I find that a lot of the things I study on the piano don't really translate to synths, in particular monophonic ones.
I know a few licks that I've stolen from music I like but my synth riff repertoire is very limited... I'm particularly interested in funky basslines and the likes, the kind of stuff that starts a good jam.
Anyone know a good book/dvd/website ? Preferably something with some analysis rather than a dry list of riffs.
If I had the time I would just go through records and transcribe everything that catches my ear, but that's not realistic at the moment.
Thats not really what I'm looking for though.
I am in fact actively learning to improvise. I spend hours practicing blues improv on the piano every week.
But licks are important too, they can be a source of inspiration, something to incorporate in your musical vocabulary, it's not just about knowing the scales ( which I do ).
I am looking for synth specific ones, there are things that work on a synth and not on a piano and inversely.
I don't get it...when I used to obsessively play blues guitar, I learned all my licks (I improvised, but I'm talking about standard licks you fall back to, etc) from my favorite records (Hendrix, SRV, etc etc)...so I'm assuming the same would be true of synth licks...
For funky bass experiment using blues scales. (Example attached)
Have I lost my mind, or does that link show a C minor scale which is ... alternative? It's been a long day and I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick ...
There's two ways not mentioned yet that works for me: midi files and korg karma.
For the former you can either convert to sheet music, or use the piano grid. I learned several jazz standards that way. I just turn the piano off and play over the midi bass and drums from a workstation. Anyways, I got a lot of ideas from those when I play EM.
For the latter, I have a lot of fun sending that midi to analogue synths and my virus.
Riffs come from you...you only.. Piano,, guitar, Cello, singing in the shower. You don't study a riff,, you invent it. That happens by starting with nothing and playing...sometimes like panning for gold....you end up with a nugget
Guys I'm not here to discuss the pros and cons of doing it one way or another, I've been there, I was asking for something specific. Noodling around is cool, but I'd just like to accelerate the process a bit.
Maybe it just doesn't exist but there's millions of them for guitar, piano and sax etc so I was surprised to find very little on synths.
Guys I'm not here to discuss the pros and cons of doing it one way or another, I've been there, I was asking for something specific. Noodling around is cool, but I'd just like to accelerate the process a bit.
Maybe it just doesn't exist but there's millions of them for guitar, piano and sax etc so I was surprised to find very little on synths.
Sorry man...You can't accelerate making music. Unless of course you just want someone else to make it for you.
synths can make any sound pretty much though so what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense. For sounds roughly equivalent to real world ones, have a look at the existing repertoires for the acoustic version, i.e. brass, guitar, bass, piano, woodwind what have you - presumably a monophonic acoustic instrument's playing style will fit much more with a monophonic synth.
Although of course, one of the main beauties of a synth is that in many cases there are loads of things you can do that you could never do in the real world, in which case its down to you to find it out.
Sorry man...You can't accelerate making music. Unless of course you just want someone else to make it for you.
I just want something to practice synth chops on, and a starting point to making more of my own. By accelerating I mean I don't have the time to listen to hundreds of tunes and transcribe my own at the moment.
Most of my free time is already taken up by practicing the piano which is my current priority.
Plus I'd like some experienced player's insight on correct technique / fingering etc.
When you learn an instrument people don't tell you "go noodle around and see what you come up with", you learn to play someone else's music first.
Same thing here, expect a riff is nothing else than a very short piece and has the advantage of being more reusable, of course with putting your own soul into it.
Now could we get back on topic ?
When you learn an instrument people don't tell you "go noodle around and see what you come up with", you learn to play someone else's music first.
Some people do exactly that.
The Jamey Abersold learn to improvise(or whatever it's called) series get's you to learn some scales and then tells you to noodle.
What is it about the stuff your learning that doesn't work ?
I cant understand how a riff on one keyboard based instrument wouldn't work on another keyboard based instrument. It makes me wunder what you've been studying.
You say you've found lot's of riffs for guitar, piano and sax etc. They should work for synths or almost any other instrument you choose to play.
It's the riff that important , not the instrument.
