CLOCK! Why INNERCLOCK when EXPERT SLEEPERS?

[Reptil]

check the compatibillity of the audio soundcard at the Expert Sleepers website. Not all interfaces are compatible (DC vs. AC.) and most normal converters only manage +5V when run unbalanced.

what are you comparing? the ES-4 to the Innerclock Sync Gen IILS?
with both modules you'll need a eurorack, so that's a bit different than the standalone Sync Gen IIPro and IILE.

Then, to add to the chaos of stable clockers , there's also the SND ACME-4.
which has a "shift" function, like the the Innerclock Sync Shift mk2 and mk3.

[Morechips]

Reptil, check this thread on muffwigglers -

Muff's Modules & More :: View topic - Better circuit choices for Silent Way AC Encoder

So given that even a non DC coupled soundcard output can be used to output CV/trigs etc and 5V is easily enough to clock with I can't understand what there is to put Innerclock at an advantage. Both developers claim sample accurate timing events.

[Reptil]

Ah yes, if you DC couple the i/o it will work. That's extra work, and some parts (but the cheapest option if you're using a stock non-DC coupled soundcard)

If you want ONE simple clock on one of your soundcard outputs, then yeah sure, do it.

But... there's a catch. Any soundcard output used, will not be available for audio output. And that's the neat thing about this whole clocking business. You have audio running in sample accurate sync with clock (midi or analogue) So that's what you pay for: extra CV Gate Clock on top of the audio.

Any SPDIF or Toslink ADAT out that's used for an ES-4 or ES-3, will not be available for regular duties. So if that's already in use on your soundcard, or doesn't exist on it, you'd go to the Innerclock: grab one audio out and have a whole range of synced clocks. If you have plenty of outputs on your soundcard then an ES-1 might do. Or what if you want a hardware clock shift (SND ACME-4 or an extra SyncShift) Or a clock distributer/divider/multiplier (SyncGen PRO and LS). You'd have to buy an 4ms RCD or SCM or something simular for that extra function if you go with the Silentway&cable adapter way.

So you pay for extra functionality. They all have something neat.

[kpsiegel]

I use the InnerClock Systems Sync-Gen Pro II. I can only comment on my experience and reasons for buying it since I have not used the Expert Sleepers stuff.

First off, I LOVE the Sync-Gen. It was trivial to install and works with no issues at all and I get absolutely rock clock midi and din/sync clock. It takes 2 (not 1) audio outs from your sound card or audio interface. One is used for sending clock pulses and the other for transport control. I have two of the 8 audio outs on my Roland OctaCapture dedicated to it.

It integrates into the DAW (Sonar X2 for me) as a synth module VST so that it can take tempo info including tempo changes from the DAW. The other thing that is nice is that I can program all sorts of changes to outbound clocking if I want on a pattern basis if I want. I mostly use it just for solid clocking though. The ability to do this completely hassle free is absolutely HUGE for me. I have wasted WAY too much time in the past trying to get workable clocking schemes and it was frustrating. This is not a cheap solution but it eliminated totally a real time-waster and that is worth a lot to me.

I have two of the midi outs of the Sync-Gen feeding midi in ports of my two MOTU MidiExpress 128 XT USB midi patchbays. This gets uniform clock to all my synths. I have two of the other midi ports dedicated to sending clock out to two separate effects chains so that tempo based effects work properly. I am reserving one port for an eventual midi patchbay addition.

I used to use an MSQ-100 to take midi clock and turn it into din/sync pulses but that thing is just not reliable. I now have the din/sync ports of the SyncGen hooked directly to my 808 and 606. Absolutely perfect and also good to have the integrated transport controls. Prior to getting the Sync-Gen I had set up my MPC-5000 as a clock master using two of the midi ports into the midi patchbays. I had the DAW set up as a slave. Clocking was way more solid but it eliminated any ability to track tempo changes in the DAW which was unworkable in the long run.

