The new MS Surface.....

[acronym]

Thats the surface which is RT and not pro which is x86 that allows you to use ableton etc.

[sovietpop]

Imho, the Ipad is great as a midi controller but that's about it.
I've bought lots of synth apps like Animoog, Ppg Wave, IMS20 etc but i am not using them because of midi jitter and or latency.
I have been playing keyboard for almost 20 years so maybe i am just very picky about latency. Also i absolutely hate Itunes and the fact that Apples force you to update your device (IOS6 is a piece of sh*t).

Personally i would wait for the Surface.

BTW there is no way to transfer your apps purchases (you cant sell the apps or give them)

Anyway the Ipad is great but personally i would wait to see if the Surface could be an alternative to the Ipad.

[jspitza]

Originally Posted by acronym

Thats the surface which is RT and not pro which is x86 that allows you to use ableton etc.

Ah thanks for that little tidbit. Naturally this was my first stop to find out app compatibility, application etc since I have not followed newer technology for some time.

[kazper]

The surface RT is a iPad like device, the surface pro is allegedly a PC in a iPad like cloak. I see its used heavy in the enterprise atmosphere where the iPad was shunned because of the anti apple.

Look at your software your planing on using and then verify that it can work on
1) windows 8
2) the surface pro hardware specs

Honestly, I would get a good quality laptop or ultra book over the surface pro. I would highly contend the surface pro as a second machine or alternative for performance needs.

I'm always looking the other way for anything with Microsoft's name that is not a game system or mouse and keyboard. I did have excellent use from a microsoft router for 4 years.

[marcgood]

I'm getting an iPad finally at Xmas for some music work. Surface looks interesting but I have no use for it unless the apps are more appealing than the iPad. And I already use a Kindle for basic tablet stuff.

[SSquirrel]

Originally Posted by kazper

The surface RT is a iPad like device, the surface pro is allegedly a PC in a iPad like cloak. I see its used heavy in the enterprise atmosphere where the iPad was shunned because of the anti apple.

The way u worded things makes it sound like the surface is already everywhere in corporate America, when it isn't even out yet. Tons of companies are using the iPad and the iPhone has been replacing the Blackberry as the phone of choice. U may have meant u think it will see that kind of usage but it definitely hasn't yet


I think that Surface is a fail at the current price point. The $500 model doesn't come w the keyboard, that is an extra 120 or 130. The $600 model comes w a keyboard. Considering their big ad right now is Click In and the standard model can't that is kind of stupid. Not to mention the bad blood MS is starting by surprising their OEMs with the Surface a few months back and now they are undercutting the initial models people have been announcing

[Diametro]

Closed nature of iOS is a big minus for music production ...

Looking forward to Surface Pro ... Could be the first real challenger to iPad in music production ...

[Dpro]

Originally Posted by sovietpop

Also i absolutely hate Itunes and the fact that Apples force you to update your device (IOS6 is a piece of sh*t).

Personally i would wait for the Surface.

BTW there is no way to transfer your apps purchases (you cant sell the apps or give them)

Anyway the Ipad is great but personally i would wait to see if the Surface could be an alternative to the Ipad.

Ah excuse me but Apple does not force you to update to IOS6. It tells you that an update is available. Its solely up to you to decide if you want to update. My 4S is still running IOS5 and I have not updated it. It has let me know I can but I have not done it. Same goes for the Ipad.

[muziksculp]

Originally Posted by Diametro

Closed nature of iOS is a big minus for music production ...

Looking forward to Surface Pro ... Could be the first real challenger to iPad in music production ...

+1

[kazper]

Originally Posted by SSquirrel

The way u worded things makes it sound like the surface is already everywhere in corporate America, when it isn't even out yet. Tons of companies are using the iPad and the iPhone has been replacing the Blackberry as the phone of choice. U may have meant u think it will see that kind of usage but it definitely hasn't yet


I think that Surface is a fail at the current price point. The $500 model doesn't come w the keyboard, that is an extra 120 or 130. The $600 model comes w a keyboard. Considering their big ad right now is Click In and the standard model can't that is kind of stupid. Not to mention the bad blood MS is starting by surprising their OEMs with the Surface a few months back and now they are undercutting the initial models people have been announcing

I'm aledging it's use in company's that have been anti apple as a alternative product for simular type functions.

