Muscle memory is a factor in my opinion that some people who play acoustic instruments (or instruments that aren't being sequenced), just push "play". I mean if they practice enough, it's just going through the motions, isn't it? Especially if they sound the same during every performance.
Sort of... when you have to subtly bend notes to make up for the tuning idiosyncrasies of a guitar for example you can't just repeat the same motions... but maybe you want to create the illusion of that by getting every note to repeat just so.
A pad controller with velocity and poly aftertouch isn't the most expressive thing in the world, but there is more to using one than just hitting switches.
Humans trying to sound like robots and machines programmed to sound kind of like humans... it's that fine line in between where magic can happen I guess.
Sort of... when you have to subtly bend notes to make up for the tuning idiosyncrasies of a guitar for example you can't just repeat the same motions... but maybe you want to create the illusion of that by getting every note to repeat just so.
A pad controller with velocity and poly aftertouch isn't the most expressive thing in the world, but there is more to using one than just hitting switches.
Humans trying to sound like robots and machines programmed to sound kind of like humans... it's that fine line in between where magic can happen I guess.
...yeah man ... definition of the 'blue note' pretty much - and look what that did to western music - you can't fake it
Muscle memory is a factor in my opinion that some people who play acoustic instruments (or instruments that aren't being sequenced), just push "play". I mean if they practice enough, it's just going through the motions, isn't it? Especially if they sound the same during every performance.
"they", "they", "they"...
you should try yourself.
You would realize that it's not "going through the motions".
There are A LOT of definitions of the word "music". My ethnomusicology professor told me about his work about an African tribe. They don`t have a word for music although music is an important part of their culture. the guy who can use a particular "instrument" shows his pupil how to move so it sounds right. they don`t teach how to make the right sounds, because they think its subsidiary. They just teach how to move, because movement is important to them.
I don`t say everything is working through the motions but I wanted to demonstrate that music and its performance is richer than some of us might think.
anyway.
That old discussion about live electronic musicians is stupid. Why do some guys have a problem if another guy uses a laptop for a live performance? Maybe the electronic musician has stolen his girlfriend one time or so. Or is there some hidden envy dominating?
There are some guys playing livesets without a laptop, they are using analog hardware sequenced by analog hardware, twisting every single parameter, 5 twists a second. how can you call that "just pushing play"?? If they just push play you will maybe here a sine wave for 60minutes and nothing else.
Or in my case : My techno livesets are build around Ableton Live tweaked by midi controllers. I have control over all parameters (drum envelopes, levels, panning, fx, triggering, sidechaining, eq, notelength, patternlength, patternsequencing, sequencing in general and so much more).
I am the pre-composer of it and during live performances I am the conductor and improviser at the same time. And I think that`s a very applicable and legit way of describing my livesets and the liveset-method of a lot of other edm guys: The CONDUCTOR.
Or why don`t we discuss if Herbert von Karajan or Nikolaus Hanoncourt were/are bad musicians, just waving around that little stick whereas all the other guys are actually doing the music?
Every musician of an orchestra will tell you that the music sucks if the conductor has bad skills.
The real strange part of this is that the public never demanded a liver performance in EDM events, there never was a need for it. It is something imposed by producers who wanted to tour more and created the whole live act thing.
The downsides IMHO:
1.- 1-2 hours of music by the same artist: this is detrimental to the range of music you can hear at an event. The more live acts the less diversity you get.
2.- Less time to get new artist out there: Less space for dj's (which are the ones digging for new music and expose it first to the crowd) means less time for new music.
3.- The crowd becomes less open to listen to new things, specially they start expecting one hour of music by a single artist.
4.- devaluation of real live performance: 90% of live acts out there just push play, the crowd really doesn't know the difference anyway so they start demanding more live acts (cause they believe is better), so producers have to comply and drop djing for a "live performance", which just ends up being fake.
5.- Music sales fall: dj's are the ones that consume EDM, if they don't get out there they stop consuming music.
