OMG!! I entered a new indie rock band but the guitar player is very damn loud. It is tough for me to hear the vocals and my synthesizer. I took my andromeda and I feel the rest of the band wanted to try to tell him to low down his volume so that the keyboard ideas could be more appreciated, but they did not tell him.
There was a moment were he stopped playing and said that he was feeling that the keyboards were having a very improtant role and not the guitars, and I told him: "You want a band with some background keyboards or you want a keyboard player as a member of your band"
I want you to know if you have had an experience with a loud guitarist and how have you managed those situations?
I had times were I could never feel my sounds cut through a mix until my ANdromeda and Moog arrived. I remember Wakeman said once:
"What was great about synthesizers was that you coould be able to compete with the guitar player" jajaja
Thoug not a Wakeman fan I think he is right and I believe guitar players do not have that same leading role. Especially with a monster like the Andy.
So I wanted to share that with you and read your points of view. :D
I've been in that situation before. Here's my suggestion. Before the band starts practicing do a sound check with the guitar player and establish a max volume for both of you. While playing if he exceeds max volume let him know. If he ignores you and he's really loud stop playing.
Tell the band that you can't play without hearing yourself (which of course is completely true). Work it out from there. You can also record the band, even a phone will do.
Just turn yourself up problem solved.
Or not.
Ask the leader of the band if he can hear your synth or if its loud enough..
Guitar players have big egos & most rock is guitar driven so expect some resistance from the guitar player. Most likely he will not willingly turn down
he needs to get his tone you know
Just go over his head thats if he is not the leader of the band..
__________________ Last edited by NEXUS-6; 2003 Reason: MPC 4000 Rules!!
This is really about decisions and what's going to be best. it's not ( or it shouldn't be) about standing in a vacuum unhappy about the guitar player upstaging Any serious band discusses levels and decides what's going to be dominant in any situation. Then the sound guy mixes accordingly. If you are in a foldback monitor situation, then if the on stage mix is preventing you from hearing...you simply need less of what's a problem in your monitor, or more of yourself. But if an onstage guitar rig is still a problems,, you need to be repositioned or beef up what you have. But it should never be about a personal volume war in real time...that's amateur hour, and it's disrespectful
Just turn yourself up problem solved.
Or not.
Ask the leader of the band if he can hear your synth or if its loud enough..
Guitar players have big egos & most rock is guitar driven so expect some resistance from the guitar player. Most likely he will not willingly turn down
he needs to get his tone you know
Just go over his head thats if he is not the leader of the band..
Ermmm the guitarist is usually the leader of any band.......naturally
even tho the rest of the band may not understand that
As a long time guitarist, synthesist, various other instrumentalist, etc I have a few things to offer:
Most seasoned guitarists play loud for a reason, their amps (most especially tube amps) are designed to sound "better" when more of the signal is pumping through 12" speakers, making them vibrate violently and churn out a "sweet spot" if it were in the sound. On the flip side, a lot of less experienced guitarists play loud because they just like being loud. And of course there's always the issue of playing loud enough to hear a good sound over the drums.
If the guitarist ends up willing to work with you and help make your sounds blend together better, suggest they purchase an attenuator for their amp, so they can get that "cranked" sound at lower volumes.
1st - Earplugs. Use them, please. For your own health, and also very importantly, you can HEAR all the other instruments/your own a LOT better in a band situation. This may only be applicable to rehearsing in smaller rooms if you can get a decent monitor situation going on onstage. Though it is still recommend to always wear them anyway.
2nd - Get an amp, or PA that is able to be just as loud as if not louder than the guitarist. You're both battling over the drums but a 100w Mesa Boogie tube amp into even just a 2x12 cabinet can get easily louder than a drumset and not even be turned up halfway. So being able to easily get louder than the guitarist, while not the "sonic" answer, will at least more than likely give you some leverage on sitting down and really hashing out everyone's levels.
3rd - While I don't want to tell anyone what to play, ever, do at least take into consideration what types of sounds/notes & chords you are playing along with the band. IS the sound something that sounds good cutting through anyway? I agree with the other poster who recommended recording the band. For your sake and even the guitarists, you may not even realize how loud you may or may not be to the others depending on where you are positioned in relation to the speaker your sounds are coming out of.
