What would turn the tide in the Great Debate?

[Mononym]

I can honestly tell you I dont know, Im not tracking peoples names. Its just a vibe I get from reading and posting on this site.

Maybe I have been misinterpreting what ive been reading; how ITB is inferior in all ways compared to hardware.

but now i am enlightened. So we all learn something. I typically stay away from the Ana vs Digi threads anyway because I could care less.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by Mononym

I can honestly tell you I dont know, Im not tracking peoples names. Its just a vibe I get from reading and posting on this site.

Maybe I have been misinterpreting what ive been reading; how ITB is inferior in all ways compared to hardware.

but now i am enlightened. So we all learn something. I typically stay away from the Ana vs Digi threads anyway.

Well, that's the point I think is worth making, this "analog purist elite" out there has become this huge myth.

I think what happens is people confuse preference for ideology:

If someone says, "I think a Jupiter 8 sounds better than DIVA," then he's labeled that "Analog guy."

But, if someone says, "I think a Jupiter 8 sounds better than an Oberheim OBxa," then he's just expressing a preference of one instrument over the other.

So, if you own and use both, isn't preferring one over the other just a preference and not some political stance?


(Yes, this is a tired debate, but someday we need to get to a maturity where we can express prefences without them being labeled or assumed as some politcal synth agenda _


-andrews

[Praxisaxis]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

But, WHO is/are 100% analog who disapprove of soft synths?

I think there are a few people around here who simply don't like the sound of soft synths, or otherwise the new sort of "ITB" sound for want of a better descriptor.

My point is, so what? People like what they like. There's enough commonality on GS for good discussions, regardless. As you say, most contributors here either use h/w synths or are interested in them, as well as frequently making use of software, so that there's a continuum. No need for WWIII.

[ozy]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

this "analog purist elite"

right.

They are becoming a real danger for democracy.

They despise common people. They are people with money who can afford buying expensive vintage synths.

They meet in fancy Swiss resorts for long weekends of secret discussions, and conspire for a Mono-poly on world market.

they have imposed a Unified Thought on the media industry.

They enslave people, promote wars.

They inter-marry.

And, among others... I don't want to sound racist but...

... look at their names: Oberheim, Moog, Perlman...

... need I say more?!?

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

someday we need to get to a maturity where we can express prefences without them being labeled or assumed as some politcal synth agenda

fairly obvious, isn't it?

[Praxisaxis]

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by ozy

right.

They are becoming a real danger for democracy.

They despise common people. They are people with money who can afford buying expensive vintage synths.

They meet in fancy Swiss resorts for long weekends of secret discussions, and conspire for a Mono-poly on world market.

they have imposed a Unified Thought on the media industry.

They enslave people, promote wars.

They inter-marry.

And, among others... I don't want to sound racist but...

... look at their names: Oberheim, Moog, Perlman...

... need I say more?!?








fairly obvious, isn't it?

Ha! Well, if you'd read how people react, you'd think all that were true!

And on the "Fairly obvious" comment... You'd think. Stick around for another few thousand posts and you'll see how comedically not obvious it really seems to be around here.

Funny post

-andrews

[Mononym]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

. Stick around for another few thousand posts...

I hope to be around that long. that means im doing something right...

[bug2342]

Originally Posted by NEXUS-6

Jup 6 MiniMoog Dx7..

Analog pushes air software not so much.

Sorry in advance for singling you out, but this is the classic example of a post that tends to drive the analog vs. digital vs. software debate to it´s utter state of absurdity.

Hint: DX7 is probably the most famous digital synth...
(+sines "push more air" and works better in the digital domain)

I think most people here will use analog and digital (hard and soft). Obviously no software will ever sound as much like a Model D as a Model D. On the other hand no analog will ever sound as much like Zebra as Zebra.

The tricky part is, that the great divide does not necessarily run at the digital / analog or hard / soft border. Many people will probably consider an ASB Minimax to be closer to a Model D sound than a Prophet 5 will ever get (even if the Prophet is obviously great). On the other hand an Evolver will get closer to the Prophet sound than a Moog (maybe).

