CLOCK! Why INNERCLOCK when EXPERT SLEEPERS?

[xanax]

Originally Posted by chembros

Hey Xanax, have you used the sync shift with the Tempest? I'm thinking about getting one so I'm not shifting notes around in my slaved Octatrack.

Yes i essentially got it to fix Tempest's start lag.. here's a video david made a little while ago: Sync-Shift MKIII Tempest MPC3K.mp4 - YouTube

[dubnspace]

alright, reading this thread has got me very interested in either the ES or Innerclock modules. I'm trying to understand how this all works exactly when I want to be able to send both MIDI clock and Midi Note info to my devices.. is this even possible or would i need to add a midi merge.. that would become to unmanageable. I see the Innerclock has standard midi out but the ES doesn't, how would I use the ES for sending midi clock to say my Kenton? Right now I'm sending midi clock out of Cubase through a Midex 8 to many devices, but all those devices are getting note info too. Help me figure this out, I just bought a TipTop HEK and an Oberkorn sequencer so anxious to get this all in my workflow..

[Morechips]

@dubnspace
TBH the best option for a simple midi clock out is probably going to be Innerclock, you will probably only need the basic option from them (can't remember the actual unit) which has 1 midi out, 1 dinsync out and an analogue clock/pulse output. I think your Oberkorn has an analogue clock input so best to use that clock input rather than midi clock.

Cheap option though is to buy Silent Way and if you have a compatible soundcard you can get analogue clock out very easily, midi clock requires dedicated hardware from ES.

Research!

[bil_g]

dubnspace,

If you want full midi output(notes, cc, clock, etc.), there are two ways to do this with ES hardware:

ES-3mk2 + ES-5

or

ES-4 + Gate Expander(ESX-8GT)

Once you choose which hardware, you can grab however many of these you want. They're easy to make, as well. I did and I am very novice with the soldering.

Each output on the Expanders(ES-5 or ESX-8GT) can be used as a midi output. So, that's 8 midi outs per Expander(or 4 dinsync outs - 1 dinsync requires 2 Expander outs). You can add 5 ESX-8GTs to an ES-4 or 6 ESX-8GTs to an ES-5. That's at least 40 midi outs. The routing is handled by the ES-4 and ES-5 Controller plug-ins.

One Expander could be used instead of the 8 outs on your Midex. Of course, this is just one thing you can do with the Expander outputs.

[chrisso]

The soundcard issue with ES is a little overhyped.
Previously I was using a Lynx Aurora which didn't support any of the standard ES formats. But after spending $30 on a few ready made cables and translator boxes, I was able to use my imac's headphone output (in digital audio mode) to power an ES4.
It was no real hassle and I was using the ES4 for tonal midi duties successfully and quickly.
I never got the sync aspect to work properly.
The Sync Gen stuff is really all about clocking.
If you are looking to programme your own melodic parts you need one of the ES modules. You have the option to use your ES module to clock-sync too, or buy an Innerclock device.
I've found the Innerclock device to be easier to use, more solid and more reliable, so I have both an ES4 and an Innerclock IILS.
If budget is an issue and you need to do both, then buy the ES product first and see if you can get it to do both (which apparently most people can).
If you only want rock solid clocking and sync, I would definitely recommend the Innerclock route first.

[dubnspace]

thanks guys. Yeah sounds like i'm going to at least get the ES-3+5 to get me started. I'lll be on the lookout out for an Innerlock Sync LE too.. hopefully find one on the used market..

[innerclock]

Hey all - I received a PM with some points that I thought might need some general clarification:-

PM: Having read your posts, looked thru your website. I would be interested in getting a Sync Gen II, but here is where your box fails...

1) Only 1 midi and 1 din-sync out, not good enough when you need to sync multiple midi and din-sync devices and i don't know if splitters will degrade the signal.

My Reply: Not sure which page on the site you were reading <removed by moderator>

Sync-Gen IIPRO has 5 x Midi Clock Ports, 5 Din Sync Ports, 1 x Trigger Out and 1 x Dedicated Reset Out.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New...0II%20Pro.html

The Sync-Gen IILS is a totally different product designed with modular synth users in mind - it provides single Midi Clock and Din Sync Outs for added convenience but it's prime focus is on generating multiple and simultaneous rhythmic trigger pulse outputs accurately locked to your DAWs Tempo/Quantize Grid.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New...%20Series.html

PM: You haven't tested your Sync-Gen II software on all DAWs, most of your tests have been done using Ableton which we all know has the shittiest midi clock output.

Have you tested it using Samplitude yet ? Samplitude allows you to use system timestamp as midi clock, i suspect higher end versions of Cubase allows that also.

My Reply: Software generated Midi Clock stability is not just a function of any specific DAW code - Midi Interface hardware design, bus connectivity and interface driver software are also factors. The number of possible DAW/Midi Interface combinations available to consumers make any introduced sync jitter causes difficult to identify and eliminate.