There are quite a few (understatement) examples of riffs that were played on guitars (bass and electric),pianos,horns ,etc in early funk, dub reggae and disco that translate very well to modern electronic instruments and styles.
If riffs written on guitars and pianos didn't translate well to synths Vince Clarke , Depeche mode and quite a few others wouldn't have had any hits with synths in.
Thanks that's actually the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Only more for monophonic synths
@Acid mitch - as I said I've been there. I have been improvising on the guitar for years and years and now on the piano.
In my experience the "here are some scales, now go improvise" approach only takes you so far. Most of the great improvisers have a huge repertoire of licks that they rely upon and mix with complete on the spot improvisation.
But that's off topic.
Anyway I know you can play music written for any instruments, what I have in mind is some stuff that is specific to synths like taking advantage of note priority feature / retriggering vs not retriggering the env depending on whether you play legato or staccato etc.
Basically taking into account the instrument technique.
For example if you try to play some bass guitar riffs on an analogue synth it's almost impossible to play certain ghost notes and some of the fast octaves which are essential to the groove so some lines just don't work.
I'm getting a bit tired of explaining myself though - maybe what I was looking for just doesn't exist so let's let this thread die unless someone actually has some links in which case I'd be very grateful.
I think u r getting frustrated because many of us (mostly myself!!!) how no clue about scales, correct fingering or chords. Yet we improvise and hack away and sequence and program.
To me the mindset of an electronic musician is v different to anyone classically trained in an instrument.
Im pretty sure Kraftwerk and Aphex twin never cared about "licks".
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Synths: Roland SH-101, adafruit XOXBOX, Yamaha SY22 and AN200, Novation KS-R and Korg EMX-1
In my experience the "here are some scales, now go improvise" approach only takes you so far. Most of the great improvisers have a huge repertoire of licks that they rely upon and mix with complete on the spot improvisation.
Most of the greats copy licks from their inspirations, then string them together with their own flair to make somehting unique...think Clapton and Robert Johnson or Keith Richards and Chuck Berry or SRV copping licks from r&B records (he mentioned the first solo he copied was from Mickey and Sylvia's "Love Is Strange", on his brother Jimmy's guitar.)
So, finds synth records with licks you like and copy them, once you have copied them change something and make your own.
Really no different from copying the licks from that video you liked so much.
On the first 4 or so Kraftwerk albums it sounds like Kraftwerk were fairly competent at playing acoustic instruments. Unless of course they used session musicians and mimed flute , drums, etc for live performances
I kind of know what you're talking about.
Remember the piano is considered a percussive instrument, whereas a synth can sound like anything.
If improvising doesn't inspire you, try listening to something you like in another genre of music that gets you excited. I often pull out something like DAISY CHAINSAW or some old punk or dub, get the creative juices flowing by working out the riff, what key is it, what mode is it in.
Suddenly you'll start finding your own variations, and get your own vibe going.
In my experience the "here are some scales, now go improvise" approach only takes you so far. Most of the great improvisers have a huge repertoire of licks that they rely upon and mix with complete on the spot improvisation.
.
Yes they mostly either came up with licks in practice/jam/writing sessions or as cramseur and others said, copied what was going on around them .
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysander
Anyway I know you can play music written for any instruments, what I have in mind is some stuff that is specific to synths like taking advantage of note priority feature / retriggering vs not retriggering the env depending on whether you play legato or staccato etc.
Basically taking into account the instrument technique.
.
That technique will change from synth to synth. Most of the classic synths only had one note priority(as do some modern synths ) and they weren't all the same one and you cant always change between note retriggering/not retriggering, so thing's like that you have to figure out yourself for whatever synth your playing on.
I don't see it as different from playing riffs on a guitar(or horns,or whatever) and knowing when to add slides and bends when they haven't been notated.
It's something you pick up when you gain experience with your choosen instrument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lysander
For example if you try to play some bass guitar riffs on an analogue synth it's almost impossible to play certain ghost notes and some of the fast octaves which are essential to the groove so some lines just don't work..