When I tried using the DAW for clock mastering through USB down to my MOTU midi patchbays I would see on the tempo displays of my effects pedals clock jumping around +/- 2 bpm and it was noticeable and audible. Now I see no jumps at all and they can display to 0.1 bpm.

The only issue I have had with the Sync-Gen was pure user error. You have to remember that you can't mute the output ports of the VST or you get no clock pulses. Sometimes easy to forget if you are on your DAW and want to solo some synth parts and all of a sudden that arpeggio doesn't sound right cause you have no clock out. Since the Sync-Gen has great visual indicators the problem is immediately obvious.

I will also add that David at InnerClock is very responsive if you have any questions.

[Morechips]

@Reptil
So its a minimum of 2 outputs on the soundcard whatever way I go. I was thinking of perhaps dedicating 4 outputs on my card for sync duties, 2 for the Dinsync out and 2 separate trigger/analogue clock outs. But now I am starting to consider the pro's for purchasing some dedicated hardware outs like the ES4 and an expander! all those extra outs from one spdif out! I am increasingly amazed at what that guy has pulled off since he started experimenting with the dedicated hardware outs.

@kpsiegel
Thanks for your detailed reply. I hadn't realized the extra functionality provided by the software on offer from Innerclock, if I had a bunch of hardware sequencers that I needed to sync via midi clock the sync gen pro II would be very tempting (even at the price), as it is I need only 1 midi clock out. I also need maximum 2 dinsync outs. About David, yeah he seems a very friendly and helpful guy, no doubt about the solidity of customer support and his products.

I definitely lean towards Expert Sleepers, but it would be great to hear from someone who is employing ES and Silent Way for clocking duties not just the synth control stuff. It is well documented how good Innerclock is for clocking, I have heard only good reports!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Morechips

I definitely lean towards Expert Sleepers, but it would be great to hear from someone who is employing ES and Silent Way for clocking duties not just the synth control stuff. It is well documented how good Innerclock is for clocking, I have heard only good reports!

That would be me.
The simple reason is because I've found Expert Sleepers does not produce consistent results.
About a year ago I bought an ES4 (Euro module). Setting up the midi (cv and gate) was pretty painless. I had it working very well for months.
I never once got the clocking to work properly though, despite repeated attempts. In fact I had to give up using my analog sequencers. They would stutter, drop out for a fraction of a second. Start slightly after my track, jump steps, or speed up, then slow down.
It just seemed clunky and difficult to master.
As soon as the Sync Gen II came out I bought one.
From day one it's clocked my sequencers perfectly. Absolutely perfect timing, no tech issues, no miniscule delay when syncing to my track.
Now (sigh) I'm having issues with midi (cv and gate) from my ES4.
It wont play in tune, or it wont send pitch change at all. I don't know what I've done, maybe I'm sending it too loud a level of audio.
I find the ES software is trying to do too many things, and that in part makes it complicated for me to trouble shoot.
If only ES had one simple midi software package, no lfo's, no three envelope, no pitch offsets etc....
I plugged up my Sync Gen module in 5 seconds, and it's worked perfectly ever since.
To conclude, I can't believe how both these products are so much better than midi. I would never go back to midi.
The Innerclock module has been simple and effective.
The ES set up has been confusing and a little painful from the start.
I would love to have set my ES4 on day one and never have had to tinker with it again, but sadly that's not the case.
In a straight shootout over clocking, I would recommend the Innerclock over ES every day of the week.
I would recommend ES over midi too. But if someone made a midi module like the ES4 without the glitches and inconsistency, I would also replace my ES4 in a heartbeat.

[JSt0rm]

The sync gen II was one of those eyebrow raising moments for me in the studio. LoL.

Also you can get a pulse out of the sync gen that is divisions (controlled via footswitch) of the clock. Wonderful for syncing lfo's to your daw.

[jessem]

The Sync Gen is pretty easy to get going, and once it's setup it just works. It does require two audio outputs as well though. If you have a few machines it may make sense to just get the Sync Gen rather than dealing with hacking cables and such. Sync Gen can also work off an audio file, so the plugin is not required.

