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Eigenharp Tau. Anyone owns one ?
Yeah.. What about it ? Anyone here own one ? It's something i'm seriously thinking about buying ( It's the only option anyway, the Pico is pretty much a toy, and the Alpha has gone up in price and is now ridiculously expensive )
Unfortunately no stores stocks it, pretty much impossible to try.
And if i don't want to blow into that thing ( ) , is it still possible to get some really expressive lead lines with it ( controlling AU/VST softsynths , or maybe a CV controlled analog synth ) ?
__________________ "Most people are fools, most authority is malignant, God does not exist, and everything is wrong." Ted Nelson " Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humour was provided to console him for what he is." Oscar Wilde "99% of musicians are not business people, which is why everyone makes money off of them - except them." Sqye
I saw someone perform with the Eigenharp pico the other day. He's an amazing percussionist but he doesn't have much background in harmonic theory.
He was playing the "electric guitar" live in this funk band. I asked him about it and he said that you have to program the key/chords of the song into the software. He also said that it required a lot of practice. It's not like you just plug it in and it sounds good. You have to learn different fingerings and scales. The nice thing is that you have to learn about 1/1000th of the number that you have to learn on the piano, because they are the same in every key and scale.
It was pretty amazing.
Those guys on youtube who are playing it with the breath pipe look pretty dumb, but they sound great.
Both Mac and Windows are supported. The breathpipe is just one of the controllers available and is entirely optional. You have pressure. pitch and yaw on each key and a strip controller so there are lots of ways other than blowing. In fact, there is a new agane for using Audiocubes directly with an Eigenharp.
Some people prefer to controlAU/VSTs in a daw but the Eigenharp SW can host them directly. The latter is better (IMHO) for performance use. There are (virtual) MIDI outs that you can connect up to whatevery you like as well.
If you want to know something specific, feel free to ask or we could do a hangout on G+ if you like.
Location: Somewhere between France and Absurdistan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMilton
If you want to know something specific, feel free to ask or we could do a hangout on G+ if you like.
- How do you feel in general about the construction build ( the structure, the keys, ..) ? Would you feel confident travelling with it for a gig , for example ?
Any reliability issues so far ?
@spaceman, this video shows some of the attention of detail that's going into Eigenharp's construction, it explains how the keys were made and designed:
I was interested, but lack of PC software deterred me.
I'd love to hear from somebody who uses it.
Just for the record, the Eigenharp initially launched without Windows software, but it's now been supported for almost two years and about 1/3rd of the users use their Eigenharp with Windows 7.
I was seriously considering one but at the time the lack of Windows software and the fact that it stupidly doesn't just spit out MIDI or OSC made it a non-starter. Maybe if they made a VSTi controller that was cross platform I'd consider one again... but for now... no. The investment in time and money needed to really make this work is considerable and their Byzantine software setup is the last straw.
Instead I went with a Starrlabs z7. Horrible. Felt like a cheap toy. Sent it right back. They should be ashamed of what they charge for it.
So in the end I went running back to my trusty Novations. I'm not really a "keyboard" player but I find I can get around the keys pretty well and whip out a nice solo if the wind is with me. The keybeds feel great, the combo of aftertouch and xy pad give me a lot of expressive control and I can play it while I still have a guitar strapped to me.
Controllers like the Eigenharps seem really cool... but in a way they seem like they're a solution to a problem that I don't have.
I was seriously considering one but at the time the lack of Windows software and the fact that it stupidly doesn't just spit out MIDI or OSC made it a non-starter
The Eigenharps ship with setups that can just spit out MIDI or OSC, no AU/VST hosting required if you don't want. There's even someone writing Max components that are driven by OSC directly from the Eigenharp software, if that's your thing: Max for Eigenharp | Using Max/MSP to control the Eigenharp
I was seriously considering one but at the time the lack of Windows software and the fact that it stupidly doesn't just spit out MIDI or OSC made it a non-starter. Maybe if they made a VSTi controller that was cross platform I'd consider one again... but for now... no. The investment in time and money needed to really make this work is considerable and their Byzantine software setup is the last straw.
