My EDM music is aimed for radio, so it's loud. On average the dynamic range is about 4.5-5 db.
What if i told you that radio plays the same level anyway? Not only that but it will sound worse too once it's turned down a bit to match other songs. You 're welcome.
"Dude, I love that warm analog tape sound we're getting today . . . What? You recorded it digitally? Oh, in that case, it sounds too glassy." - unknown
What if i told you that radio plays the same level anyway? Not only that but it will sound worse too once it's turned down a bit to match other songs. You 're welcome.
What if i told you that radio plays the same level anyway? Not only that but it will sound worse too once it's turned down a bit to match other songs. You 're welcome.
I know that radio stations level songs according to average RMS. That's why you can play 80s songs next to new releases without too much volume difference.
In fact I listen to commercial hit radio a lot and the average track from Rihanna, David Guetta, Tayo Cruz or Katy Perry sound fine - provided you like the genre. These songs have album levels close to 4-5db dynamic range. David Guetta - Little Bad Girl even tops 3.5db. However, you need to sculp your sounds, go for an agressive midrange for perceived loudness and really have good overall balances to make this work. Unfortunately there are also a lot of bad sounding mixes made by engineers/producers who don't know/hear what they are doing and/or push mastering engineers further than that the source material offers. Like it or not, Sandy Vee received a grammy for mixing Katy Perry's Fireworks and he mixes a lot of songs in this genre just as loud.
Personally I find it very exhausting to listen too long to this loud music. I grew up in the 80s with Thriller as the ultimate mixing benchmark. And I still love each and every song! But these days kids love the sound of loudness. Crazy maybe, but it's the new reality. Just like older people back in the 50s hated the sound of distorted guitars loved by the youth...
I'm just trying to adapt to a changed environment and hope that one day, if ever, radio stations (or iTunes or Spotify for that matter) will dictate the R128 loudness standard to not only advertizing but also music.
I know that radio stations level songs according to average RMS. That's why you can play 80s songs next to new releases without too much volume difference.
In fact I listen to commercial hit radio a lot and the average track from Rihanna, David Guetta, Tayo Cruz or Katy Perry sound fine - provided you like the genre. These songs have album levels close to 4-5db dynamic range. David Guetta - Little Bad Girl even tops 3.5db. However, you need to sculp your sounds, go for an agressive midrange for perceived loudness and really have good overall balances to make this work. Unfortunately there are also a lot of bad sounding mixes made by engineers/producers who don't know/hear what they are doing and/or push mastering engineers further than that the source material offers. Like it or not, Sandy Vee received a grammy for mixing Katy Perry's Fireworks and he mixes a lot of songs in this genre just as loud.
Personally I find it very exhausting to listen too long to this loud music. I grew up in the 80s with Thriller as the ultimate mixing benchmark. And I still love each and every song! But these days kids love the sound of loudness. Crazy maybe, but it's the new reality. Just like older people back in the 50s hated the sound of distorted guitars loved by the youth...
I'm just trying to adapt to a changed environment and hope that one day, if ever, radio stations (or iTunes or Spotify for that matter) will dictate the R128 loudness standard to not only advertizing but also music.
I must be an exception cause I fill in the younger gen bracket and hate loud masters... well, loud to an extent.
I do not want to match levels with guetta, but can most agree that -8 is very average? or shall I stay near -10? lol... I guess maybe Ill just do w/e I want. hahahaha
I do not want to match levels with guetta, but can most agree that -8 is very average? or shall I stay near -10? lol... I guess maybe Ill just do w/e I want. hahahaha
The DJ I work with has left some recent tech/house tracks on my disk.
Here's what the TT Dynamic Range Meter reads for a bunch of different tracks:
9db, 8db, 7db, 6.5db, 5,5db, 7db, 5.5db, 5.5db, 6db, 6.5db, 7db, 6.5db, 4.8db, 5.5db. Note that this is Dynamic Range. Not sure if that's the same as RMS.
Fortunately most are not that crazy loud as commercial radio dance tracks, but still on average louder than 8db dynamic range.
I can only say make it as loud as needed on a particular mix while using reference tracks in the same genre.
-10 RMS for regular play, -8 RMS for internet play. I prefer it unmastered at around -16 to -18 RMS.
And it sounds much better at reasonable levels!
Music that is mastered at reasonable levels will last longer. Once the hype novelty wears off, the tracks willl have to compete on quality, not novelty and max loudness.
E.g. listen to Underworld's Second Toughest in the Infants. Obviously hard to hear on Youtube, but if I remember correctly it's mastered at something really un-smashed like -18 or something. And you actually have to turn it up a bit, in comparison to all the newest tracks. Not at home now, so I can't check the CD track right now, but it's something like that.
Here's the thing: Compared to much similar music pounded to a stump, Second Toughest can be listened to and enjoyed over and over again. It simply doesn't create fatigue, despite being a rather intense mostly progressive house album.
I mean this literally, if you want your music to survive the first rush, do NOT kill it in the process, you will regret it.
If otoh you see electronic dance music as ephemera, something to use and throw out, please continue mastering at -6 or whatever ridiculous levels one might attempt. As a future album people wanna listen to over and over? Forget about it. Not at those levels. People will instinctively choose another album. They might not know the technical terms, but people hear the difference.
So, that's a very real choice imo.
It made me shudder for a sec., what a pity if Underworld had destroyed it, seriously, what a pity that would have been. Thx Underworld!
__________________
“This is the most beautyful place on Earth. There are many such places.” Edward Abbey Desert Solitaire
I know that radio stations level songs according to average RMS. That's why you can play 80s songs next to new releases without too much volume difference.