There's also rv0, which is free. rv0 | mixed media & technology

I have an ES-3 for my modular but I have not used it to clock any midi/din gear. It works really well with the modular. The new version has a much easier to use interface. I didn't like version 1.X that much.

[Morechips]

@Chrisso

I noticed in another thread you mentioning having both systems so was hoping for your input! Thanks for your detailed reply.

Your experience with the ES hardware/software doesn't sound good at all. <removed by moderator - no fishing please!>- the stability of clocking with Silent Way.

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by jessem

The Sync Gen is pretty easy to get going, and once it's setup it just works. It does require two audio outputs as well though. If you have a few machines it may make sense to just get the Sync Gen rather than dealing with hacking cables and such. Sync Gen can also work off an audio file, so the plugin is not required.

There's also rv0, which is free. rv0 | mixed media & technology

I have an ES-3 for my modular but I have not used it to clock any midi/din gear. It works really well with the modular. The new version has a much easier to use interface. I didn't like version 1.X that much.

Have you tried using the Silent Way LFO or the trigger generator to clock any of your modular gear?....I am presuming you have some sort of hardware step sequencer in your setup somewhere?

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

The sync gen II was one of those eyebrow raising moments for me in the studio. LoL.

Also you can get a pulse out of the sync gen that is divisions (controlled via footswitch) of the clock. Wonderful for syncing lfo's to your daw.

If I go the Innerclock route I expect a big smile moment when I start tracking into the DAW, but if I can achieve the same result for less $$

LFO sync! you betcha! but I wouldn't dedicate that one pulse clock out for an LFO, you know you should be able to re-trigger your LFO's with a sharp attack audio signal like a hat sample...thats what I do with my Kraftzwerg's LFO at the moment...more rhythmic variations. If I end up going the Innerclock route that pulse clock out will drive my Europa, which in turn will clock a few other devices.

[bil_g]

I'm someone who went the ES route. I use it to control the majority of my setup, be it analog or midi. I haven't used it for Din, but I have used it for analog and midi clocking. I've not had any of the issues that Chrisso has experienced. Silent Way has been working great for me for almost 2 years. Rock solid and sample accurate. I currently use 2 ES-3s, an ES-4 with 2 Gate Expanders, and the headphone out on my RME Fireface 400. I used to use a pair of ES-1s before the ES-3 came out.

There is more of a learning curve involved with Silent Way. The ES-4 plug-in, in particular, can take some time to wrap your head around. It's a bit more complex than the other SW plug-ins. Innerclock definitely seems more plug and play for basic clocking. I went the ES route mainly because I needed more than just clocking. I needed a lot of flexibility.

From my experience, I would recommend SW for clocking and more.

[JSt0rm]

Originally Posted by Morechips

If I go the Innerclock route I expect a big smile moment when I start tracking into the DAW, but if I can achieve the same result for less $$

LFO sync! you betcha! but I wouldn't dedicate that one pulse clock out for an LFO, you know you should be able to re-trigger your LFO's with a sharp attack audio signal like a hat sample...thats what I do with my Kraftzwerg's LFO at the moment...more rhythmic variations. If I end up going the Innerclock route that pulse clock out will drive my Europa, which in turn will clock a few other devices.

If you have any clock division modules they should be able to run off the actual clock but the pulse will give you intervals of 1 1/2 1/2T 1/4 1/4T 1/8 1/8T 1/16. not bad and you can of course mult that pulse and send it to as much stuff as you desire.

Also start your tracks at bar 0 and hit play and be amazed as all of your stuff starts instantly in time.

[chrisso]

Yes, the Innerclock has outputs for all divisions, from one bar to 32'nds, including triplets.
I admit there are probably some user error elements to my issues with ES, but actually a lot of people were having problems trying to accurately clock sequencers at the same time I was.
I'm in the business of making music, and I'm not particularly technical. So I value the fact I've had the Innerclock set up working perfectly from the first time i installed it, and have never had to trouble shoot any aspect of it's operation.
I actually wish Innerclock offered a midi modulle.