What I´m trying to say: The OMG it´s analog discussion can be kind of strange at times. Yes, there are some sounds, that some analogs do better. But there is hardly THE analog sound, that gets magically reproduced every time an analog synth is used and is absolutely impossible to reach with a digital synth.

While the difference between most analogs is smaller than between some digitals (say Wavestation vs. DX7 vs. M1), it is noteworthy that there is quite a bit of a difference and sometimes a digital synth might even get closer to the analog sound you want than all the analogs you happen to have around.

Or, to simplify: No, your Juno does not sound like a Moog and the a Zebra does not sound like Massive and a D50 does not sound like a Fs1r.

[crufty]

to be honest, analog v digital is like third grade nike v reebok discussions.

which is ok.

I am more concerned about the shift to singles and albums occurring after an artist has released 8 - 10 singles. Which means that an idea in track one that becomes a theme in track 3 before becoming a solid melody in track 5 is less and less likely.

i am all itb and I love the freedom. the sound is good now. it's not omg analog bliss. but i can evolve a track over multiple sessions anywhere on the planet in any time zone.

LuSH is very nice. DIVA is also very nice.

what makes LuSH nice for me is the interface! There, I said it. I have an sh101, literally, under my bed. I have not turned it on in 4 years? maybe 3. I can't believe an sh101 costs more then $200.

I should take it up to the local coffee shop on open night, start an acid bassline, then set that shit on fire.

if the current culture is analog, i want to be counter! **** the majority.

[Carey M]

Originally Posted by crufty

I have an sh101, literally, under my bed. I have not turned it on in 4 years? maybe 3. I can't believe an sh101 costs more then $200.

I should take it up to the local coffee shop on open night, start an acid bassline, then set that shit on fire.

Why not sell it and get yourself something you actually use? Or just spend the money on hookers and coke?

- CM

[cuckoo.old]

I think the closest analogy is butter to margarine.

My mother told me when she was a young girl it was advertised as more or less the same. Her mother put it on the table and didn't tell them it wasn't butter, but my mum knew straight away.
She spat it out, saying it was disgusting.

Today however, plenty of people go nowhere near butter.

[crufty]

Originally Posted by Carey M

Why not sell it and get yourself something you actually use? Or just spend the money on hookers and coke?

- CM

interesting -- go to village farmers market with sh101, chair and sign 'will trade for hookers and blow'

[ozy]

Originally Posted by cuckoo.old

I think the closest analogy is butter to margarine.
My mother told me when she was a young girl it was advertised as more or less the same. Her mother put it on the table and didn't tell them it wasn't butter, but my mum knew straight away. She spat it out, saying it was disgusting. Today however, plenty of people go nowhere near butter.

You mean, Korg is planning to release a digital synth whose name will be ICBINAM (I Can't Believe It's Not A Moog)?

[unfiltered420]

Originally Posted by shponglefan

Wut?

Modern stuff like DSI, Moog, and even modulars loaded with IC's don;t have a particulary "analog sound", that is the sound I associate with electric and vintage electronic instruments, even like an electric guitar or a Rhodes. The raw sound that seems to be so elusive in today's digital world. While I do hear that sound in some modern stuff like Doepfer modulars and discrete designs, it seems like modern companies, not just synth companies, but also modern studio gear makers choose specs, features, cost, and "transparency" over preserving the raw sound that I speak of.

I am not saying that this approach is better, though I like the sound more, just that that is the reality. I use all vintage analog and acoustic instruments and analog tape exclusively in order to create and preserve this enigmatic ideal analog, (with much tedium and inconvenience) and have been somewhat successful in that regard. When I play my mixes vs ITB mixes made with digital instruments or even analog and acoustic instruments recorded digitally, I can really hear the difference, and while it may not appeal to all, it is the sound and feeling I live for. Maybe a little noisier and slightly more distorted, but in the best possible way.

[shponglefan]

^ I agree that modern synths don't sound vintage, but that's because they are modern synths. But to say that a modern analog doesn't sound analog, just doesn't make any sense.