In direct contrast the Sync-Gen II System provides precision external tempo sync (with some significant features in the software that are unique) regardless of DAW or legacy Midi Interface and without any need for specific DC Coupled Audio Hardware or DIY Midi and Din Sync sockets. I'm downloading the trial install of Samplitude Pro X and I'll post a report shortly but I don't expect any nasty surprises.

True that most of the YouTube demo clips we post are performed on Live 8 for consistency and simplicity but we run and regularly test and provide support for Sync-Gen II here in the lab on Live, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, Nuendo, ProTools, Digital Performer and we have working test bench systems running Win XP, Vista, Win 7 and Snow Leopard, Lion and Mountain Lion for the OS-X platform.

Samplitude runs 3rd Party VSTs from memory so I would assume no problem running the current Sync-Gen II in that particular DAW platform. We have hundreds of professional studio users around the world running Sync-Gen II on almost every DAW available and major OS platform with no issue.

We regularly get additional feature requests and if inclusion is possible without compromising the systems core function and precision we rigorously beta test the changes and update once we are totally satisfied (Sync-Gen II is now at release Build 1.0.4 and we are beta testing 1.0.5 which adds Auto Sync Offset Calculation and Pro Tools Native AAX Support). Updates are free and will remain so. If individual customers have specific questions or operational issues about their own particular studio setup and 3rd party hardware they send us DAW project files and we test at our facility and report back as required.

PM: It is overpriced.

My Reply: We price as low as we possibly can so we can still eat and keep developing products of a high standard - we dropped the price on the Sync-Gen IIPRO about six months back to pass on our savings with the long running strength of the mighty $AUD. We design, build and develop in Australia to a very high standard in parts, software development, QC as well as providing peerless and personal (international phone calls included in many cases) technical support 24/7. Australian wages are relatively high and our currency remains strong and those things are unfortunately beyond our direct control. Many people struggle with sync issues in music production and finding a pain free solution is a very valuable thing. Why pay $2000 plus for a vintage TR-808 or an MPC-3000LE if you can't lock it up correctly? Our customers don't seem to have a problem with our pricing if you read the testimonials.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New...20Friends.html

PM: Not everyone has a sound card with multiple outs, meaning i would have to replace my sound card to just get a box that allows multiple ins/outs.

My Reply: Multioutput soundcards are relatively cheap these days.

PM: And get yourself a UK distributor.

My Reply: We already ship and supply exclusively through Schneiders Buero in Europe and Analogue Haven in the US because they have supported us 100% from day one and they believe in what we offer and trust what we do without question. We ship anywhere else on the planet direct to customers off our site from Sydney three times a week.
<removed by moderator>

[chrisso]

sigh

[Reptil]

all my Innerclocks, Expert Speepers and SND is quality: solid build, good functionality.
if it would be cheaper, but less good I would not buy it. so I'm happy with it, as it is.
FWTFIW

[innerclock]

Originally Posted by Reptil

all my Innerclocks, Expert Speepers and SND is quality: solid build, good functionality.
if it would be cheaper, but less good I would not buy it. so I'm happy with it, as it is.
FWTFIW

Someone kindly reminded me other day that their beloved Jupiter 8 was $6495 AUD back in 1982 which was just over the price for a then current new Commodore SL family sedan. I think the cheapest equivalent Holden now is $37,000. Synths and workstations haven't attracted the same degree of inflation thankfully. Price is always relative.

[spaceacademy]

Oops, totally picked up the thread starter wrong so original post deleted.
...........................................................................................


But just to say - innerclocks Syn Gen is ace - works 100% hassle free!
If you want sample accurate midi clock sync (and you should desire that)
the sync gen is a no brainer

[spaceacademy]

Originally Posted by chrisso

sigh

Why the sigh remark?
Is it aimed at innerclock, or the thread in general
Just curious

[frico]

Originally Posted by spaceacademy

Why the sigh remark?
Is it aimed at innerclock, or the thread in general
Just curious

Maybe he was picking up what struck me about that exchange: the singular lack of social skills (and weird entitled consumer vibe) on the part of whoever was asking the questions...

[innerclock]

Samplitude Pro X (12.0.0.59) running under Win7 with Sync-Gen II (VST):-

Samplitude Sync Gen IIPRO - YouTube

Regards - David
Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by frico

the singular lack of social skills (and weird entitled consumer vibe) on the part of whoever was asking the questions...

Bingo.

[JSt0rm]

I love this question:

"PM: Not everyone has a sound card with multiple outs, meaning i would have to replace my sound card to just get a box that allows multiple ins/outs."

AND?

[skanker]

Originally Posted by JSt0rm

I love this question:

"PM: Not everyone has a sound card with multiple outs, meaning i would have to replace my sound card to just get a box that allows multiple ins/outs."

AND?

This made me cringe too mate.

the guys produced an amazing product for us to use to help us work more efficiently and he has to deal with morons like that.