I don't think it will flop, just think it will eat at new pc sales. The keyboard is a option like the covers and keyboards for the iPad. I think if it was included, they would have more chances of selling it as a pc replacement.

iOS is closed, don't think that some developers don't like that approach.

[natrixgli]

Surface Pro won't be ideal for making music unless apps are created with touch enabled screens in mind. Otherwise you'll end up attaching a keyboard and mouse which defeats the purpose of a self-contained tablet.

Imagine trying to hit the little arrows to expand track groups in Ableton Live. Or trying to move envelope points with your (proportionally) fat fingers. Even with a stylus, you will find this challenging. The Styli designed for capacitive touch screens are not sharp points at the end, they're rather chubby.

For me the advantage of tablets ends when the application is not properly designed for a tablet. This is why Windows tablets failed years ago. Windows programs are designed for a pointer with greater accuracy then a finger.

Since Windows 8 is also meant to be used on a desktop, that means a company like Ableton would have to develop two interfaces for the same application. It could happen, but not for a while.

I don't see the Surface as providing any advantage over a laptop, especially when price is factored in. The only advantage I can see is being able to say "I have a surface".

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by natrixgli

Surface Pro won't be ideal for making music unless apps are created with touch enabled screens in mind. Otherwise you'll end up attaching a keyboard and mouse which defeats the purpose of a self-contained tablet.

Imagine trying to hit the little arrows to expand track groups in Ableton Live. Or trying to move envelope points with your (proportionally) fat fingers. Even with a stylus, you will find this challenging. The Styli designed for capacitive touch screens are not sharp points at the end, they're rather chubby.

For me the advantage of tablets ends when the application is not properly designed for a tablet. This is why Windows tablets failed years ago. Windows programs are designed for a pointer with greater accuracy then a finger.

Since Windows 8 is also meant to be used on a desktop, that means a company like Ableton would have to develop two interfaces for the same application. It could happen, but not for a while.

I don't see the Surface as providing any advantage over a laptop, especially when price is factored in. The only advantage I can see is being able to say "I have a surface".

I think we will see music software designed and re-designed for Surface Pro ... But much will depend on how sales develop and if Microsoft encourages the pro audio market ...

I think there is ALOT of value in a tablet vs. a laptop in a compact or mobile setup or even one that places a high value on aesthetics and ergonomics ... I've never liked working with a laptop in my studio ... The keyboard is a big waste of space imo and is usually difficult to use (requiring a separate keyboard usually), makes the screen too far away and then you've got all these cables going in every direction and oftentimes in ways that just don't work ...

I'm not saying there aren't going to be challenges and compromises in developing the tablet as a PC alternative in the studio but I think it could be a VERY useful tool and offer a best of both worlds situation with a fast, direct touch interface as well as a more in-depth traditional PC interface ... I don't think it's too much to develop both ...

Personally, I think Microsoft has a huge opportunity here with Windows 8 ... I am very much going to consider a Windows 8 tablet or touchscreen PC as my next major computer studio purchase ...

I think Microsoft with Windows 8 may have gotten the formula right by making its tablet an extension of the PC rather than a phone (like Apple did with iOS) ...

I recently acquired an iPad 2 and bought an Alesis ioDock ... and though it's nifty and might find a permanent place in my studio, it seems a bit toylike and not a complete solution ...

[login]

I want an iPad so bad, but the Surface could be a good alternative. We must wait ad see how many popular music apps are ported to the surface.

Having a proper USB conection, a normal management of files, being able to host some DAW's and vst's would be big advantages for all music apps now in the iOS ecosystem.

[marcgood]

Originally Posted by Diametro

Closed nature of iOS is a big minus for music production ...

Looking forward to Surface Pro ... Could be the first real challenger to iPad in music production ...

O Rly? Tell that to Gorillaz and the many dozens of music apps available in the iStore. Sorry but this is a nutso statement.