[unfiltered420]

Originally Posted by cuckoo.old

Today however, plenty of people go nowhere near butter.

I have lost about 30 pounds in the past few months, and part of it was eating lots and lots of organic butter. I mean near a half a stick a day. It restores your body's natural supply of anandamide, the body's own version of THC, the psychoactive molecule in cannabis. Not only do I get higher, but when I get the munchies, I pour melted butter over potato chips or eat a butter sandwich. The more natural fat you eat, the less sugar and refined starch you eat, which is the main cause of body fat.

The lesson: to those of you who like ganja, organic butter (regular butter is loaded with anitbiotics and hormones and pesticides residues from cow feed) is a godsend. Even better, make organic ganja butter. Olive Oil is good too, but what's better than butter? And anyone who chooses solidified hydrogenated oil sticks over organic butter is an idiot.

There's a good analogy, digital is the margarine of the musical world, while I prefer the old school organic butter of analog.

[Praxisaxis]

Originally Posted by unfiltered420

I have lost about 30 pounds in the past few months, and part of it was eating lots and lots of organic butter. I mean near a half a stick a day. It restores your body's natural supply of anandamide, the body's own version of THC, the psychoactive molecule in cannabis. Not only do I get higher, but when I get the munchies, I pour melted butter over potato chips or eat a butter sandwich. The more natural fat you eat, the less sugar and refined starch you eat, which is the main cause of body fat.

The lesson: to those of you who like ganja, organic butter (regular butter is loaded with anitbiotics and hormones and pesticides residues from cow feed) is a godsend. Even better, make organic ganja butter. Olive Oil is good too, but what's better than butter? And anyone who chooses solidified hydrogenated oil sticks over organic butter is an idiot.

There's a good analogy, digital is the margarine of the musical world, while I prefer the old school organic butter of analog.

I quite like butter and I'd be willing to eat more of it on your advice, but that's about the worst argument in favour of analogue synths I've ever seen

[VastArray]

Originally Posted by crufty

I should take it up to the local coffee shop on open night, start an acid bassline, then set that shit on fire.

Originally Posted by unfiltered420

Not only do I get higher, but when I get the munchies, I pour melted butter over potato chips or eat a butter sandwich.

I hereby declare this to be the definitive analog vs digital thread of the year.

[bluegreengold]

Ok analog vs digital -- not so interesting really as however you frame the context, the answer is going to be use whichever one is better for the application you have in mind. The producer is the one making conscious decisions about what sounds go into their music, so it's all about taste.

More relevant is discussing what 'good' and what are lesser instruments because if you really get into the analysis of what makes one instrument 'better' than another for whatever application you have, then you come to understand a lot about sound and how go about making electronic music. The issues don't necessarily come down to just sound, or pure fancy preference.

Say you have to choose between a roland 909, a jomox 999, and a d16 drumazon. Which is better? It's going to depend on context, but thinking about it might give you some insight into how you produce music, how you want to produce music, and the limitations and compromises you choose to work with.

The insecurity around the issue is huge. What's most important of all is that you're enjoying making music you like. If you're not doing that, then analyzing what makes one way of working better for you is a good idea.

According to my preferences in computing -- pretty much all commercial software platforms has gone downhill in terms of providing creative value for it's users. This is a complex issue and more abstract than it makes sense going into here, but my take is that pretty much all of the best solutions for creative people were worked out over a decade ago (at least) when it comes to general computer based software. What I've seen over the last 10 years are 'improvements' aimed at taking as much of the creativity out of making music as possible.

I'm not saying that DIVA isn't better than older analog emulation VSTs or that there isn't some great reverb plug in that came out last year.

The big change IMO has been the iPad, and while it's not my cup of tea, it's the first innovative computer device that can be used for music that's actually impressed me in a long time. I have friends who can do whole sets with a couple of pads, performing electronic instruments live in a compelling way that I've never witnessed with people using a laptop onstage.