Instead I went with a Starrlabs z7. Horrible. Felt like a cheap toy. Sent it right back. They should be ashamed of what they charge for it.
So in the end I went running back to my trusty Novations. I'm not really a "keyboard" player but I find I can get around the keys pretty well and whip out a nice solo if the wind is with me. The keybeds feel great, the combo of aftertouch and xy pad give me a lot of expressive control and I can play it while I still have a guitar strapped to me.
Controllers like the Eigenharps seem really cool... but in a way they seem like they're a solution to a problem that I don't have.
I think of it sort of like the harmonic table keyboard. If you become virtuosic with it, you can play things that no other instrument can play. But do you want to be married to a device that occupies such a niche role?
The QWERTY keyboard was designed to slow people down so that they wouldn't jam up typewriters by typing too fast. It only remains there by convention.
I would imagine that ergonomic musicologists (that must exist) would have some interesting things to say about the marriage of player, instrument, and computer. But at the end of the day if you can express yourself with what you've got then who cares!
That said, if I had the cash I would definitely pick one up. It's just not even in my top ten of items in its price range.
I think of it sort of like the harmonic table keyboard. If you become virtuosic with it, you can play things that no other instrument can play. But do you want to be married to a device that occupies such a niche role?
Hmm, you just gave the definition of any musical instrument. That answer is the same as why anyone would pick a sax over a violon or a cello or a guitar or drums ... they're instruments and people play the ones they feel most emotional and expressive with. Obviously you have to learn the technique that is proper to a particular musical instrument.
Hmm, you just gave the definition of any musical instrument. That answer is the same as why anyone would pick a sax over a violon or a cello or a guitar or drums ... they're instruments and people play the ones they feel most emotional and expressive with. Obviously you have to learn the technique that is proper to a particular musical instrument.
Well if you are making electronic music and using your "instrument" as a midi controller, then things get a bit more complicated than that.
Since you are no longer forced to choose an interface device based on timbre, you have to consider other elements. The eigenharp has a ton of great features. The only reason that I wouldn't want one is because you are reliant on a computer to make it work and you have to bring it everywhere with you if you want to make music on it. Most places where music is made have something resembling a keyboard, but most do not have an eigenharp.
Why would someone choose a midi wind instrument over a keyboard?
Probably because they already know how to play a wind instrument or they like something about the type of expressiveness associated with a wind instrument.
But since they can play any sound that they like with it, many people seem to choose the control surface that allows them to cover the largest portion of the sonic spectrum at once, which has historically been the keyboard).
There are SO many more keyboards than other types of midi controllers that I wonder if your argument isn't just for the sake of being contrary?
I'm a drummer by trade. But I'm learning keyboard so that I can write songs. It's always been frustrating to me to hear music in my head and not express it.
When I was first thinking about what tonal instrument to learn I looked seriously at alternate formats (like the harmonic table keyboard and the iPad as an instrument) and just decided that learning the keyboard would simplify things for me. It's also great for learning theory and communicating musical ideas to other musicians.
So the answer is not the same as why sax vs drums vs violin vs guitar or anything else, at least not for me.
Like I said, I think the Eigenharp is really cool. I just can't justify buying one since I still don't have a poly-analog or a really nice mic.
Location: Somewhere between France and Absurdistan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbevin
@spaceman, this video shows some of the attention of detail that's going into Eigenharp's construction, it explains how the keys were made and designed:
Thanks. I can see some serious engineering going on there...
By the way , i've seen a couple of your Eigenharp videos on Youtube ( both tutorials and performances ) and they're excellent
@ Grovestand : I understand your point , but i don't find the layout of the keys on the Eigens so outlandish that it would require a completely different mental process, especially when you can remap the scales and all that thru software... It's the additional 3D axis of the keys is probably where most of the adjustment will be ( but then again, so is trying to use pedals or the XY pad on a Novation , while playing the keyboard )
I tried to play a saxophone once , now that was a weird instrument in terms of keys , haha ...