In fact I listen to commercial hit radio a lot and the average track from Rihanna, David Guetta, Tayo Cruz or Katy Perry sound fine - provided you like the genre. These songs have album levels close to 4-5db dynamic range. David Guetta - Little Bad Girl even tops 3.5db. However, you need to sculp your sounds, go for an agressive midrange for perceived loudness and really have good overall balances to make this work. Unfortunately there are also a lot of bad sounding mixes made by engineers/producers who don't know/hear what they are doing and/or push mastering engineers further than that the source material offers. Like it or not, Sandy Vee received a grammy for mixing Katy Perry's Fireworks and he mixes a lot of songs in this genre just as loud.
Personally I find it very exhausting to listen too long to this loud music. I grew up in the 80s with Thriller as the ultimate mixing benchmark. And I still love each and every song! But these days kids love the sound of loudness. Crazy maybe, but it's the new reality. Just like older people back in the 50s hated the sound of distorted guitars loved by the youth...
I'm just trying to adapt to a changed environment and hope that one day, if ever, radio stations (or iTunes or Spotify for that matter) will dictate the R128 loudness standard to not only advertizing but also music.
Wow that's too much! I guess we have different references, mine are close to -10 and so are my tracks and for downbeat -12 to -14.
I agree to make it work you must process it a lot once you reach these very high levels, once you get far from the equal loudness contour curves it stops sounding loud it's just noise, or mix at these levels from the beginning.
Wow that's too much! I guess we have different references, mine are close to -10 and so are my tracks and for downbeat -12 to -14.
I agree to make it work you must process it a lot once you reach these very high levels, once you get far from the equal loudness contour curves it stops sounding loud it's just noise, or mix at these levels from the beginning.
I really find it a challenge to make a mix in the pop dance genre as loud as the reference tracks, but still maintain punch and without causing distortion. Not easy, though.
Obviously if I find the track is not suited for this I won't go that loud and stay in the 6-7db range or even less loud.
Note that this is AFTER mastering. However, I always check if my unprocessed mixes keep sounding the same (only louder and with more density) with a limiter strapped on my 2 buss. If balances change, things start to distort or loose punch I'll go back to my mix or decide that I won't go that loud.
Then I'll print an unprocessed master and keep the processed mix as a reference for the ME.
I really find it a challenge to make a mix in the pop dance genre as loud as the reference tracks, but still maintain punch and without causing distortion. Not easy, though.
Obviously if I find the track is not suited for this I won't go that loud and stay in the 6-7db range or even less loud.
Note that this is AFTER mastering. However, I always check if my unprocessed mixes keep sounding the same (only louder and with more density) with a limiter strapped on my 2 buss. If balances change, things start to distort or loose punch I'll go back to my mix or decide that I won't go that loud.
Then I'll print an unprocessed master and keep the processed mix as a reference for the ME.
This takes spectral balance over time into consideration, and has been used extensively in broadcast. Hyper compressed tracks will always sound smaller as loudness normalisation is becoming increasingly more prevalent.
I've always found around -10RMS EBU (mix dependent) to sound good in clubs, hi-fi, radio and vinyl. Many people do not quote the EBU standard as this may not be implemented in their software, so the RMS quoted is in fact 3dB higher, so when they say -6 RMS it's actually -9 RMS on true metering. The Sequoia metering is always spot on. The ear is still the best judge when it comes to music, and level matching the mix to the processed audio is the only way to hear what damage is being done to the mix. When the mix starts to sound smaller level matched, that's when it's time to back off.
I know that radio stations level songs according to average RMS. That's why you can play 80s songs next to new releases without too much volume difference.
In fact I listen to commercial hit radio a lot and the average track from Rihanna, David Guetta, Tayo Cruz or Katy Perry sound fine - provided you like the genre. These songs have album levels close to 4-5db dynamic range. David Guetta - Little Bad Girl even tops 3.5db. However, you need to sculp your sounds, go for an agressive midrange for perceived loudness and really have good overall balances to make this work. Unfortunately there are also a lot of bad sounding mixes made by engineers/producers who don't know/hear what they are doing and/or push mastering engineers further than that the source material offers. Like it or not, Sandy Vee received a grammy for mixing Katy Perry's Fireworks and he mixes a lot of songs in this genre just as loud.
Personally I find it very exhausting to listen too long to this loud music. I grew up in the 80s with Thriller as the ultimate mixing benchmark. And I still love each and every song! But these days kids love the sound of loudness. Crazy maybe, but it's the new reality. Just like older people back in the 50s hated the sound of distorted guitars loved by the youth...
I'm just trying to adapt to a changed environment and hope that one day, if ever, radio stations (or iTunes or Spotify for that matter) will dictate the R128 loudness standard to not only advertizing but also music.
Just loaded Guetta - Little Bad Girl and it came to around 6.4 RMS (voxengo span).
BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about absolute RMS. Just listen to some commercial released reference files in the genre your working in, which sound good to your taste, and try to match the perceived loudness by ear.
Yea, just do what everyone else is doing, that would be most proper!
No dynamic range, distortion artifacts, music without breathing room, you name it, just do it and you'll be fine
This is my point, after comparing to most songs I would not want to push this hard, but I still want to be relevant in volume, maybe not as loud, but not so low its a turn off.
RMS is a measure of dynamic range so that's a little confusing considering the thread is about RMS.
Nitpicking aside, I'm sure most people realized from the low figures you were posting that you weren't referring to RMS.
My meter shows rms, preceived loudness and peak loudness... I was going by average rms, but now im looking into this preceived loudness meter... I am sure I will find a good common ground, thank you for all the comments.
New Reply 
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
