12 sends not enough in ableton

[backplay]

One more advantage of send, is that you can choose to send it/or not to the drum/instrument buss.
This way the fx will/won't get processed by the buss compressors, EQ,...
If you always insert the fx, it will always be compressed, EQ'd and it will have an influence on the overall sound.

[Karloff70]

He who says sends are pointless has never experienced the beauty of sending your fx returns to each other to join all the goodness in the back of your mix.

Something that used to be common practice when mixing on a console. And I believe something that through not happening as much these days because large masses of people simply do not know about it has taken a large chunk of glue out of DAW mixes. Some of which likely leading to all those disconnected sounding mixes everywhere.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by edvedder

I'd like to see somewhere between 40-50 send channels LOL

In that case you're probably better off designing a custom effect in Reaktor or something. At least that's not working against you with arbitrary limitations.

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by edvedder

usually if I want to route multiple channels to that filter and then automate stuff on the filter, so everything is coherent... or if I want to use other effects after or before the filter

For this you could use a group channel maybe.
Take a look at fx racks as well.

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by metrosonus

That's basically what i was saying my uber layman's jargon.



yes. ............

I realized most people don't know me here as well as the other forums, so I had to drop out of my "you should know what I mean because you already know me" persona I have on the other forums.

And thanks for giving me crap for it.

No offense, just a discussion about what could help the OP.
There are many recipes and cooks ya know - in the distance lies the future...

[YeggmanX]

you can do parallel processing really easily in Ableton's effects racks if you want -

One effect chain with some effects on it, and one effect chain with no effects on it. Or 20 or 30 chains with effects, and one without, if you really want.

Then you get to use the chain selector, too...


It's like having a "send-insert" sort of. You get control of gain into the effects, gain out of the effects, dry gain, and the gain of the mixed signal.

Awesome on groups/busses.

[MrTechno]

12 is more the enough surely?
Sounds like to me you are going about your routing all the wrong way.

Already some great replies here for you.
12 sends not enough, I wont tell you how many sends my SSL console has and get by just fine.
12 is plenty trust me, 6 is plenty. 2 maybe a little short.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by MrTechno

...I wont tell you how many sends my SSL console has and get by just fine.

So you never use any little faders for extra sends then....ever...?

[crufty]

i think the point is not how much should one use but why have an artificial limitation

the beauty of the virtual world is its ridiculousness and limitless potential

one man's trash is another man's treasure etc

[Touchmaster]

what the hell is wrong with you people ?

[Touchmaster]

[Touchmaster]

this is like complaining why my polysynth doesnt have 8 oscillators.

[MrTechno]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

So you never use any little faders for extra sends then....ever...?

nah not really....
but I then then again i never complain about how limited my sends are also.
Happy with my limited sends on the console.

But seriously i think like me you would agree 12 is like way enough.

[africantigercow]

Originally Posted by metrosonus View Post
I think sends are rather pointless myself.. handy sometimes where you want less of an input signal or are trying to emulate a particular signal flow, but I think it's easier to use inserts and the wet/dry of the effect.

also try making groups of instruments you're routing to the same effect and put the effect on the group master.

Clearly you don't have one or two outboard fx boxes that you use on multiple tracks...

or care much about efficient cpu usage... (this is mattering less and less though...)

Or enjoy parallel compression...

or care that instead of having instant access to a send from your sequencer/mixer window that you now have to open each plugin window and adjust wet/dry...


Which is fine if it works for you...

It would drive me nuts though...

Inserts are useful when you want different fx on each track but I often find myself using the same (hardware) verb on many sources in varying amounts to put everything into one space (I normally end up using about three verbs, 1 or two choruses and a delay or two)...

Sends are also useful if you find that an effect is building up a bit much in a mix you can turn it down (or up) as a whole with one knob...

I also find it useful to be able to solo an aux and hear what the combined thing sounds like - means I can eq/compress/widen/narrow it as a whole if I need to as well. Inserts don't let you mess with just the wet part of the effect in a lot of ways like an aux does...

but damn... don't think ive ever ended up needing twelve sends...