4th - Cut out some bass. This is really more of a starting point where you could adjust and add more in later, but imo, especially when dealing with a guitarist AND bass player, keeping your sounds in the mid/high range (even though you'd think guitarists own mids) can help with volume issues. Granted some sounds you'll WANT bass for, it's just a matter of making the compositions acceptable for all the instruments.
5th - Think about the singer. Are you working with/against/in the background of the vocals? I find keys players and vocalists tend to have good relationships as the keys tend to offer the easiest to hear, least fluctuating, and "on pitch" sounds in a band. Thus, the singer can very often listen for the keys to make sure they are singing correctly, or if they get lost.
All in all the most important thing, If you end up having difficulties with the guitar player, is the option to be able to make yourself LOUD, so that then they will open up the discussion when you start stepping on their territory.
PS - Keep your gear covered and protected at all times at gigs! You never know what sound person/roadie/backstage randoms will put a beer next to your synth and *blonk*, keybed filled with suds. Don't think just because its onstage during another bands performance that its safe either, there's people in bands that put beers on their 3,000 dollar guitar setups and are willing to take the risks, and most the time it isn't so risky to get some sticky amp tops, face plates, etc. Getting beer in a keybed is a horrible, horrible thing. Soft drinks too!
I'd be scared to take an Andromeda anywhere near a band/live gig. If I were you, I'd find a cheaper synth (or at least easier to repair/ has warranty) just in case anything were to happen to it.
I've got an HS-80 that has some bad keys. It was my aunt's, she played in a band back in the 80's and the synth got left outside overnight (in it's hard case), and it rained.
So, is there any information or repairing the keys? Also did the HS-80's keyboard have aftertouch? It doesn't seem to be working with the keyboard. However it works with midi.
I play pads, leads, synth bass sounds (In this one I try to play higher octave so that I fit better with the bass player), brassy sounds OB type. I do not use to much arppegiators as I love more playing them rather than recording them. And no sequencer. My influences go from Pink Floyd to Depeche Mode, Air, Medeski, Reznor, Schulze etc... but well I also play classical music, jazz, salsa and have sang in choirs (Reinassance and Baroque vocal music). I think that especially when you play classical and jazz you tend to learn to manage dynamics very well but I am aware of being heavy when it comes to Industrial sounds for the hard songs.
I agree with the person that says that Vocalists tend to like keyboard players because they can feel the harmonies all over much more.
Thanks guys for your points of view. Very valuable info as for now.
By the way I am having my first concert with this band on thursday But we wont have a professional sound engineer (sorry no budget for Rock in my country) but with a good engineer I agree that things could be a lot easier.
I'd be scared to take an Andromeda anywhere near a band/live gig. If I were you, I'd find a cheaper synth (or at least easier to repair/ has warranty) just in case anything were to happen to it.
Well you are right about that. I´m into that. Especially if it is someone with a beer :O. Although on thursday the stage is very high
OMG!! I entered a new indie rock band but the guitar player is very damn loud. It is tough for me to hear the vocals and my synthesizer. I took my andromeda and I feel the rest of the band wanted to try to tell him to low down his volume so that the keyboard ideas could be more appreciated, but they did not tell him.
Not hearing the synth is one thing, but if the guitar player is so load that you cannot hear tze vocals, this band has no future anyways.
Usually the vocals are the loudest thing and should be clearly heard and understood.
maybe the guitar player doesn't have much band experience ?
Guitar players are found a dozen on every street corner, if he cannot integrate his playing in a band sound, fire him and get somebody to play guitar who can integrate in a band.
I played guitar in a band with another guitarist. We started out just with
a bit of jam. As we didn't know each other our sounds clashed a lot.
Not pleasing for each of us and the other band members.
We got around this by sitting down without the band and jam at low
volume or just with acoustic guitars a few times. Helped a lot because
we learned what the other would do in a certain situation. I became
much easier to jam just by sorting these things out. After a while we
knew when to switch the registers. Also we moved the amps around
in our room until all could hear everything quite well. And yes, we played
pretty loud.
