thru are pling plong game sound melodies and foot nail shrinking lullaby melodies.. ..just to ease the pain of the pure high level midrange.... great..

The only advantage of max loudness tracks is
a track that is allready destroyed by a limiter cant be further destroyed by one.. but to sound shit from the start with, is not the art in music production... that it still sounds defined and good when the sound is getting shit is the top quality production..

To set your loudness it can be good to squeeze the max out of a mix as a test.. and adjust the settings that it sounds good on that max squeezing... and than reduce the loudness/limiting by at least 6 db.
You let it breath again.. open it up..

Than you have a really loud enough mix for anything, but still is not totally death and deff proved.

But you ensured that it is able to survive any additonal compression, maybe by bad mastering guys that see it as mandatory to compress everything they get in theire hands, or dj bad & stoned late in the night that drive the soundsystem to the limit, the most case scenario....... And you have to estimate that hard driven soundsystem will be hard and brittle in the high mids and highs.. so you better avoid hard and brittle highs and mids in your production and have them smooth as silk..

than they have a larger sweetspot when things get nasty later in the club, You are not as cheap sounding as many others than.

[mecdnb]

Originally Posted by Ged

Ok, but the guy is wanting "Modern pro" loudness - "In your face" etc - it's not something than you can simply get from compressing -1dB etc...

Sorry not gonna continue to argue with you as you clearly have no idea what I am saying or have not read anything I said. Did you not see me mention bus compression, saturation etc? Loudness does not have to have anything to do with compression, so you what are you talking about. If you use distortion/saturation & bus compression effectively you should not have to use master compression as a tool for loudness, instead using it as the final glue for your mix.

[scoobs1971]

Can you post a link to a .wav? Easier to comment if I can hear what it's all about.

During the past year I have been struggling to get the same loudness and punch as David Guetta, Rihanna, SHM etc. and since a few weeks I'm finally there.

A few important notes:
- although the kick is predominate, you don't need the sub lows. Most empasis will be between 80-100hz. You'll also need to boost between 2k-4k, depending on your source to make it cut through the mix.
- on bass you hardly need subs either. Maybe sometimes, but just touching the subwoofer. Emphasis on the low frequencies just above the kick. Make sure they give each other room. A boost somewhere in the 2k-5k makes it more audible, so you can set the fader level a little lower to create more headroom.
- proper gain staging is important. Mostly I set my audio waves and VSTi levels peaking at -12dbfs.
- for subjective loudness you will need to push up all the midrange instruments especially in the 1k-4k range.
- ocassionally I have some compression on individual tracks just to smooth things out, emphasize the attack or lower the attack.
- I rarely use compression on groups or saturation tools other than FX and almost never parallel compression or multiband compression.
- I mix into a 2buss compressor SSL style 2:1 or 4:1 GR around 3-4 db. Experiment with A & R settings and listen to what it does to the attack and the pumping. I always try to have the release pumping at the track tempo.
- I always try to match a mastered reference track @-12dbfs. My average master level is around -6/-5 dbfs. Your mix should match the apparent loudness of the -12dbfs reference track.
- to check if it's possible to make my mix loud enough I will check the mix with a peak limiter and maximizer @-0.3dbfs. When I hear things distort I'll check the balance of my low frequency instruments or see if a HPF @ 20hz on the master buss before compression/limiting will clean up the low mud. Sometimes cleaning up the mud between 200hz-400hz will also help. When the balance changes after limiting, something ain't right so it's back to the drawing board. Only the density and loudness should increase.
- almost all instruments are heavily sidechained with the kick.
- I rarely use extreme EQ boosting on ITB sounds unless I really need to fix a boring dull sound. But I'd prefer to change the source sound when it doesn't sound good enough.

In the end it's all about proper sound selection, well thought out EQ'ing, lots of sidechain compression and excellent balancing. No special tricks, but just hard work

Hope this helps.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by mecdnb

Loudness does not have to have anything to do with compression, so you what are you talking about. If you use distortion/saturation & bus compression effectively you should not have to use master compression as a tool for loudness, instead using it as the final glue for your mix.

that is not true because compression is a distortion of the source signals..Or the other way.. ..saturation is is nothing else than limiting. in its hardest form a straight hard clipping..in the smoother nice form a soft clipping..

But i agree with the master comperssor thing..

[mecdnb]

Originally Posted by audioconsult

that is not true because compression is a distortion of the source signals..Or the other way.. ..saturation is is nothing else than limiting. in its hardest form a straight clipping..

But i agree with the master comperssor thing..

Sorry I didnt elaborate, I was talking about compression in the traditional sense, I actually mentioned in another post today that distortion is extreme compression. Anyway, harmonics = thickness = more in your face imo. But yeah, dont rely on master compression to give you 'that' sound.

[audioconsult]

in any case 2db more loudness wont make anybody more popular.. only hits make you popular..

[ksandvik]

Are you trying to help DJs with very poor technique as most DJs know how to control gain to set the same levels for tracks?