[kpsiegel]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Yes, the Innerclock has outputs for all divisions, from one bar to 32'nds, including triplets.
I admit there are probably some user error elements to my issues with ES, but actually a lot of people were having problems trying to accurately clock sequencers at the same time I was.
I'm in the business of making music, and I'm not particularly technical. So I value the fact I've had the Innerclock set up working perfectly from the first time i installed it, and have never had to trouble shoot any aspect of it's operation.
I actually wish Innerclock offered a midi modulle.

Amen to that! I am so happy that I never have to think about clocking anymore. It is absolutely worth every penny to be able to just focus on making music and not debugging that nonsense. I think people should really value their time more and equipment that just works is a godsend. Nothing can kill your creativity like chasing down mystery clocking problems. My only regret is that I waited as long as I did before I ended up buying the Sync-Gen.

[supersuper]

Support for the silent way products is inconsistent. it is a one man show who is enthusiastic and genuinely wants to assist his customers but the documentation is really not fleshed out and accessible to everyone.

Don't know about the other product discussed.

[innerclock]

Thanks for all the positive posts people - we've been relocating the Innerclock studio/office/factory/lab all month so my forum/web input has been a little thin I have to admit - you guys tell the story better that I do anyway!!! If I start banging on about what we do and how good it works it skates a little too close to hard sell which is never a good thing anyway.

I update the Innerclock web User Testimonials page whenever I get an unsolicited customer email and they really do tell the story from a real-world, real customer perspective.

Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

The ICS Blog goes into a bit more detail if you are keen:-

Innerclock Systems – Stay In Sync | Time Is The Musicians' Canvas

And please just email me if you have any specific questions about our products or about syncing 3rd party hardware - we have most items in the lab for testing and we've been around long enough that we can beg and borrow almost anything we don't own

david@innerclocksystems.com

Best regards - David
Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

[chrisso]

I fully applaud ES for freeing me from traditional midi.
I dunno, I think maybe he's trying to build in too many features, trying to satisfy too many customer suggestions.
The Innerclock IILS basically does one thing, simply and perfectly.
Still, whenever I see a question about midi to cv modules or converters, I always recommend ES, as (when it works for me) it's night and day better than midi.

[innerclock]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I fully applaud ES for freeing me from traditional midi.
I dunno, I think maybe he's trying to build in too many features, trying to satisfy too many customer suggestions.
The Innerclock IILS basically does one thing, simply and perfectly.
Still, whenever I see a question about midi to cv modules or converters, I always recommend ES, as (when it works for me) it's night and day better than midi.

Likewise Chrisso - and while I can't speak for the ES system in general I can say that when we set out to develop the Sync-Gen II system one of the guiding principles was absolute simplicity. We wanted the system to be invisible (if you wish it to be) - no special sound cards, no DIY cables, install the software and hit play and get on with making music. No learning curve. Accurate tempo sync across multiple devices and systems is one of those critical things in music making that can ruin all creativity on a session. The less time you need to trouble shoot or fault find the better. Aside from providing sample accurate and grid-locked tempo sync - what we mainly set out to achieve was making it happen so you almost don't even know it's there

[expertsleepers]

I guess I better jump in here too (this is Os of Expert Sleepers).

I don't have much to add, except to say that I am fanatical about customer support - if it comes in on the right channels. I don't visit Gearslutz much - <removed by moderator - no fishing please?>

As David says, this is not the place for a hard sell. I'm just glad people are starting to recognise the importance of accurate clocking/MIDI. The fact that there are now two players in the market providing that only strengthens the case for it.

[expertsleepers]

And this is why I don't visit GS much. Apparently a manufacturer isn't allowed to mention his support forums here.