Honestly, what worries me most in terms of the "niche" aspect of the Eigens, is that you almost never see them discussed anywhere on the net, and very few videos of users, apart from the official Eigenlabs videos ( and gsbevin's ones ) on youtube , wich lead me to think that they're selling very few of these things....
And if the company goes bust , that could be a big problem, you're left with an expensive instrument that's very dependent on never-ending software updates to catch up with the never-ending Mac/PC OS updates, unlike a violin or a regular hardware synth....
( Of course, one can hope that they would release the software as open-source , if something bad happens..)
Thanks. I can see some serious engineering going on there...
By the way , i've seen a couple of your Eigenharp videos on Youtube ( both tutorials and performances ) and they're excellent
@ Grovestand : I understand your point , but i don't find the layout of the keys on the Eigens so outlandish that it would require a completely different mental process, especially when you can remap the scales and all that thru software... It's the additional 3D axis of the keys is probably where most of the adjustment will be ( but then again, so is trying to use pedals or the XY pad on a Novation , while playing the keyboard )
I tried to play a saxophone once , now that was a weird instrument in terms of keys , haha ...
Honestly, what worries me most in terms of the "niche" aspect of the Eigens, is that you almost never see them discussed anywhere on the net, and very few videos of users, apart from the official Eigenlabs videos ( and gsbevin's ones ) on youtube , wich lead me to think that they're selling very few of these things....
And if the company goes bust , that could be a big problem, you're left with an expensive instrument that's very dependent on never-ending software updates to catch up with the never-ending Mac/PC OS updates, unlike a violin or a regular hardware synth....
( Of course, one can hope that they would release the software as open-source , if something bad happens..)
Dude, definitely get it. You will love it.
My advice would be to either buy it from a retailer with a favorable return policy like B&HPhoto (don't know about Europe... sorry). or ebay.
If you buy it on ebay slightly used you can probably sell it for what you paid for it in case you don't like it. I would probably start with the pico to make sure that I was really into it before buying one, but I look forward to hearing what you think. The one time I saw it live it was very convincing at funk guitar stabs.
Which lead me to think that they're selling very few of these things....
And if the company goes bust , that could be a big problem, you're left with an expensive instrument that's very dependent on never-ending software updates to catch up with the never-ending Mac/PC OS updates, unlike a violin or a regular hardware synth....
( Of course, one can hope that they would release the software as open-source , if something bad happens..)
I can tell you that we've sold thousands of instruments, there's only just a fraction that puts videos on YouTube. There are quite a few people gigging with it, some even in very high profile formations and big tours.
As it turns out, the software has been open-sourced more than a year and a half ago, just for this very reason, we don't think it's morally sound to possibly hold users' instruments hostage if the worst might come to happen: https://github.com/Eigenlabs/EigenD
We even hosted a developer's conference early this year with a great number of participants.
We've also invested quite a bit in bootstrapping a developer community with resources that are just geared towards them: Eigenlabs Developers Wiki
Finally, we also have a long-term plan on getting EigenD to fully work on Linux and possibly embedded devices. It's mostly there but still requires an effort on the USB driver. There's no ETA for that yet though.
So the answer is not the same as why sax vs drums vs violin vs guitar or anything else, at least not for me.
I think that really summarises it: not for you. Me personally, when I bought my first Eigenharp (the Pico) I felt that finally the world opened up and that I was able to make music in a way that I've been looking for since I was a teenager. I'm a singer, guitarist and pianist with formal training and the Eigenharp gave me a way of expressing myself electronically that nothing has ever provided me with. So for me, it is the same as selecting the Eigenharp over piano or guitar. When I go back to my guitar now, even though I've been playing it for 25 years, I feel frustrated.
If you want the software to be 'embedded', just put it on a cheap windows box or a hackintosh and never touch it. It'll be like a hardware synth, with all the same restrictions if that's what you want, but with the expressivity and playing feel of the Eigenharp. I built a rack-mount machine just for that and never use it for anything else. It's like any other rack gear that I own, it just happens to power my Eigenharp and my electric guitar sounds.
I think that really summarises it: not for you. Me personally, when I bought my first Eigenharp (the Pico) I felt that finally the world opened up and that I was able to make music in a way that I've been looking for since I was a teenager.
