Dave Smith v. Dave Smith (a battle of "analog-ness")

[Carey M]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

B. Difference in materials used from old to now?

C. Difference in price-point/market and marketing needs from then to now?

These. All of the DSI synths use the PA397 synth-on-chip IC for the analogue part. It's a cheap circuit that has most of the analogue workings (waveshapers, mixer, VCF, VCA) integrated. It has enabled DSI to manufacture polyphonic analogues that don't break the bank. That IC is the "DSI sound" and they're stuck with it and the feature set, until they see fit to change to other IC (FPGAs?) or discrete designs.

I think it's clear that the PA397 sounds different from the olde CEM combos, not to mention the older SSM stuff. Using separate ICs for the VCOs, VCFs and VCAs meant that you had more flexibility in architecture and in the way the circuit sounds (hence OB-Xa and P5 sound a bit different, even though they use the same ICs). It also meant a bigger price tag.

So, er.. B and C!

- CM

[davidfuego]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Dude I hope you are joking. Did you see the Olympics open ceremony? I saw a Minimoog voyager, an andromeda and a lot of analog sound. Even a tribute to Vangelis.

[Rude Talk]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Blasphemy.... burn the witch

[milkbath]

Don't feed the troll.

[robwood]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

I'm a huge Dave Smith fan and have much of his gear, both old and new... there is definitely a difference in overall sound (not talking one product to another as much as I am an overall tonal shift from vintage to recent DSI). Do you think this sonic difference is from:

A. Just a shift in Dave's design and sonic aesthetic?
B. Difference in materials used from old to now?
C. Difference in price-point/market and marketing needs from then to now?
D. Another theory I'm not considering?
E. There is NO sonic difference between his vintage designs and most recent work.

I'll pick B and C and not A

a) I don't think the DSI aesthetic has changed much over the years.
b) Materials used to make synths have changed, mostly for the better imo.
c) The marketplace has changed. Synths used to be cool and cutting-edge technology... then computers came along.

[bobule]

i had a mint sixtrak and a pro-1 and seriously i would pick my mek pe anyday over either.

[offki]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Where do I get that "not sure if serious?" meme?

[verve92]

Seems to me analog and digital are both alive and well....or not.
Depending.
Boring argument.

[AikiGhost]

Originally Posted by ozy

T
The only problem with ITB is:

what will remain of The Box after Zionist mormon jazz gangsters delegitimize it?

Im rather partial to what Finnish garage yakuza have been doing with analog lfos myself...


I could play this game all week

[Buck09]

I think it all comes down to modern technology and what's available. I'm originally a sax guy, and this discussion has been the same amongst saxophonists as well. The majority of pro's still only play a selmer mark VI made in the 60's/70's and pay anywhere from 5,000-15,000 for one. The metal used to make the horns and the process of making them back then is a lot different than now. I have a sax from 1932 made from melted down WWI bombshells and no other sax has ever had the sonic palette of it ever since. I think the same is true for synths. It's been a few decades since the sequential circuits line was made, and things have changed quite a bit. I also read somewhere that Dave Smiths' intentions with DSI was not to recreate the greats like the prophet 5, but to create new additions to the synth market. I personally feel a prophet 5 sound should stay in a prophet 5, and the envelope should be pushed when it comes to new synths. Owning a polyevolver synth has been a dream of mine for quite a few years because I love it's sound and sonic palette and feel it is very unique. Unfortunately my gear addiction and impulsiveness has controlled my wallet and kept me from that dream so far, but soon I will have a PEK!

[zerocrossing]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

I'm a huge Dave Smith fan and have much of his gear, both old and new...

There is definately a difference in overall sound (not talking one product to another as much as I am an overall tonal shift from vintage to recent DSI):


Do you think this sonic difference is from:


A. Just a shift in Dave's design and sonic aesthetic?

B. Difference in materials used from old to now?

C. Difference in price-point/market and marketing needs from then to now?

D. Another theory I'm not considering?

E. I'm crazy and there is NO sonic difference from his vintage designs and his most recent DSI work.


(NOTE: This is not a "better" thread, so please none of that. This thread is focusing on, well, all the above)

@ Dave, Pym or anyone at DSI, please feel free to jump on in, your expertise would be a HUGE contribution to the thread!

Discuss.

Andrews

Yes
Yes
Yes
Maybe

[marcgood]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Any tool is as good as the person using it. Maybe you just aren't that good?

[GJ999x]

Originally Posted by marcgood

Any tool is as good as the person using it. Maybe you just aren't that good?