Look at the psytrance scene, it's the future: 0 sales, 0 dj's, boring events, almost 0 production of new good music, 0 commercial labels, no new artist at events.
wow dude ...
All I can say to such an unworldly post: I am disagreeing with you in every single of your shortsighted points.
Just take your strange psytrance comparison : I am no psyhead anymore and I don`t know the psy situation in your area but here in whole Europe it is definitely the opposite of what you are talking about.
Sorry for being rude, but it`s just not true what you are saying.
This thread could have been awesome but for some reason people started talking about technique and guitar bullshit.
I think the point here is what the performer actually does live and how whatever he/she/they do relates to what comes out of the speakers. Djing seems to be a half finished idea imo as much as some are fanatic about it, it's just lining up rhythms of each track so they meet up (thats the general idea anyway). what about say an act that uses midi to turn on/off each individual channel and apply effects on each channel also to create build ups and to control the dynamics of the tracks. would this be more of what performing electronic music live would be about??
This thread could have been awesome but for some reason people started talking about technique and guitar bullshit.
I think the point here is what the performer actually does live and how whatever he/she/they do relates to what comes out of the speakers. Djing seems to be a half finished idea imo as much as some are fanatic about it, it's just lining up rhythms of each track so they meet up (thats the general idea anyway). what about say an act that uses midi to turn on/off each individual channel and apply effects on each channel also to create build ups and to control the dynamics of the tracks. would this be more of what performing electronic music live would be about??
No.
The first question is: do we need live performances at EDM events? does the public cares about them? if not, what do they care about?
I dono i sort of think live music is about the crowd connecting with the performer and everyone connecting as one (atleast that what i got when i went to live shows after a few jays); and to do this most effectively would be to not lie about what you are doing for a start. Maybe the public don't care if they see someone truely performing real music or if they see kesha lip syncing but as an electronic music fanatic i would like see real performances and i'm sure most of the real fans dont want to hear an mp3 playing :D
All I can say to such an unworldly post: I am disagreeing with you in every single of your shortsighted points.
Just take your strange psytrance comparison : I am no psyhead anymore and I don`t know the psy situation in your area but here in whole Europe it is definitely the opposite of what you are talking about.
Sorry for being rude, but it`s just not true what you are saying.
well that's from my experience attending parties and watching the trend that live acts have brought.
The first question is: do we need live performances at EDM events? does the public cares about them? if not, what do they care about?
we two are pretty different people, but that`s ok
Isn`t it completelly unnecessary if we need live performances?
And isn`t it completely unnecessary what the "public" cares about?
Since decades the concept "edm party" works perfect. We CAN do different things now (and actually since decades too) and the people wanna know whats going on. I don`t mind the drop-in customers because they really don`t care if its a dj, a liveact or a winamp list. But the people to care about DO care about you too.
This is music and art and emotion and body movement and NOT marketing or sales science. Actually I don`t care if the crowd likes what I am playing live because my music reflects myself. it reflects (a) year(s) of hard work. That`s why I am selfconfident and I think that`s the reason why most of the other liveacts are selfconfident too and actually I know what my sound can do and it can definitely let people dance. The party goes on anyway, why don`t spice it up with some depth and some fresh stuff which hasn`t been spinned by 100 DJs? I think that the party crowd benefits from live performances and DJ sets. Because they get to hear the DJ`s taste AND they hear music which probably never gets released (liveset).
You can integrate a liveact seamlessly between two DJ sets, just don`t stop the music, fade in your live intro and at the end fade out the outro and let the other DJ rise the deck`s volume and there is no interruption for the dancers.
I personally always loved to see edm liveacts. I prefered going to parties with liveacts playing because I wanted to see and hear an artist and not an exchangeable DJ spinning exchangeable vinyls. Because vinyls and digital formats can be heard at home too, whereas lots of livesets just can be heard and danced to on the party.