I would like to demo it. If I felt that way after playing it, I assume that I would have to buy one.
- How do you feel in general about the construction build ( the structure, the keys, ..) ? Would you feel confident travelling with it for a gig , for example ?
Any reliability issues so far ?
It is very well built. I'd have no hesitation travelling with it. The Tau should be even less of a worry as it is mainly metal.
My Alpha is nearly 3 years old an looks like new (if you ignore my grimy fingerprints ehe)
I would like to demo it. If I felt that way after playing it, I assume that I would have to buy one.
That's the main problem indeed. Eigenlabs now has a rental plan where you can try it out at reduced cost and either send it back or buy it with the rental cost deducted. We've worked very hard at trying to get it in retailers, but with the current economic climate it's just not possible. We only found a few of them, but B&H in New York is one, maybe you can give them a call.
For full disclosure (in case that wasn't clear yet), I'm a software developer at Eigenlabs, but only joined the company after I bought a Pico and an Alpha myself and had been playing the Alpha for a few months.
Hi GearLutzers,
being in BGevin's Eigenharp circle I heard about this thread when he meantioned that there is talk about Eigenharps going on here, so hello everybody!
I started with a Tau more than a year ago and recently got me a refurbished Alpha - not that I would have run into limits with the Tau, the opportunity was just so enticing.
Being a Windows 7 (64 bit) user, I belong to a minority in the Eigenharp community. No reason to complain though, version 2.x runs really stable on this OS for quite some time now. The last crash (that was not due to an amok running 3rd party plugin) is quite some time in the past for me.
Put some time into building my custom configuration, now I am back to practising technique and learning pieces mostly. (I am not a professional musician, for me it's a hobby for evening hours - for my own enjoyment. So I go forward in little steps - the direction definitely feels like being forward though )
Eigenharps are perhaps a little bit like e-guitars - there is quite some room to find "your" configuration and sound. A standard setup exists, so you can just plug things together and start playing - but I know many from the community who have fun with experiments and work with really customized setups that are totally different in many ways.
Learning the Eigenharp is a challenge - you have the polyphony of a keyboard combined with per key phrase shaping of a (or better - several) bowed instruments.
The instrument is out in the wild for a little over 2 years now. Some people already went some remarkable steps down the road to "getting it", I haven't heard from anybody mentioning he even remotely "mastered" the instrument yet though - if there is one, he/she would have to be in prodigy-realm, the learning curve doesn't differ too much from other instruments like a piano or a violin - and there 2 years are - well, a good start.
So many interesting things and "virtuous greatness" can be expected in the next 10 years or so, we'll see.
Perhaps the learning curve is more on the piano than on the violin side, because you can configure the Eigenharp in a way that you can't produce too many "ugly" notes (e.g. by disabling some of the three per key axis, so you don't have too many pitch and timbre modifications in the first steps) and select an easy, diatonic scale. (Yes, you can configure the keys to scales mapping, e.g. like an "all white keys" setup on a piano, a fully chromatic setup or even microtonic scales - with increasing degrees of freedom and difficulty).
So you can start with playing nice, easy pieces and gradually increase difficulty if you feel the desire to do so until only the sky is the limit - much like with a piano.
Another eigenharp player here. I got in early and bought a pico when it was launched, since it was sufficiently cheap, and looked too interesting to miss. I'm glad I did! Two years later, having played it quite a bit, been amazed by the build quality, and seen the Eigenlabs guys deliver on their software promises (often later than anticipated, but they got there in the end, and delivered on their crucial promise to open source the bulk of the software), I treated myself to an alpha. I'm still learning how to play it, and suspect I will for many years to come :-)
The build quality of all of the instruments is amazing. I attended the developers conf earlier this year and the level of thought, vision and passion that has gone into the design is remarkable. When I bought my alpha I travelled to London (overseas flight) since well when you spend that kind of money you want to know what you're getting. The guy I met was one of the Eigenlabs sales guys, and he's trucked his alpha around the world as checked luggage. Ok, his Hiscox case got a little beat up, but no issues with the instrument.