[laikenf]

Originally Posted by unfiltered420

I have lost about 30 pounds in the past few months, and part of it was eating lots and lots of organic butter. I mean near a half a stick a day. It restores your body's natural supply of anandamide, the body's own version of THC, the psychoactive molecule in cannabis. Not only do I get higher, but when I get the munchies, I pour melted butter over potato chips or eat a butter sandwich. The more natural fat you eat, the less sugar and refined starch you eat, which is the main cause of body fat.

The lesson: to those of you who like ganja, organic butter (regular butter is loaded with anitbiotics and hormones and pesticides residues from cow feed) is a godsend. Even better, make organic ganja butter. Olive Oil is good too, but what's better than butter? And anyone who chooses solidified hydrogenated oil sticks over organic butter is an idiot.

There's a good analogy, digital is the margarine of the musical world, while I prefer the old school organic butter of analog.

You my friend are right in every single word of this post

[jdsowa]

Everything is in decline:

discrete valve->discrete transistor->ICs->digital/analog hybrid->pure digital->ITB digital

orchestras with 25+ muscians->band with 4 musicians->guy standing in front of 4 boxes->guy hunched over a laptop

mcdonalds chicken mcnuggets 10 years ago with good batter>crappy contemporary mcnuggets with healthier batter

[kirkelein]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

Everything is in decline:

discrete valve->discrete transistor->ICs->digital/analog hybrid->pure digital->ITB digital

orchestras with 25+ muscians->band with 4 musicians->guy standing in front of 4 boxes->guy hunched over a laptop

mcdonalds chicken mcnuggets 10 years ago with good batter>crappy contemporary mcnuggets with healthier batter

+1

[crufty]

tubes suck

ics might as well be digital

[draven5]

Originally Posted by unfiltered420

Modern stuff like DSI, Moog, and even modulars loaded with IC's don;t have a particulary "analog sound", that is the sound I associate with electric and vintage electronic instruments, even like an electric guitar or a Rhodes. The raw sound that seems to be so elusive in today's digital world. While I do hear that sound in some modern stuff like Doepfer modulars and discrete designs, it seems like modern companies, not just synth companies, but also modern studio gear makers choose specs, features, cost, and "transparency" over preserving the raw sound that I speak of.

I am not saying that this approach is better, though I like the sound more, just that that is the reality. I use all vintage analog and acoustic instruments and analog tape exclusively in order to create and preserve this enigmatic ideal analog, (with much tedium and inconvenience) and have been somewhat successful in that regard. When I play my mixes vs ITB mixes made with digital instruments or even analog and acoustic instruments recorded digitally, I can really hear the difference, and while it may not appeal to all, it is the sound and feeling I live for. Maybe a little noisier and slightly more distorted, but in the best possible way.

Today's analogs sound different because

1) today's cheap production methods. Companies trying to squeeze every penny. If they made a Jupiter 8 today it would be made with cheap analog parts made in china.

2) technology - yeah things were more primitive back then but heck! they made synths sound RAW!

3) cheap cheap cheap methods. (yep said it again)

4) different people making synths now



I will say not every sound should be so RAW and analog. But I do prefer hardware as apposed to software but there is a time for everything.



One thing I like about VA's as opposed to lots of analogs is the sheer amount of different synthesis sounds you can accomplish with them. In that respect I think they are worth using.


At a certain point you need to balance what's practical with what's not. I personally have now mixed my work flow sequencing in logic but doing everything else outside the box. For me it's more inspiring.

[ozy]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

Everything is in decline:

discrete valve->discrete transistor->ICs->digital/analog hybrid->pure digital->ITB digital

orchestras with 25+ muscians->band with 4 musicians->guy standing in front of 4 boxes->guy hunched over a laptop

mcdonalds chicken mcnuggets 10 years ago with good batter>crappy contemporary mcnuggets with healthier batter

not to mention: the Universe is slowly cooling and dying.

We are not in the Information Age, we are in the Entropy age.

I am presently disassembling in my elementary components.

Oh, wait: since I still am functioning, this means that I am just going discrete.

Analogue is back!

History is cyclical! Better times are ahead of us after the current slump!