What a fool

[ionian]

That's the kind of customer you don't want buying your stuff. Every time they have a problem (self-inflicted, no doubt), you're going to be buried in emails about how your product sucks, you stole their money and you better give them some support, pronto or they're boycotting your company and posting on forums telling people not to buy it.

I would have just PM'ed him back that he's right about everything and Innerclock isn't for him.

Regards,
Frank

[Morechips]

@Innerclock

The last part of your strangely pushy customer's (potential customer) first question is of interest to me and I would imagine to the larger community.

Have you tested the the midi clock out of any or your units through a midi patchbay or splitter? or has anyone else tested/tried this?....I don't expect you to have tested with all midi patchbays!

Dinsync I have tested and it seems to remain solid.

[innerclock]

Originally Posted by Morechips

@Innerclock

The last part of your strangely pushy customer's (potential customer) first question is of interest to me and I would imagine to the larger community.

Have you tested the the midi clock out of any or your units through a midi patchbay or splitter? or has anyone else tested/tried this?....I don't expect you to have tested with all midi patchbays!

Dinsync I have tested and it seems to remain solid.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New...%20Litmus.html

Scroll down to 'Merge & Thru'

Regards -David

[kpsiegel]

Originally Posted by Morechips

@Innerclock

The last part of your strangely pushy customer's (potential customer) first question is of interest to me and I would imagine to the larger community.

Have you tested the the midi clock out of any or your units through a midi patchbay or splitter? or has anyone else tested/tried this?....I don't expect you to have tested with all midi patchbays!

Dinsync I have tested and it seems to remain solid.

I have my Sync-Gen Pro II feeding clock to two 8 port MOTU midi patchbays. I set the routing up so that port 2 on each of the patchbays where I have the Sync-Gen connected is distributed to every output port. Works fantastically well. I am probably going to get another patchbay soon and will use the spare midi out port on my Sync-Gen Pro to feed that just like the other ones.

[chrisso]

FWIW, I only use the mini-jack outs of my Sync-Gen IILS (Eurorack module).
I've on occasion split the signal through a basic Euro multiple and simultaneously clocked a sequencer, a delay unit and an ADSR, as a single synth patch - with perfect results.

[jessem]

Originally Posted by Morechips

Have you tried using the Silent Way LFO or the trigger generator to clock any of your modular gear?....I am presuming you have some sort of hardware step sequencer in your setup somewhere?

Yeah I run the es-3 to a 4ms RCD and usually go from there. I've used it with a dark time as well. Works great.

I just haven't used it for midi/din.

[clusterchord]

@Jessem:

so you're saying Dark Time is tight/accurate when being slaved to ES clock?


i am interested as ive bought the ES3+ES5 system few days ago, but always planned to add some analog step-sequencing to this system, for some immediate hands-on operation.

and i've narrowed down to Dark Time, or Dot Com 960. i like that DT is completely standalone, and its got quantizing on board and its small. but 960 is classic moog setup with 3x8.. decisions


thanks

[Johannes R.]

Anyone tried the SND ACME-4 ? Interested in this one particularly because it provides a shift function.

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by innerclock

Innerclock Systems - Precision Midi Clock Din Sync and Tempo Synchronisation Solutions

Scroll down to 'Merge & Thru'

Regards -

Thanks David, I have to say that I find your site very informative and helpful, I haven't personally come across another developer/manufacturer of electronic music equipment who is as thorough in presentation and as generous with his knowledge. All credit to you for that!

[elan]

How could be sample accurate a software CV/gate like silent way that sends clock using the interface outputs?

There will be the driver lag and the latency will change depending on the buffer size, plus you have the jittering of the USB or the firewire port (depending on how many tracks you record at time, and in general, how much bandwidth you are using and if you have hubs, other things connected that influences the USB/firewire bus)

Thanks

[Morechips]

Originally Posted by jessem

Yeah I run the es-3 to a 4ms RCD and usually go from there. I've used it with a dark time as well. Works great.

I just haven't used it for midi/din.

Cheers! those clock divider modules the RCD and the SCM look great!!

I hold you and many other GS members responsible for my increasing 'need' to go modular!!!!!!!!

[wxyz]

Happily using the Silent Way Step LFO as a clock with an Analogue Systems RS-200 Sequencer for several years. Also works with a Monotribe.

[Entrainer]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I fully applaud ES for freeing me from traditional midi.
I dunno, I think maybe he's trying to build in too many features, trying to satisfy too many customer suggestions.
The Innerclock IILS basically does one thing, simply and perfectly.
Still, whenever I see a question about midi to cv modules or converters, I always recommend ES, as (when it works for me) it's night and day better than midi.

Alyseum MS-812 (Eurorack)

Maybe try that one. I find the ES-3 to be better suited to LFO duties, long
sync'd LFOs. The calibration procedure is annoying. I'm going to give the
MS-812 a shot @ midi-cv conversion.

However, I have found the ES-3 to be a suitable and reliable source for
clocking analog sequencers as well as reseting with triggers. It's just
the calibration and tuning I have an issue with. It works, just a massive
PITA.