invert vol envelopes on JD800 / D50

[grumphh]

I once made the mistake of thinking that of course you can have a negative volume envelope.

Then i thought about it...

[getmethough]

Originally Posted by grumphh

I once made the mistake of thinking that of course you can have a negative volume envelope.

Then i thought about it...

Is that some sort of attempt at wit?

Back to the question....

You can invert the envelope It on quite a few of the other synths I own, including the Juno 106 which is far less technologically advanced that the two in question, so I figured its more than likely that the feature should be on the JD800 / D50

[grumphh]

Originally Posted by getmethough

Is that some sort of attempt at wit?

Back to the question....

You can invert the envelope It on quite a few of the other synths I own, including the Juno 106 which is far less technologically advanced that the two in question, so I figured its more than likely that the feature should be on the JD800 / D50

It is wit.

What does the signal do when you release a key in a normal VCA envelope?
It goes to zero.

Invert the envelope, and upon release the signal will go to max output.

Where it would stay until you press the next key...

Negative amp envelopes do not make sense in practical applications.

Negative filter envelopes make good sense.


Geddit?

[getmethough]

http://en.wikiaudio.org/ADSR_envelop..._ADSR_envelope

If u think inverting volume envelopes doesn't make sense in a practical application then you are thinking in a very narrow minded way

Could someone who has any experience with either synth let me know if it's possible..... instead of taking time out of their day to tell me that it's not practical

[grumphh]

Originally Posted by getmethough

ADSR envelope

If u think inverting volume envelopes doesn't make sense in a practical application then you are thinking in a very narrow minded way

Could someone who has any experience with either synth let me know if it's possible..... instead of taking time out of their day to tell me that it's not practical

Thank you for trolling me, i needed that lesson

[getmethough]

going in with that razor sharp wit again i see

if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated

thanks

[Futureman84]

I'm with grumph on this one..

Can the 106 invert it's VCA envelope amount? Really?

VCF amount - yea, that's pretty standard... But VCA would be rather odd.. Heaps of hung sounds until you press a key, then some of those hung sounds would stop..

[The Elf]

grumphh is absolutely correct. Inverted envelopes make sense for filters, pulse width, pitch... but not really for volume, unless you want a note droning when you're not pressing a key and disappearing when you do! You can certainly use inverted envelopes on both the JD-800 and D-50 synths, but not for volume.

[grumphh]

Originally Posted by getmethough

going in with that razor sharp wit again i see

if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated

thanks

If you are not trolling, there may be a misunderstanding.

On a one env synth. the envelope modulation you send to the filter can of course be inverted for more sounds.

But when you say "volume envelope" in a synth with several envelopes it makes no sense to invert the volume envelope - because you will have a separate filter envelope that can easily be inverted.

E.g. if you look at the pic in my sig you will see that the JP-4 cannot have its volume envelope inverted.
But the filter envelope has a switch for that purpose.

If i want the filter to follow the amp envelope inversely i have to set both envelopes to the same amounts - and then invert the filter envelope.

I would imagine that Roland follows the same logic in its digital synths.

[getmethough]

why is it such a problem that I want to invert a volume envelope lolol

that is exactly what I want, a note droning until i press a key, is that too far out for u guys?

I just looked on my 106 an actually the envelope on that is the filter envelope, but I was just using that as an example as the other 2 are rolands

the main synth I do this on is my microwave one and that deffo has the capabilities to invert the vol envelope

maybe they are 2 routes to the same answer that I may not have considered, but if so why didnt u just say instead of being a smart ass?

Im gonna start another thread called "everyone please tell me your opinions on why you think its not a good idea to invert a volume envelope" & you can all post in there

[getmethough]

i dont want to argue, I just wanna know if its possible, lol

[The Elf]

Originally Posted by getmethough

I just looked in the manual and I am indeed correct you can invert the volume envelope on the 106, then assign it to the filter if you want to using the ENV slider in the VCF section

Of course this is the case - this is inverting the *filter* envelope. The 106's single envelope can control volume, or filter cut-off, but the 106 does not allow you to invert the *volume* envelope.

You keep talking about the 'volume envelope' when what you mean is 'envelope' - hence the confusion. An envelope can control filter cut-off, pitch, volume, or other parameters. To invert the *volume envelope* makes little sense (to most players at least!), but to invert an *envelope* controlling other parameters does make sense.

Originally Posted by getmethough

so none of you guys have any idea what you are talking about

Originally Posted by getmethough

so could someone who does know what they are talking about and actually owns or has used a D50 or JD800 let me know if they think its possible

You can invert the envelopes on both the JD-800 and D-50 (I know, I have a JD-800 and a D-550!), but NOT for the *volume* - only the envelope's control of such as the filter/pitch, etc.

Originally Posted by getmethough

thank you

You're welcome!

[getmethough]

Finally we got there

Thanks

[Dave Peck]

Keep in mind that inverting a volume envelope on a polyphonic synth will not just give you "a droning note until you press a key", it would give you a big dissonant cluster of ALL of the voices in the synth droning on whatever note they happened to have played last, and only one of these multiple voices would drop to zero volume when you pressed a key while all the others would just continue to drone.

It's just not something that would have a practical use for most music, so few polysynths have included this capability. The Oberheim Xpander and Matrix-12 are among the few polysynths that do allow you to do this.

[bluegreengold]

Originally Posted by grumphh

I once made the mistake of thinking that of course you can have a negative volume envelope.

Then i thought about it...

I use negative envelopes on the VCA of my cs15 all the time.

It's useful when you are running audio through an external input. :-)

[gremlin moon]

Instead of using an inverted amp env I use the AS-606 which is a sequencer specifically made for ambient:

[The Elf]

Is it velocity-sensitive?