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by marcgood

O Rly? Tell that to Gorillaz and the many dozens of music apps available in the iStore. Sorry but this is a nutso statement.

I probably should have elaborated more but I thought the statement obvious for those who know ...

It's really difficult to get wav files onto an iPad or once you create them onto another device ... Basically, you are limited to cloud options which can be very slow and not how most producers like to work ...

Is this what your statement refers to?

I realize people are using iPad to create tracks ... I will too possibly ... But my statement exists in the context of this thread and specifically the MS Surface Pro, which will as others have pointed out, will have a far more convenient file system similar to what we're used to already and everyone I think would agree is more desirable than the workarounds needed with iPad ...

I will say it again however nutso ... The closed nature of iOS -- or at least the iPad as it exists now -- is a big minus for music production ... Just because something can be done doesn't by any means make it desirable ...

[kazper]

I think you could transfer files between computer and IOS device if the IOS software is programed for that type of feature. The crutch with the IOS devices is you need to use itunes to transfer any files between IOS and computer. I'm sure there may be other ways but that is how all programs that I have handle file transfer.

Is it as easy as say network browsing or using a memory card, no.
Is it that big of a pain in the ass, no.
I'm sure we all would like to just find the IOS device and transfer it and it's just there, maybe a new feature in the new new iPad and IOS 6.5

I didn't think about the interfacing aspect of the surface that was brought up before. In some aspects the touch screen and gesture could just be handled by the OS and the application only see's the interface like a mouse click etc.. We have a few touch screen computers for machine interfaces and they all have software features that handle that function, but do it poorly in comparison to using a Android or IOS device where it is a major part of the experience.

[Diametro]

I doubt Apple will allow direct file transfer anytime soon ... It goes against the whole concept of iOS and the $$$-making machine that is iTunes ...

Direct file transfer is exactly one of the reason why Surface Pro appeals ...

Another is that Microsoft actually supports its products long term ...

Another is that anything that works on Windows 7 will theoretically work on Surface Pro ... In short, it's a real computer in tablet form ...

The downside will be is that it will be premium priced ... And the question to be determined is ... will it be worth it?

[kazper]

To the original poster my opinion at this point based on pricing, features etc is that as a product it follows most of Microsofts hardware products and does not have huge iPad like success. I do think that it will open the door for more utrabook styled PC tablets that fill the much needed gap between a ipad/tablet and a desktop/laptop machine from the many PC manufactures.

In the end they win & we win, I wouldn't go without a good laptop/desktop and my iPad.

Depending on your needs is where the surface may or may not work for you.

[marcgood]

I welcome new entries like Surface. Competitin will urge forth new features, better specs, more choice.

[sovietpop]

Originally Posted by Dpro

Ah excuse me but Apple does not force you to update to IOS6. It tells you that an update is available. Its solely up to you to decide if you want to update. My 4S is still running IOS5 and I have not updated it. It has let me know I can but I have not done it. Same goes for the Ipad.

I had to restore my Ipad because i had trouble with latency (still have trouble), guess what , i had to update to iso 6 even if i made a backup of my system so YES they don't give you the choice if you have to restore your system.

[PapaSon]

Originally Posted by marcgood

I welcome new entries like Surface. Competitin will urge forth new features, better specs, more choice.

bingo.

The only reason why we have to put up with the Ipad's limited interface options is because they are the only game in town for a real high end tablet.

As for music making, I would love to use my ipad to run logic or or pro tools, with all my plugins but that will never happen. On a windows tablet, however, there is hope that in the forseeable future i can run a full fledged DAW with real powerful plugins of the platform. So its all about the OS isn't it?

[jspitza]

Originally Posted by PapaSon

bingo.

The only reason why we have to put up with the Ipad's limited interface options is because they are the only game in town for a real high end tablet.

As for music making, I would love to use my ipad to run logic or or pro tools, with all my plugins but that will never happen. On a windows tablet, however, there is hope that in the forseeable future i can run a full fledged DAW with real powerful plugins of the platform. So its all about the OS isn't it?

And at least one God dammed built in USB port. The lack of direct file transfer drives me to drink.

