if I know exactly what I want and how to make it then I will make the patch myself. if I'm not sure what I want exactly and I'm just experimenting with sound then presets are a good starting point if I find something that works then I will modify it to fit my needs. presets seem to open up my mind to new ideas that I may not have thought of and then after using the preset and analyzing it I learn how to make it, expanding my sound creation capabilities. in the end of the music is what counts not how you go about making it.
Take away the sound design from electronic music and you might as well quit playing with synths altogether, what gives? We didn't start doing this to become the next Mozart now did we? It's what makes us (electronic musicians and synthesists) special IMHO.
Creating patches is part of my composing process, I use what serves the song. And none of my synths have memory or presets, unless you count A440
Creating patches is part of THE composing process of electronic music.
Therfore presetusers should be aware of that they have a co writer or guest musican on board and credit accordingly.
When people would play fair there wouldnt be NO problem.. music dont gets worse when more than one person is involved.. to the contrary..
It just gets a little odd when people pretend to have done something themself allone when its in reality just taken from all over the place. When it wouldnt be so whimpy you could call that a fraud.. but in reality its rather mimicri or epigonism.
In the end it boils down to priorities. The most precious resource any one of us has is our time. You just need to use your time to most effectively work toward your goals.
Bingo
With so many developers marketing "one box does everything" DAW's, plus all the great software companies, and incredible synths such as Reaktor where you can get lost in the creative depths of sonic possibilities for weeks or even months...you have to set your priorities straight.
This is what you wrote. "I'd quite frankly rather spend arranging/developing my tracks." You didn't mention the genre, which I think is important, but I would suggest keep focusing on arranging/developing if that is what you like to do the most.
If you mean mainstream pop, how much time do you think Stargate, Max Martin, or Dr. Luke spend sitting at a keyboard or screen developing patches? I bet they are all good at altering patches, but starting from scratch with a pure sine wave? I highly doubt that. They have many assistants for that.
Electronic music could be different.
If you get into ambient, JMJ or Vangellis... then different.
Some songs are based around the sound of the patch. Maybe it's a unique drone developed after spending hours in Reaktor. If that is your style then yes...I think its very important to develop your own patches.
Sound design plays a major role in my compositions. But for a friend of mine who´s doing commercials for the radio and some trailer stuff sound design plays a minor role. He needs to do his things fast and for his workflow samples and presets are the better choice.
Sound design is like meditation for me. I´m sculpting sounds out of a block of frequencies and modulate them over time. So relaxing, never frustrating. One of the best things that happened to me in my life. Some Synthesizer might not have the easiest learning curve but if you get the hang of it it´s so damn fun and rewarding.
Guitarists use "presets" in the form of a guitar and pedals. Hendrix and Clapton both had the same guitar and a lot of the same effects pedals. Yet they sound worlds apart because they use the sound differently.
Actually I think it's in the way they play, their touch.
You can have two drummers record on the same kit, same mics, and they will still sound different.
Leave a paint blending to paint blenders, just paint? Leave word choosing to word choosers and just write? I can see a difference between a writer and a typist, definitely. The same with a house painter and an artist painter.
Of coourse, no one is obliged to make his own sounds on every synth, but every composer is designing a sound of a composition by arrangement, so he chooses what type of sounds he wants to compose with.
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Gaining which he considers no other gain to be superior to that and abiding therein, he is not shaken even by the greatest of the sorrow.
many roads lead to rome.. i just dont have any respect for people that are not writing at all and use generic sounds and grooves to copy other tracks that are out there. In the moment we have a situation where this applies to 90% of the released electronic music. my question.. why do people to release generic music? Thats just like when beatles or stones or nirwana coverbands would do own records.. where is the point?
When people are so egocentric that they need to release their hobby work they should at least give it some individual note..whether that is just in the composition or in the sound design dont matters so much than aslong the track is good and shows an individual approach.
Of coourse, no one is obliged to make his own sounds on every synth, but every composer is designing a sound of a composition by arrangement, so he chooses what type of sounds he wants to compose with.
This part of your post I can identify with. Someone could take some great or even not so great photographs or film images and arrange them in such a way that the result is synergy and therefore creativity. As that applies to synths and sounds created on synths by others....in reality....sounds that have been created on any one of many platforms are expressions of art (let's all have a group hug)...but seriously I'm not joking. beyond that......If someone experiments with an existing sound and that sound somehow triggers a musical idea that utilizes that sound and that person builds a structure musically around that sound, then this is the same thing, and really, the sound becomes the facilitating vehicle for creative expression and not the invention itself. So....inspiration.
Ooh no - gotta make my own sounds from scratch. Even the drums. I blame Kraftwerk, Human League and Depeche for setting such high standards early on...