But of course it depends on what someone is expecting from a party. If it`s just getting drunk and having fun, well, then surely nobody needs liveacts. but then nobody needs a DJ too because the cd deck can play music alone and needs no human to let drunk guys flirt and dance.
I am happy that in my area a lot of people are music interested and wanna know whats going on and appreciate an artist`s work.
For me it`s a problem when edm parties are just seen as parties to have fun and the music loses any importance. THAT´s ruining the scene.
But we are talking here about a minority. Most of the edm performers are DJs and most of the liveacts are djing too. I don`t know the ratio but from my experience I`d guess DJ : Liveact = 50 : 1
So I don`t think that your concerns (login) have any big influence on the scene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by login
No.
why "no"? Ìf a guy is playing a bass guitar on the stage it is live isn`t it? His bass guitar is the equivalent to a bass synth. The bass guitar player can hit the strings hard or soft, he can slide and pick and whatelse. The edm liveact`s bass synth can be played hard or soft, it`s timbre can be controlled, it`s dynamic, its sequence, notelengths and everything else.
You can even say the bass guitar is an equivalent to a sample because you can do the same tricks on a sample.
Do YOU see any difference here when thinking of the musical output besides the different methods and ways of controlling? Because I don`t see it.
You could even say a bass guitar played by a human on stage isn`t live because it`s pre-tuned which means a bass guitar is an instrument with ONE preset and the guy playing it has learned how to press and push pieces of strings so the bass guitar sounds like a bass.
I don`t think so, but this comparison fits your comment.
The only difference I see is that the edm liveact is controlling much more than just one instrument because he/she is the conducting musician.
I really thought that this thread might come to the general conclusion that "yeah, live electronic music can require skill and the performance can be enhanced by it"
Instead it just turned into a bunch of people telling everybody else how much they know about what constitutes talent... (and good music).
Which is kinda strange cos' I highly doubt many people in the thread could do what any of the videos posted in the thread illustrate.
At the end of the day I think that the output is the most important thing (ie. doesn't matter how the sound gets there as long as it sounds good and people are entertained by it (who is entertained is the big fight))... But I appreciate that utilizing a skill like the one displayed in the initial and proceeding videos can certainly enhance a performance in that it makes the show more flexible and adds another element to the performance for people to enjoy.
It also helps that I really really like the music in the video and the "live-ness" of it kinda makes it all encompassing for me...
You would realize that it's not "going through the motions".
i play piano, and when i had lessons at a young age, i practiced a lot of the same thing. running up and down scales is going through the motions. you practice a piece for a month and after a while, there is a large part that is second nature. whether the performer goes beyond that is up to that person. so it all holds true for both in my opinion - traditional or electronic music - it depends on the person. it is possible to be just as expressive with both or just as boring with both in a live situation.
DJ Literature is where the money is now.
Yes use to have odd lyrics but it wasnt the lyrics that made us go practice more.
But speaking of texts and lyrics I have made several novels and been successful by copying chapters form different Books then giving them a new title.
I am going to figure out a way for the book to be read to you like mommy use to do, and then give permission for my already stolen material to have the chapters read back in random order so the reader can do a re mix of a re mix and the crowds will cheer.
Making money off of plug ins with spinning reels and glowing tubes, tape emulations that are the most basic form smearing a signal, I mean lets make the cash while the Sheep are following the rest of the herd.
But the tragic Greek Irony is that I make a ton of cash and buy the best hardware around, and have chops up the ying yang, but the crowds flock around the guy with a headphone up to his ear as he messes with Abletons Barely Alive, this is why I figured the books would work great.
Isn`t it completelly unnecessary if we need live performances?
And isn`t it completely unnecessary what the "public" cares about?
Since decades the concept "edm party" works perfect. We CAN do different things now (and actually since decades too) and the people wanna know whats going on. I don`t mind the drop-in customers because they really don`t care if its a dj, a liveact or a winamp list. But the people to care about DO care about you too.