[crufty]

Originally Posted by Touchmaster

what the hell is wrong with you people ?

free your mind!

on a computer you can have a document that is infinitely wide and infinitely long

the only boundary is storage to save it and cpu to process it.

why should any DAW limit your track count, send count, plugin count. why should a DAW force someone to change what they want to dol--why shouldn't someone use a DAW the way they want to? the value of computers is their automation and immense calculation capabilities. artificial limitations are a holdover from a more limited era.

Ableton has a vertical scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely long. And Ableton has a horizontal scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely wide.

internally there are probably technical challenges. sure.

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by crufty

free your mind!

on a computer you can have a document that is infinitely wide and infinitely long

the only boundary is storage to save it and cpu to process it.

why should any DAW limit your track count, send count, plugin count. why should a DAW force someone to change what they want to dol--why shouldn't someone use a DAW the way they want to? the value of computers is their automation and immense calculation capabilities. artificial limitations are a holdover from a more limited era.

Ableton has a vertical scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely long. And Ableton has a horizontal scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely wide.

internally there are probably technical challenges. sure.

In fact this is true. But on the other hand a few years ago things were
much more complicated than now. We complain at a very high level these days.
There are solutions to get around a 'limitation' as it used to be back when we
had cables only...not virtual routings.
Finding them and making it happen is 'mind-freeing' imho.

[Touchmaster]

If you were that desperate to do it, and had a very good reason rather than just overcomplicating things , you could presumably just duplicate the channel (I dont use ableton)?

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by Touchmaster

If you were that desperate to do it, and had a very good reason rather than just overcomplicating things , you could presumably just duplicate the channel (I dont use ableton)?

This would be the traditional approach I guess

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by crufty

free your mind!

on a computer you can have a document that is infinitely wide and infinitely long

Up to a certain point.

I am reminded of a post on Slashdot, where someone lamented that the new MySQL version that was announced "only" had 4096 columns. Turns out he was using columns as rows, and rows as... well, I don't want to know.

internally there are probably technical challenges. sure.

While Live already doesn't care how many inserts you put there, I think the way how sends work is that you eventually get an unexcusable delay. Of course, rendering to disk wouldn't matter, but if you have to process a track through every send you have to wait until all operations for that sample window are ended. With the number of channels being effectively unlimited I can imagine that they thought "well, nobody's going to need that many sends".

But we don't have truly modular DAW environments yet, I think - consider feedback. If you send the effected output of a pitchshifter to a reverb and feed that back into the input - can you make such a construction in any DAW?

[MoteOfVoid]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Up to a certain point.

I am reminded of a post on Slashdot, where someone lamented that the new MySQL version that was announced "only" had 4096 columns. Turns out he was using columns as rows, and rows as... well, I don't want to know.


While Live already doesn't care how many inserts you put there, I think the way how sends work is that you eventually get an unexcusable delay. Of course, rendering to disk wouldn't matter, but if you have to process a track through every send you have to wait until all operations for that sample window are ended. With the number of channels being effectively unlimited I can imagine that they thought "well, nobody's going to need that many sends".

But we don't have truly modular DAW environments yet, I think - consider feedback. If you send the effected output of a pitchshifter to a reverb and feed that back into the input - can you make such a construction in any DAW?

Yes you can do feedback loops. Ableton has got send knobs on the fx returns.
You need to activate them as they are switched off by default. Turn up the
send A on the A return and you can feed back. Be careful with phasing.
Or feed from A to B, a bit of delay and filtering and feed back to A.
Send from a track a short bit of sound and then ride the feedback.
It is possible to get some nice dub style effects but it sounds different from
doing the same with a console.
I think Cubase can do the same but I never tried.

Some article about Dub Mixing

[Yoozer]

Definitely going to check that out - thanks a lot .

[offki]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Definitely going to check that out - thanks a lot .