That said, if I was a bazillion pound Timbaland style producer working on other peoples crap, I'd go presets all the way. I think making your own sounds makes your own music more personal.
Actually I think it's in the way they play, their touch.
You can have two drummers record on the same kit, same mics, and they will still sound different.
Yeah, because of the expresive qualities of guitar or any other physical instrument I can't fully get behind the "pianos (or other acoustic instrument) are presets" line of thinking. Unless you spend time working on the sounds you're not able to get the same depth of expression, in my experience. Lack of expression is an expression too though and many a pop hit (and/or good song) has been built on this!
As far as pros using presets, I see them using far more sample libraries and getting super involved with the articulation editing and spending way more time on that (or hiring someone to do it!) than the average synthesist. Swings and roundabouts, yeah?
Minor side track, but I think a large part of why "illegal" sampling from finished songs can work so well is that you are sampling the expression and feeling and it gives you a good place to start work from.
A lot of presets are extremely bland and seem to try and appeal to different markets rather than allowing the sound designer to go "balls out" and make sounds that really say something. I understand it from a marketing perspective, but now with the internet, distibuting presets should be easy, even with analog synths! Rather than trying to appeal to all people right out of the box it would be interesting to make smaller packs of specialized, more personal presets.
I like what spectrasonics attempted with Omnisphere it's just too much for me. Same product, same pricing but divided into smaller cheaper, packs of sound and I woulda bought it because there are some neat ideas in those presets.
I make all sounds from scratch. Many of the synths I use don't even have patch memory, so it forces you to be a full-time sound designer. If your synths are capable and you know what you're doing, it's easy to get great results in no time.
+1
it just takes lots of practice, and a determination to find YOUR voice per situation. that's all.
NOTHING WORTHWHILE IS EASY
Quote:
Originally Posted by subby33
And the biggest thing that I've learned really is . . . there aren't THAT many synth sounds.
Synth Bass
Sub Bass
Lead
Pad
Brass
Piano
Super Saw
The rest kind of . . . almost stems from these basic sounds. IMO. Because they're the ones that just work.
that's the most short-sighted, self-imposed nonsense i have read in a long time... if ever.
just....wow.
in EM, timbre rules, moreso than in any other area of human endeavor.
there are trillions, no quadrillions (or more) of different sounds available to the savvy, dedicated composer. Go for it!!!
I think you're right shaft9000, but I don't think subby's comment is really that off. In fact, I think it helps in some capacity to think in terms that simple (not saying his list was all encompassing by any means either)...but every sound ever created is derivative of a simpler sound on some level. So if you've got a solid grasp on how to produce the "standard" synth sounds, I believe it gives you a good starting point on which to build the "quadrillions" of different sounds that can actually be created.
It's kind of like the difference between kindergarten and getting your doctorate. A kindergartner may learn some very basic information about a given topic, but it's about .001% of what someone with their doctorate would learn about the same topic after going to school for years and years.
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I think anyone who outright denounces presets isn't thinking in musical terms. Nobody who listens to your music in the real world (i.e. away from Gearslutz) will know that you used a preset. They won't care where the sound came from or how much you "tweaked" it so long as your song is good. Which is why all the rich and successful pros use presets and people love their stuff; it doesn't ****ing matter.
I won't tell you not to make your own sounds. I do. My favorite artists sure as hell do. But it's entirely a personal choice and it comes down to whether or not it's worth your time when, at the end of the day, it's all about music and creating a piece of art with emotion.
To the OP, it simply sounds like you need to practice more.
Trust me, when you master an instrument, and know it inside and out, it is much faster to design something from scratch than click through thousands of thousands of presets. (15 years personal experience).
This will also help you overall scope of sound production, and how things fit.
You can tailor the sounds to fit the other sounds in your song before you EVER need to reach for an eq or compressor.
Stuff takes years of practice and throwing out thousands of sounds.
Their is no secret to 'big sound' other than practice, and making the sound big from the get go and then tailoring everything around itself . From super trance pads to crazy esoteric modulated stuff shouldn't take hours, it should take minutes (if even that long).
You should have a preconcieved layout of what you want to say or accomplish in your song before you even sit down at any instrument.
Really, for so long I used 'presets' and it was simply lazy, nothing more, nothing less. Lazy to not want to know the instrument and how to get it to 'sing' in relation to how it serves the song.
You wouldn't build a house without a blueprint right?
The answer is work at it. yes there will be much pain, agony and hating of life through the process, loosing time and girlfriends in the process, but in the end its so worth it.
For me it depends on a few things. If the synth is good to go with a lot of ready to use presets, that's usually the nail in the coffin for me really programming my own because... well why? Even if you know a synth intimately it still takes time to do a good patch, I don't care what anyone says... unless you're talking about a very simple sawtooth bass or something... and in that case I'll say again... why? For me it totally breaks the creative flow.