In situations like that you can often come up with aproximations/adaptations that will still sound good. Do it well enough and no one will be able to tell you were trying to copy something but couldn't.
Switching on/off lfo's and arps as you play can help with fast octaves.
In my experience the "here are some scales, now go improvise" approach only takes you so far. Most of the great improvisers have a huge repertoire of licks that they rely upon and mix with complete on the spot improvisation.
Anyway I know you can play music written for any instruments, what I have in mind is some stuff that is specific to synths like taking advantage of note priority feature / retriggering vs not retriggering the env depending on whether you play legato or staccato etc.
Basically taking into account the instrument technique.
For example if you try to play some bass guitar riffs on an analogue synth it's almost impossible to play certain ghost notes and some of the fast octaves which are essential to the groove so some lines just don't work.
I'm getting a bit tired of explaining myself though - maybe what I was looking for just doesn't exist so let's let this thread die unless someone actually has some links in which case I'd be very grateful.
That last bit is basically right... what you're looking for doesn't really exist. And what you say about playing the bass guitar riffs is right, too - some of it just doesn't work. That's kind of the reality of the situation. You didn't really need to keep explaining yourself, everyone understood - their answers are the real answers, there simply aren't these resources.
I think I know where you're at, you're pretty excited about what you've been doing and what you've figured out and you want something to act as a good source of information so you can keep going down that track and learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. I'm in that boat all the time, partly why I come to gearslutz at all.
There are basically two types of people who play with synthesizers.
In the academic world, the entire point of synthesizers is to not play notes at all - here in electro-acoustic university land, we think in frequency and not pitch (pitch is an old-hat limitation of antiquated systems like, uh, the piano). Keyboards essentially stunted the growth of synthesizers. A keyboard is fundamentally non-idiomatic for a synthesizer. Tuning troubles on old synths are partially the result of trying to tune them to a pre-existing system in the first place, systems design for an entirely different set of instruments with entirely different sets of properties.
In academic music alternative input like light sensors, force sensors, infrared proximity detectors, pitch-followers, generative systems, or indeed sequencing is generally seen as the more appropriate way to play a synthesizer. Basically anything that gives you access to the entire spectrum as musical material, and doesn't arbitrarily sub-divide it into a set of 12. Don't even get me started on arbitrarily dividing it into 12.
In short, synthesizers are made for playing sounds, and not really for playing notes.
Actually, that idea extends to acoustic composition in academia as well. My last score for chamber ensemble had no notes in it whatsoever. Nor did it have staves, or keys, or.... the best part was when the clarinettist tore his score up and thru it at the conductor.
Incidentally, I play free improv (usually on clarinet or upright bass), and would be kicked out if I had a bank of riffs. Although once I thru in Smoke on the Water for a joke as the leader was talking about when it's appropriate to be melodic. If you ask me, the "here's some scales, go noodle" thing isn't improvisation at all, it's just choosing from a list. It takes a lot to transform that into actual free expression (Miles, Coltrane, Coleman, Taylor, etc). Scales are useful but dangerous. Improv isn't something you really learn by studying, it's something you learn by doing.
The other basic use of synthesizers is in pop music and electronic dance music. Very few of the people who use them in this sphere are highly-trained players, and very few care to become highly-trained players. Again the focus is on the sounds the synthesizer makes rather than how it's played. All you need is like a hoover doing slightly syncopated octaves and... you're done. Ghost note on a synth keyboard? Who cares?
(I know that you care, but what I mean is that you're trying to apply idioms from familiar instruments with to an instrument which is only incidentally related to those idioms.)
In short and in general, far more people use synthesizers to [I]compose[I] than as a physical performance instrument, and that's because synthesizers were designed more or less for composition and not for performance. The first synthesizers were banks of knobs and wires, remember. Slapping a keyboard on it was and continues to be a half-measure to make it more playable by people who are more familiar with fundamentally different instruments and musical systems.
(I'm not trying to knock your skill or what you're doing or anything, that's just the truth of the matter.)