Pretty sure it can be done from withing a drum rack too.

[crufty]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Up to a certain point.

ideally...true and not true. i call it the "can we vs should we" constraint. it is as much a teaching mechanism as the other constraint, 'real'. in ssl land, mr techno has x sends. that is it. can he go higher? no. the send count is real--there is no way around it.

when it comes to sends, ideally, can we have an unlimited number? yes, at least here in crufty land. should we do that? no.

likewise with inserts, track counts, groups, groups in groups, etc.

now a real constraint for DAWS: audio output. if i only have left/right out, a daw should only allow me to pick from left/right out. it should not present me with more or less audio inputs or outputs then what i have. I'm not talking about virtual audio routing, but physical "to out" connections.

so while i agree 4096 cols is double facepalm fail--it really should have let the operator add a 4097th column.

While Live already doesn't care how many inserts you put there, I think the way how sends work is that you eventually get an unexcusable delay.

i think one thing about having many sends is not every send is going to get every audio output, practically.

and if it does, the delay can be computed and compensated. Whether or not it is acceptable shouldn't be up to Live, but the user.

in my mind, a send is nothing more then a bus, which live can already do.

in all honesty if i could put sends in groups and groups in groups, that would be way better then having unlimited sends.

[traumerei1838]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

...what



Humor me.

Use a reverb as send. Apply it on a synth line. Export the result to a wave file.

Now, use the reverb with exactly the same settings as an insert, and set the wet/dry in such a way that it's identical to the amount you used when using the reverb as a send. Export the result to a wave file.

Compare.

Chances are that what you call "better" is merely louder - because sends do not reduce the volume of the dry signal. They add the wet signal to the dry signal; the dry signal is not reduced in volume.

Really, try it.


Generally speaking sends allow you send a submix to an effect, and the effected signal is mixed back with the original.

A real drumkit has every drum in the same room. It's not like you have a snare in a cathedral and a hihat in a basement or something. If you have, you should use insert effects, not sends.

This is incorrect. Lexicon PCM and Brainworx VSC2 color your sound even in their default settings.

I would never use Lex as an insert even with dry/wet.

[crufty]

Originally Posted by MoteOfVoid

In fact this is true. But on the other hand a few years ago things were
much more complicated than now. We complain at a very high level these days.
There are solutions to get around a 'limitation' as it used to be back when we
had cables only...not virtual routings.
Finding them and making it happen is 'mind-freeing' imho.

yeah that is fair.

with sends..one could instead route X track audio outs to an audio track, then slap inserts on that audio track, maybe even a rack that controlled global wet/dry etc. it would in essence be a 13th send.

however...if one can do that after using 12 sends...why not allow a 13th send?

realistically, in crufty land, filled with rainbows and unicorns and care bears, a track should be audio, midi and plugin all at the same time, especially live where everything is clip based. and maybe it can be, i have only explored 1/10th of live's capabilities (having too much fun making music again).

complicated things should be easy; who knows what kind of music could be made by routing 24 tracks to 50 sends...maybe some far out ambient stuff. just because i can't think of it doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

[metrosonus]

Originally Posted by africantigercow

Clearly you don't have one or two outboard fx boxes that you use on multiple tracks...

or care much about efficient cpu usage... (this is mattering less and less though...)

Or enjoy parallel compression...

or care that instead of having instant access to a send from your sequencer/mixer window that you now have to open each plugin window and adjust wet/dry...


Which is fine if it works for you...

It would drive me nuts though...

Inserts are useful when you want different fx on each track but I often find myself using the same (hardware) verb on many sources in varying amounts to put everything into one space (I normally end up using about three verbs, 1 or two choruses and a delay or two)...

Sends are also useful if you find that an effect is building up a bit much in a mix you can turn it down (or up) as a whole with one knob...

I also find it useful to be able to solo an aux and hear what the combined thing sounds like - means I can eq/compress/widen/narrow it as a whole if I need to as well. Inserts don't let you mess with just the wet part of the effect in a lot of ways like an aux does...

but damn... don't think ive ever ended up needing twelve sends...