That doesn't mean I'll accept a patch "as is." I'll pretty much make some tweakage 100% of the time if I'm going to use it in a completed song. (I do a lot of "jamming" with audio loopers) So, while it's nice to know how to make a patch from scratch it's just a waste of my time to do it. Week nights I tend to get home from work at about 7-7:30 pm. Put a half hour in to decompress and have some dinner and it's 8:00. Takes at least 10-15 minutes to put away the dishes and get situated in the studio. Dog's usually looking for a walk and kibbles by 9:30-10... Then it's time to brush the pearly whites and hit the hay. So I get about 1.5 hours of decent studio time Monday though Thursday and sometimes a little on the busy weekends. A compromise has to be made and the easiest thing to cut is sound design. I do love it, but not as much as I really love playing. Of course, then there's the Slim Phatty which comes with a bank of really crappy patches. So with that I had to go though and program my own. No biggie, but it took me away from actually playing for a while. Now I've got a Minibrute and with no patch memory and while it's kind of nice to have to roll up your sleeve and get down to patch building with it... I wish it had patch memory.
Now, I know there are EM snobs who'll call you a puss if you don't do your own patches. :roll: For me that's such a poor stance considering how much amazing music is made with instruments that have only a single sound. In fact, when song writing I'll often break out the simple acoustic guitar because the simplicity of the instrument doesn't mask the crappiness of the song writing. I can't tell you how many electronica tracks I hear that just sound like synth demo tracks. Lot's of cool sound design with little or no musical value. And of course no song will stand on it's patches alone. So don't sweat it. Just do what works for you.
Ooh no - gotta make my own sounds from scratch. Even the drums. I blame Kraftwerk, Human League and Depeche for setting such high standards early on...
That said, if I was a bazillion pound Timbaland style producer working on other peoples crap, I'd go presets all the way. I think making your own sounds makes your own music more personal.
Playing devil's advocate, I'll counter that with the idea that writing an EM track becomes an instant collaboration when you choose to work with a patch that's either a factory preset or one you found or bought. There have been plenty of times I've found a patch that is probably something I'd never come to on my own, but that inspires me. Nothing wrong with this, and it can keep things fresh in a way that just dealing with your own style of patch design can't.
I guess this is why in some electronic genres, it common to see duos or trios - typically one person who actually writes the songs, and one or more people to program the sounds and do production..
Actually I think it's in the way they play, their touch.
You can have two drummers record on the same kit, same mics, and they will still sound different.
That's what I meant when I said "use the sound" but I should have made it a bit more clear.
At the end of the day presets are fine -- but boomers and stingers and stabs should strictly be roll your own -- maybe then Fox News and other media fear mongers won't be able to use them to manipulate people's emotions if they can't call one up at a click of the mouse. I am a synthesist against using synths for propaganda.
It boils down to skill. If you have it, you can create new and beautiful sounds that are expressions of yourself. Music is a very powerful method of communication, perhaps the most complete and expressive of all human languages. So if you have the skill to express yourself in a meaningful and fulfilling way, you will use that skill to the best of your ability. But if you don't have the skill, you can use someone else's voice for that expression, but for people like myself, that is not enough. Because once you speak in your own unique and personal voice, you realize that is what individualism and art are really about.
I blame Kraftwerk, Human League and Depeche for setting such high standards early on...
Depeche Mode.. extreme body of work there. I used to think Violator was the pinnacle (I worked the in on that one, two 16 track analog tape machines stage left with backing tracks on them...in sync in case one died.) But more recently..
"Exciter" for me shows some more sophistication. Love that record. The Human League..not in that league (pardon the pun).. but some great stuff. But seriously.. some of the mainstream pop that you hear on the radio today features some really innovative and unusual synth sounds. It might be mindless pop, but behind that mindless mind there is often some obscure and original synthesis. I tend to notice these things from time to time
I can't count the amount of times I've heard factory presets, including arps and sequences in commercial music. It's not like you lose any credibility for using presets. They way I see presets is it being just another tool. That's like saying a guitar player is less authentic because he didn't build his own guitar. Non sense. In the end it comes down to the individual and how they prefer to work.
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I can't count the amount of times I've heard factory presets, including arps and sequences in commercial music. It's not like you lose any credibility for using presets. They way I see presets is it being just another tool. That's like saying a guitar player is less authentic because he didn't build his own guitar. Non sense. In the end it comes down to the individual and how they prefer to work.
The inherent problem with just using premade things (loops, presets, samples, and even midi patterns) is that then the joke of "all this music sounds the same" is no longer a joke but a horrifying reality.
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