The software has come a long way since the early days. Comments from the player community are listened to, and the nice thing about the licensing model is that you get early access to the releases, and get to provide comments early and thus help shape the development. With the 2.0 release, we've seen huge leaps in stability, along with a number of new features, a prototype OSC agent, a "fingerer" allowing it to be played like a keyed wind instrument, a "strummer" allowing it to be played like a guitar, and crucially, Workbench, a tool for users who want to make extensive customisation of their setups.
As has been said by others, this is a real instrument, demanding of the same effort in learning it. But with effort comes an amazing interface, and a great level of control.
If you're going to jump in, try the Eigenlabs forums and see if you can find a player near you. They'll explain it's nuances better than most sales-people. Failing that, the rental program offered by Eigenlabs is the next best thing.
I play a Tau and Pico. They are really the most interesting instruments I've ever played.
I've used both W7 and MacOS versions of the software. It's quite stable, feature complete and fully customizable. Even so, developers are busy on an update.
Do your due diligence. It may not be for you. But you may find as I have that the Eigenharp is an extremely flexible and expressive instrument.
Before anyone makes a remark about the messages from three new accounts, most Eigenharp users that are active online actually meet on Google+ and we have regular hangouts. I mentioned this thread to my Eigenharp G+ circle, assuming that most people would have a GearSlutz account. In case you might doubt the legitimity of these responses, feel free to get in touch on G+, a simple search for Eigenharp will get you in touch with many active players.
Hi All,
Another Eigenharpist who is more than happy to answer any questions.
A bit of background.
I'm a Jazz and Classically trained saxophonist, who studied Music Technology at Uni. After finishing my degree, I have been working in indie film sound (Location, post, composition etc.), a small record label and most recently focusing on getting back into playing music live.
I found out about the Eigenharp while I was researching building a midi wind controller to play the Meeblip synth that I'd just made. After I got a working prototype working, I purchased a Pico, and haven't looked back. There was a point probably 2 weeks in, when the keys were starting to get under my fingers, where I knew that I would very easily still be playing it 10+ years down the track. It fitted so well. It has also given me an etrance to synths having a controller that isn't a keyboard.
I have found limitations with the pico, such as the range when using a chromatic scale, but the recent addition of the finger has changed that, and little things like the internal looping being tied to a metronome, but I've taken to using Ableton as my music Director, so I find that I don't have a need for that anymore. There are ways of doing this now, I just haven't looked into them.
I also now have an Alpha on order, but I'm not sure when it will be arriving. If you are interested, I would certainly suggest getting a pico. I have mics that cost more, as did my sub, and every other professional instrument that I own.
The Eigenharps ship with setups that can just spit out MIDI or OSC, no AU/VST hosting required if you don't want. There's even someone writing Max components that are driven by OSC directly from the Eigenharp software, if that's your thing: Max for Eigenharp | Using Max/MSP to control the Eigenharp
Oh really? That does change things... though I don't think I'll be lining up for one any time soon. Wife's got a bun in the oven and I think the Kemper Profiling Amp was my last big purchase in a while. Maybe I'll get little Jr. a Pico at some point.
Still that's the other barrier: Price. I wonder why these things can never seem to be made for less than $1,000 USD and not seem like a toy? Even the Tau at $3k just bowls me over.
Oh really? That does change things... though I don't think I'll be lining up for one any time soon. Wife's got a bun in the oven and I think the Kemper Profiling Amp was my last big purchase in a while. Maybe I'll get little Jr. a Pico at some point.
Still that's the other barrier: Price. I wonder why these things can never seem to be made for less than $1,000 USD and not seem like a toy? Even the Tau at $3k just bowls me over.
Since it really is expensive to build custom-designed things well if they're not in huge quantities. The margins are really extremely low, it's all mostly going to component costs, tooling, approvals and labour.
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) , is it still possible to get some really expressive lead lines with it ( controlling AU/VST softsynths , or maybe a CV controlled analog synth ) ?
The keybeds feel great, the combo of aftertouch and xy pad give me a lot of expressive control and I can play it while I still have a guitar strapped to me. 
ehe)
)