Synthesizers are a very new instrument and there is a very small culture surrounding them, and nearly everyone in that culture is self-taught, including in the universities. There has not been time for a synthesizer technique to become codified, and because each individual model of synth only shares a few basic building blocks with other synths, it's highly likely that there won't be a codified synthesizer technique. Just like the mouse-and-keyboard computer input system are already on the way to obsolescence, probably so are synth keyboards in general.
Why people keep giving you short, terse replies, and why they keep saying the same thing, is because you keep saying you don't have the time to do it yourself. Which is fair, especially if it's because you're practicing piano so much (good for you), but the fact of the matter is, there really is no shortcut in this instance to just doing all that yourself. If you boil down what you're saying, you're saying "I don't have time to practice one instrument because I am devoted to practicing a different instrument." That's not a bad thing, but if you want to really focus and become extremely skilled, then you're going to have to devote the same amount of time to the synthesizer as you do to the piano. Imagine if you said you don't have time to listen to Chopin because you're devoted to learning all the leads in Zapp! songs.
When you learn an instrument people don't tell you "go noodle around and see what you come up with", you learn to play someone else's music first.
there you got your answer.
You probably just don't realize that the synthesizer is an instrument:
You maybe be excused since most people use it as an "automated something" whose main purpose is making things easier, and getting skrillex-rich without being able to play,
but it is a specific and exacting instruments; with specific fingering and techniques, and the unique feature of being a flexible instrument whose architecture, sound, and response to keybaodr and controllers can change according to your playing style and musical ideas.
which just adds to the difficulty.
Learn to play someone else's music (and to program these people's sounds), listen to it, transcribe it, take your time.
Take the effing time.
Why should the piano take you time and effort,
and the synthesizer be just a sans-souci?
Quote:
Originally Posted by YeggmanX
In short, synthesizers are made for playing sounds, and not really for playing notes.
Wow, I think all the guy is looking for is some youtube how to videos or "tab" for some mono synth leads and/or bass lines. Like some Jordan Rudess or something. This kinda of stuff does exist left and right for guitar and bass and piano but you really don't see much on synth.
Try searching youtube for "synth solo how to" or a particular song you are interested in, like "Van Halen Jump synth solo". You can also try Free sheet music for piano | PianoFiles. Haven't really tried that one myself. There doesn't really seem to be any great source of free transcriptions for keys like there are guitar or bass.
I think its wrong to assume piano training, chords, scales, modes, and music theory in general will not help you with creating mono synth leads or melody's. Music is music, and the more you know the better of a musician you will be. Maybe Im a hater, but I dislike the notion of people not coming up with own synth lines, taking it from midi file or just moving notes around. Kinda kills the core/ heart of the music IMO.
Keep learning music theory and applying bits of it to your music, and it will develop. Making/learning music is an ongoing process, even for the pros.
Wow, I think all the guy is looking for is some youtube how to videos or "tab" for some mono synth leads and/or bass lines. Like some Jordan Rudess or something. This kinda of stuff does exist left and right for guitar and bass and piano but you really don't see much on synth.
Exactly thank you.
Actually the Jordan Rudess vids on the Little Phatty is exactly the kind of stuff that I was looking for. Just wish there was more of it
This discussion went really faaaaaar away from the initial purpose.
Some very good points were made though.
To address some of the responses : Yes I was/am looking for a shortcut - a temporary one. I made that clear from the start.
I KNOW this isn't the best way of doing things. I don't need a lecture about what's the best way to improvise or to build one's musical vocabulary.
Don't assume I want to avoid putting time on the instrument altogether, I'm not stupid or lazy, and I will do that in time.
I just wanted something to give me a boost / kick start to keep me enjoying playing the instrument as opposed to programming it. And to give me some ideas/inspiration about the performance possibilties as opposed to the programming possibilities which is the way a majority of people here in particular approach it.
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I just want something to practice synth chops on, and a starting point to making more of my own. By accelerating I mean I don't have the time to listen to hundreds of tunes and transcribe my own at the moment.
Try and imagine a blind man dreaming- Bret Easton Ellis