This is music and art and emotion and body movement and NOT marketing or sales science. Actually I don`t care if the crowd likes what I am playing live because my music reflects myself. it reflects (a) year(s) of hard work. That`s why I am selfconfident and I think that`s the reason why most of the other liveacts are selfconfident too and actually I know what my sound can do and it can definitely let people dance. The party goes on anyway, why don`t spice it up with some depth and some fresh stuff which hasn`t been spinned by 100 DJs? I think that the party crowd benefits from live performances and DJ sets. Because they get to hear the DJ`s taste AND they hear music which probably never gets released (liveset).
You can integrate a liveact seamlessly between two DJ sets, just don`t stop the music, fade in your live intro and at the end fade out the outro and let the other DJ rise the deck`s volume and there is no interruption for the dancers.
I personally always loved to see edm liveacts. I prefered going to parties with liveacts playing because I wanted to see and hear an artist and not an exchangeable DJ spinning exchangeable vinyls. Because vinyls and digital formats can be heard at home too, whereas lots of livesets just can be heard and danced to on the party.
But of course it depends on what someone is expecting from a party. If it`s just getting drunk and having fun, well, then surely nobody needs liveacts. but then nobody needs a DJ too because the cd deck can play music alone and needs no human to let drunk guys flirt and dance.
I am happy that in my area a lot of people are music interested and wanna know whats going on and appreciate an artist`s work.
For me it`s a problem when edm parties are just seen as parties to have fun and the music loses any importance. THAT´s ruining the scene.
But we are talking here about a minority. Most of the edm performers are DJs and most of the liveacts are djing too. I don`t know the ratio but from my experience I`d guess DJ : Liveact = 50 : 1
So I don`t think that your concerns (login) have any big influence on the scene.
why "no"? Ìf a guy is playing a bass guitar on the stage it is live isn`t it? His bass guitar is the equivalent to a bass synth. The bass guitar player can hit the strings hard or soft, he can slide and pick and whatelse. The edm liveact`s bass synth can be played hard or soft, it`s timbre can be controlled, it`s dynamic, its sequence, notelengths and everything else.
You can even say the bass guitar is an equivalent to a sample because you can do the same tricks on a sample.
Do YOU see any difference here when thinking of the musical output besides the different methods and ways of controlling? Because I don`t see it.
You could even say a bass guitar played by a human on stage isn`t live because it`s pre-tuned which means a bass guitar is an instrument with ONE preset and the guy playing it has learned how to press and push pieces of strings so the bass guitar sounds like a bass.
I don`t think so, but this comparison fits your comment.
The only difference I see is that the edm liveact is controlling much more than just one instrument because he/she is the conducting musician.
The way you describe I would agree, but in reality 90% of so called live acts are about pushing play and waving hands.
In fact is detrimental to that experience you just described: expressing, connecting, performing.
Didn't read entire thread but can't believe that no one mentioned Martial Canterel. Many tunes of his are "dancy" (in a minimal synth fashion) and he uses no playback machines, no computers, just analog sequencers, 2 SH-101s for bass + leads and a great modular rig!!
A lot of the videos I see here have an element of playback to them, which is fine. But if you want pure analog well...
I already stated all dance music isnt electronic. I think we are in agreement but we are somehow having a misunderstanding via the form of communication.
But you're totally wrong. Dance, techno and others which created in my country a lot (The Netherlands) and UK and Germany is just Dance (music).
Danceable music is what else than Dance music. I you ask someone in europe what music he/she likes and they say Dance music. They mean electronic dance music. Dance music is an subgenre in electronic music. These styles are relatives of dance music, Trance and some harder styles like Techno, Hardstyle, Hardcore and even extra hard shit like Industrial or Speedcore.
Well yeah...... In traditional Bulgarian music, people like to dance to rhythms like 7/16 (2+2+3), 9/16 (2+2+2+3) and 11/16 (2+2+3+2+2), at speeds over 8th note=200. Nobody told them they shouldn't...
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