[BM0]

Originally Posted by kazper

The surface RT is a iPad like device, the surface pro is allegedly a PC in a iPad like cloak. I see its used heavy in the enterprise atmosphere where the iPad was shunned because of the anti apple.

Corporate market isn't anti-Apple. Apple is anti-corporate market. I think that there is possibility that approach could hurt Apple as it did when Windows 95/NT came to homes and businesses. It was a different time, but people like using the same computer at home as work, and vice-versa. As the saying goes, history can repeat itself. Only time will tell.
I work for a company that was predominantly Macs in the early nineties. Eventually the replaced all Macs with Windows (around the time I started work there). Also, we've tried working with Apple recently to get iPads to meet security requirements of our infrastructure and they just seemed not to care. They were not helpful at all.

[natrixgli]

Originally Posted by BM0

Corporate market isn't anti-Apple. Apple is anti-corporate market.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Apple isn't going after IT Departments, they're bypassing the gatekeepers and going right to the powers above. If you work in a corporate IT department, it's only a matter of time before a VP of something or another will come in and tell to make his iDevice work.

And actually they're better than Android for business. You can't remote wipe Android devices. And Blackberry is pretty much like a fax machine in terms of appeal these days. Windows phone is gaining ground, but still playing catch-up in a big way.

So yeah, Apple is all about the corporate market. They're just going after it in a different way. And the more flexible work environments become, the more people's technology preference is tied to what they carry in their pocket.

[BM0]

Originally Posted by natrixgli

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Apple isn't going after IT Departments, they're bypassing the gatekeepers and going right to the powers above. If you work in a corporate IT department, it's only a matter of time before a VP of something or another will come in and tell to make his iDevice work.

Yep. Happened already. Like I said we tried working with Apple to get iOS devices in our infrastructure, but all we got was some ordinary support tech that had no clue about what we were talking about in regards to our security requirements. Our execs trust IT's judgement when it comes to computer security, so they are not pushing us regardless of Apple not meeting our requirements.
There is a third party called Amtel that makes provisioning software for iOS, but it's not good. If Apple cared enough, they would write their own provisioning system.
There are going to be Windows 8 tablets that can be dropped right into a company's Active Directory domain (Windows infrastructure) and get security policies just like Windows desktops. Plus they will be able to run the native Microsoft Office apps. I've evaluated Office 2013 preview and it looks to be geared towards the Windows 8 environment.

[polybonk]

You could just make your own controller on surface with this:

Sensomusic Usine

I think that will be a killer combo!

[spaceacademy]

I really like some of my music Ipad apps but in truth im finding it a bit of a hassle to integrate in to my setup. When that happens gear tends to take a back seat. latency on some Ipad apps are shockingly bad. Im sure this will all improve over time though.

As a full blown control surface for something like a Daw mixer its not geling with me. Its basically to small. Am I the only one who wants to see one twice as large. Heck Ill take one eight times the size. Chances of that being made is about one in a billion as every ones obsessed with miniaturisation

[spaceacademy]

Originally Posted by jspitza

And at least one God dammed built in USB port. The lack of direct file transfer drives me to drink.

Here here!
The process of getting sounds in to your Ipad and their apps couldnt be more awkward.

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by spaceacademy

I really like some of my music Ipad apps but in truth im finding it a bit of a hassle to integrate in to my setup. When that happens gear tends to take a back seat. latency on some Ipad apps are shockingly bad. Im sure this will all improve over time though.

As a full blown control surface for something like a Daw mixer its not geling with me. Its basically to small. Am I the only one who wants to see one twice as large. Heck Ill take one eight times the size. Chances of that being made is about one in a billion as every ones obsessed with miniaturisation

The nice thing about the Microsoft approach is that you will see all sorts of different size tablets emerge ...

The Apple approach is to make one product to maximize profits and make it as simple as possible for the lowest common denominator ...

.....

I read some info on Surface Pro yesterday ... Expect pricing to be like a premium ultrabook, meaning $1000+ .... That might seem like a lot -- and I'm sure prices will come down -- but remember there's an i5 in there ...