[MattH]

Deleted a link to his support forums? Are you serious? How exactly was that 'fishing'?

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by Morechips

Your experience with the ES hardware/software doesn't sound good at all. <removed by moderator - no fishing please!>- the stability of clocking with Silent Way.

@Reptil

I don't know what fishing is to be honest with you and I can't imagine in what way saying 'I should go and post questions on another forum' could threaten GS!! But fair enough rules are rules and now I know.

Also in answer to this - WARNING: only specific links, no general linkage or recommendation to go elsewhere allowed, please see the rules? thanks!!

I only typed the name of the forum, certainly didn't recommend anyone else go there.

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by expertsleepers

And this is why I don't visit GS much. Apparently a manufacturer isn't allowed to mention his support forums here.

Doesn't seem like a great reason not to join in the discussion! your input is valued by at least one member here and probably a few more too.

[xanax]

all i can say is i'm head over heels with my recent Sync Shift purchase, it allows me to manually sync 2 devices with micro-tick precision but also opens up a world of ideas when shifting clocks against each other. i just need more ports to sync/shift more gear together.. i'd grab Sync Gen in a heart beat but i don't want to be tethered to a computer. i'm currently saving up for the ACME4, the bentley of these sync/shift/clock devices..

[chembros]

Hey Xanax, have you used the sync shift with the Tempest? I'm thinking about getting one so I'm not shifting notes around in my slaved Octatrack.

Just checked out the Acme4... Looks very nice but a little expensive IMO.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by expertsleepers

And this is why I don't visit GS much. Apparently a manufacturer isn't allowed to mention his support forums here.

suit yourself.

some explanation:
if you don't want to respond to people's questions here, than that's your choice. whatever you have to say, you can say it here, or link to a SPECIFIC thread or post, which is of course perfectly ok. fishing for another forum is not allowed. see #17 here.
you are allowed to link to whatever support forum or website, in your signature. there's good reason why this rule is in place. we're not about to grant special privileges to manufacturers while not allowing other users to do the same. a "fairness" principle. this, and other rules have been drawn up over the years to prevent misuse.

and yes, I would value your contributions here as well.

Originally Posted by Morechips

Reptil, check this thread on muffwigglers -

Muff's Modules & More :: View topic - Better circuit choices for Silent Way AC Encoder

Originally Posted by Morechips

@Reptil

I don't know what fishing is to be honest with you and I can't imagine in what way saying 'I should go and post questions on another forum' could threaten GS!! But fair enough rules are rules and now I know.

Also in answer to this - WARNING: only specific links, no general linkage or recommendation to go elsewhere allowed, please see the rules? thanks!!

I only typed the name of the forum, certainly didn't recommend anyone else go there.

no problem. the link in your post above is a specific link to a subject, that's ok.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by xanax

all i can say is i'm head over heels with my recent Sync Shift purchase, it allows me to manually sync 2 devices with micro-tick precision but also opens up a world of ideas when shifting clocks against each other. i just need more ports to sync/shift more gear together.. i'd grab Sync Gen in a heart beat but i don't want to be tethered to a computer. i'm currently saving up for the ACME4, the bentley of these sync/shift/clock devices..

yeh same here, it's great!
I got a Kawai MAV-5 midi patchbay for switching.
Also testing an old MOTU MTP AV for routing and merging midi (it's got memory so could be handy on stage), I'll post my experiences when I get to it.

[Morechips]

SND ACME4!!

I just read some of the manual and they really have tried to cover most posts with that one, great that it can work in standalone mode as well!

It seems that all these systems essentially use the same method to clock to the DAW ie. an audio pulse at the right volume level which is then converted to voltage and midi in the case of the ACME4 and Sync Gen.

I like the idea of a built/programmed for purpose circuit and CPU handling these sync duties, on the other hand if it can be handled equally well within a software environment and the essence of the clock is the same audio pulse information, then ES is at least for simple non midi clocking duties the best option (if one can afford the soundcard output real estate).