Later on when we worked on arrangements it was just a pleasure...
I played some synth and keys for some stuff and the same ideas
worked for us.
Most guitarists I know hate keyboarder because their sound is often
full range of the spectrum and the keys claim their sacred territory...
Try to sit down with this guy alone and jam a bit and learn how to
arrange the things together
Wow i'd be out of their... That's just me though and im prob a control freak but i simply cant stand playing with people who dont play as a band..
And never do as a result...
Sorry crap answer but maybe ultimately the right one?
Few guitarists know how to play with a keyboard player. It is not necessarily their volume level but the way they voice chords which dominates the overall sound. When a band has a keyboardist doing a good share of the chordal work the guitarist should be playing single note riffs or chord arpeggios rather than thick 5 or 6 note chords. Even using a clean sound on the guitar dense chord voicings will often wash out the keys. When a keyboardist comes into a band the guitarist no longer has to fill so much space and needs to re-think his approach.
Examples of keyboard-friendly guitarists are Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple, Robby Krieger of The Doors, and Carlos Santana. Ritchie hardly ever plays a full chord yet still sounds loud and heavy without drowning out the keys. Robby usually plays single note lines and arpeggios that co-ordinate with what the keyboard is doing. When he does play chords it is often a light four-note voicing on the upper strings. Carlos Santana is another player who keeps his chord voicings light usually using a maximum of 4 upper-string notes along with 2-note double-stops which leaves plenty of space for the keys.
Wow i'd be out of their... That's just me though and im prob a control freak but i simply cant stand playing with people who dont play as a band..
And never do as a result...
Sorry crap answer but maybe ultimately the right one?
Pretty much this and I'm a guitar player who likes to play loud... playing in a band is team work, if you find someone's in there just to satisfy his ego you have to stop wasting your time. I wasted a lot of time playing with people that either couldn't play or who you had to handle like princesses to get them to do what the rest of the band wanted them to do... life's too short. Only exceptions are if someone is musically exceptional or has great charisma, etc. Then you just gotta put up with their BS.
Pretty much this and I'm a guitar player who likes to play loud... playing in a band is team work, if you find someone's in there just to satisfy his ego you have to stop wasting your time. I wasted a lot of time playing with people that either couldn't play or who you had to handle like princesses to get them to do what the rest of the band wanted them to do... life's too short. Only exceptions are if someone is musically exceptional or has great charisma, etc. Then you just gotta put up with their BS.
I've got an HS-80 that has some bad keys. It was my aunt's, she played in a band back in the 80's and the synth got left outside overnight (in it's hard case), and it rained.
So, is there any information or repairing the keys? Also did the HS-80's keyboard have aftertouch? It doesn't seem to be working with the keyboard. However it works with midi.
Click on the guy's YouTube channel there is a whole series on fixing stuff. I'm sure it is covered if not on the HS-80 on something else.
Your band needs an independent person to help with levels. In my band one of our backing singers has the final say on stage levels No ifs or buts he will listen to everyone's opinion but has the final say. Works great without this you end up with a volume war and that does not have a good ending.
I recommend ear muffs, more than earplugs by a long shot, they help immensely with resonance and feedback noises, let alone the volume control. I even use it while gigging.
As a long time guitarist, synthesist, various other instrumentalist, etc I have a few things to offer:
Most seasoned guitarists play loud for a reason, their amps (most especially tube amps) are designed to sound "better" when more of the signal is pumping through 12" speakers, making them vibrate violently and churn out a "sweet spot" if it were in the sound.
The concert went perfect. My Alesis Andromeda was in the eyes and ears of everybody. People were very impressed with it´s sound. The band hired a sound engineer and when making a sound check, the engineer told the guitar to lower the volume a lot the he did it and the engineer said "hey dude lower more please" and he accepted. I realized that I was right about it :D
We where very lucky to have a great live sound engineer. Or else he would have been darn loud.
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when it comes to Industrial sounds for the hard songs.