I don't know why you have to assume and insinuate so much when you clearly didn't read any of my further posts in the thread.

or care that instead of having instant access to a send from your sequencer/mixer window that you now have to open each plugin window and adjust wet/dry...

I really don't know what the issue here is when you can easily create effect racks, make maco knobs and also map anything you want.

And again, why do you assume to know how I feel?

[fooneyguy]

So it isn't the exactly the same as sends but you can route audio into empty audio tracks. You can choose where audio goes from out of an audio track, as well as where audio comes from into an audio track. If you're clever with your routing you might be able to get around the limitation of sends.

I used the idea for a live looping setup. I used one audio channel for all incoming audio and labeled it the BUS. The bus had monitoring set to "In". Then I set multiple channels to receive audio from the BUS channel. Those channels had monitoring turned "Off". This way incoming audio was only heard on the BUS. Then after audio was recorded onto the other channels you would hear the playback on that channel.

So you could have an empty channel with effects on it that receives audio from one of your active channels. You set monitoring to "In" on the empty channel that has an effect on it. That will give you the same doubling you get from a send.

If you really want to get crazy you can leave your send channels with no effects on them at all. You could then set up empty audio channels that receive their audio from the sends. You then put effects on your empty audio channels just like you would your sends.

The important part of all this is you can set your empty audio channels to receive audio "Pre effects" or "Pre Mixer" that way you can turn the volume of the send/preceding audio channel all the way down but you will still hear the audio on the receiving channel. You will then hear the original audio and the audio with effects on it, but not audio on the send channel.

Using this technique and a bit of cleverness you can set up as many effects/chains/faux sends as your processor can handle.

Let me know if want clarification on any of that.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by MrTechno

nah not really....
but I then then again i never complain about how limited my sends are also.
Happy with my limited sends on the console.

But seriously i think like me you would agree 12 is like way enough.

Didn't use to be. My learning years were on Soundtracs Jades and they have 12 auxes. Can't remember doing many mixes using less than all of them......but then you didn't have plugs then at all.

Still a big gain in having at least a few fx hanging off auxes, sent to by different things in the mix and then sent to each other judiciously for glue. Glue often missing in productions where most of the fx are only on the actual tracks, not shared.

I use logic, where you can have plenty sends, but hate that I can only SEE 8. I am happy with 12 now, but want to see them all at the same time.

[MrTechno]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Didn't use to be. My learning years were on Soundtracs Jades and they have 12 auxes. Can't remember doing many mixes using less than all of them......but then you didn't have plugs then at all.

Still a big gain in having at least a few fx hanging off auxes, sent to by different things in the mix and then sent to each other judiciously for glue. Glue often missing in productions where most of the fx are only on the actual tracks, not shared.

I use logic, where you can have plenty sends, but hate that I can only SEE 8. I am happy with 12 now, but want to see them all at the same time.

I use Logic also in combination with my desk, hybrid is the word thats used I think.

Logic is fantastic in terms of mixing. I remember seeing Logic for the first time 6 years ago and I thought if I have ever have to use a DAW it will be that.

I know what you mean about glueing, and you need FX on auxes, I could not mix with out them. However 5 or 6 and I am done, I certainly would not need 12. Inserts are great I find with certain effects whilst others just have no place for me on the insert.
I was mixing on the SSL Matrix the other day and it has only 2.

[edvedder]

Originally Posted by crufty

free your mind!

why should any DAW limit your track count, send count, plugin count. why should a DAW force someone to change what they want to dol--why shouldn't someone use a DAW the way they want to? the value of computers is their automation and immense calculation capabilities. artificial limitations are a holdover from a more limited era.

Ableton has a vertical scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely long. And Ableton has a horizontal scroll bar on the channel view, so channels can be infinitely wide.

internally there are probably technical challenges. sure.

thats what I was wondering myself.. it should be limitless just like midi channels and audio channels...