So which is it?

[unfiltered420]

Originally Posted by draven5

One thing I like about VA's as opposed to lots of analogs is the sheer amount of different synthesis sounds you can accomplish with them. In that respect I think they are worth using.


At a certain point you need to balance what's practical with what's not. I personally have now mixed my work flow sequencing in logic but doing everything else outside the box. For me it's more inspiring.

I agree, but for me I have so very many beautiful pure and raw sounds available to me in the form of analog keys, bass, drums, tabla, etc. and so many great effects that I have not after years gotten tired (other than occasional writers block) of anything or even tried half of the shit thats possible as far as combinations of keys, effects, tape edits, varispeeds, tape delays, echo chambers, etc etc etc. So with so much at my disposal (which may not seem like very much to anyone with Reason or the like) I never run out of creative ideas, so to even consider a digital synth is absurd. Maybe after a few decades I will exhaust all the possibilities, but with different arrangements that seems impossible.

However, if I were to hear a digital synth or effect that actually sounded as good anything I have, I would check it out. I have heard quite a few, and nothing really impresses me, especially things like the Virus.

As far as practicality, yes I have thought so many times about going digital, I have 16 track interface/mixer and pro tools and logic, and for a while I was using digital reverbs, but I found that with the raw analog/acoustic sound I have, nothing digital works. So I experimented with using my live room and bathroom as echo chambers, which actually work quite well. Nothing super fancy, but it complements the instruments and opens them up well.

But I will at least do one album, my first, all analog. After that, if I get an audience or demand I might try a digital album. Its so difficult for me to go back to digital after tape, though. It is just too unforgiving and sterile, even with analog instruments. And drums and bass? Forget it, I refuse to record either without at least tape on the front end. What tape does to the electric bass is no joke. Drums can work to digital with compressors on each track, but bass you really lose the magic, maybe not because of the conversion per se, just what is lost from tape. So practical, no, but creative, most def.

[djugel]

I'm a big fan of 80's digital..

for me it's more about hardware vs software.. and for my laptop.. I've finally came to grips that USB sucks.

[xanderbeanz]

Can we do something about the smell? I mean, getting the oscillators to not alias and improving the filter resolution is important, but it's mainly about the smell. My Mono/Poly smells so much more analogue than my An1x, you can really tell the difference, they just haven't got it right.

Could we have some kind of spray, like a musty/woodgrain/slight fizzy burning electrical smell spray gun to add this scent to our VA's and DAWs (just spray it over the monitor) hey, maybe even better you could have a small collection of scent bottles INSIDE THE COMPUTER MONITOR which released a scent when you opened up a soft synth, you know, "Mint condition Mono/poly" or "Fairly well looked after OBX" right down to "Arp Odyssey that's been pissed on and i'm fairly sure has a family of rats living inside it" or "Crazy smokin' joe's bashed up DX7"

I reckon if they could nail the smell, this debate would be over, we could sell all the VCO stuff and just spend our money on VST's and little sets of spray canisters

[ozy]

Originally Posted by xanderbeanz

Can we do something about the smell? Could we have some kind of spray, like a musty/woodgrain/slight fizzy burning electrical smell spray gun to add this scent to our VA's and DAWs (just spray it over the monitor) hey, maybe even better you could have a small collection of scent bottles INSIDE THE COMPUTER MONITOR which released a scent when you opened up a soft synth, you know, "Mint condition Mono/poly" or "Fairly well looked after OBX" right down to "Arp Odyssey that's been pissed on and i'm fairly sure has a family of rats living inside it"

Check this video.

These people will probably build a USB "synth flavor" interface for you!

USB Wine, download wine straight from the vineyards ! - YouTube

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by crufty

tubes suck

ics might as well be digital

May I just add that patch-memory takes away from the analogue sound. I never use anything with patch memory. All those ugly digital signals disrupting my analogue flow!

Last time I had a digital synth I had to clean the place by hanging A kilo of amethyst in the north corner of the studio for a week. I then had to re-tune all my synths so that middle A was 434 not 440