I'm better at making silly jokes (/'trolling') than I am at using my gear to make great mixes, for sure - apologies for the trolling I had hoped it was too obvious to be seen as such... and I now know who Dave Smith is (I've raved about midi for years too )

I normally say "Amateur commenting, just my 2c" but I think that's pretty obvious in this case!..

[soundsubs]

this is a good thread. i too love DSI products, new and old. obviously a dco will be perfect time and again, and the "drift/sloppiness" that they build in is a good emulator of that. still, synths start with oscillators, and a digitally stabilized one will no doubt be more "perfect" than its voltage controlled counterpart.

i would say we need to also consider:
-opamps and quality/price thereof. I cant find it now, but i remember a manufacturer (roland? korg?) saying that opamp "quality" has risen dramatically in the last 20 years. that could be it.
-vca technology. in a vintage minimoog, i also remember a tech talking about there being "2 cheap vca's in series which has a lot to do with the nature of the sound" so there could be something there too.
-power supply and quality/price thereof. i think this is often overlooked, since power is required for ALL of these vintage/beasts. i would guess that todays power supplies have lower fluctuations and more protection ie "better" performance, but that might do something to the sound. note that in the guitar pedal world people regularly starve pedals for a different tones.

i've never seen it, but it is theoretically possible to source NOS parts and build some of these analog synths part for part. since they too have aged, we could compare.

[marcgood]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

I'm better at making silly jokes (/'trolling') than I am at using my gear to make great mixes, for sure - apologies for the trolling I had hoped it was too obvious to be seen as such... and I now know who Dave Smith is (I've raved about midi for years too )

I normally say "Amateur commenting, just my 2c" but I think that's pretty obvious in this case!..

No worries.

OT - I have not used any DSI stuff, but I'm planning a Tempest for myself next year. I love the sound and potential from all I've seen in videos.

Also, prior to this year I was strickly software. But after picking up a few inexpensive analog pieces I'd say I am absolutely hooked on gear. My Minibrute arrives next week. And my Tempest fund is halfway to being full.

[verve92]

Originally Posted by marcgood

No worries.

OT - I have not used any DSI stuff, but I'm planning a Tempest for myself next year. I love the sound and potential from all I've seen in videos.

Also, prior to this year I was strickly software. But after picking up a few inexpensive analog pieces I'd say I am absolutely hooked on gear. My Minibrute arrives next week. And my Tempest fund is halfway to being full.

Ain't GAS grande. None of the stuff in my rig would be bought by a responsible normal person!
I am convinced I will not get my brute before X-mas.

[Detlev]

semi off topic

A lot of DSI at the twin shadow show in SF tonight.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

thats like saying using your brain is dead..time to move on.
and who is swedish house mafia? songs for the drunk and the poor?

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Carey M

These. All of the DSI synths use the PA397 synth-on-chip IC for the analogue part. It's a cheap circuit that has most of the analogue workings (waveshapers, mixer, VCF, VCA) integrated. It has enabled DSI to manufacture polyphonic analogues that don't break the bank. That IC is the "DSI sound" and they're stuck with it and the feature set, until they see fit to change to other IC (FPGAs?) or discrete designs.

I think it's clear that the PA397 sounds different from the olde CEM combos, not to mention the older SSM stuff. Using separate ICs for the VCOs, VCFs and VCAs meant that you had more flexibility in architecture and in the way the circuit sounds (hence OB-Xa and P5 sound a bit different, even though they use the same ICs). It also meant a bigger price tag.

So, er.. B and C!

- CM

also the smd output stages add to the more sterile sonic character..and the enevlopes are not analoge anymore.. so any note/voice has the same envelope and therefore less separation between the notes/voices resulting in a more sterile sound..thats of cause a price issue..multiple analoge envelopes per voice would be pretty expensive to realise.

[Steve Morley]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Analog is not dead, it is more alive then 10 years ago and kicking hard And how much most producers might work 'mostly' in the box, many of them are using analog synths! They just record them into their DAW.

SHM is technically not all in the box either, they have mixed their singles in a well known London studio on an analog desk

No idea what Bieber's team is doing, but it sounds pretty crap IMO...

Anyways Dave Smith is a well respected Synthesizer designer who became know with Sequential Circuits and now the Dave Smith Instruments name. Besides that he is revered to as the 'father' of MIDI and have worked on several other synths like the Korg Wavestation

[GJ999x]

Originally Posted by audioconsult

thats like saying using your brain is dead..time to move on.
and who is swedish house mafia? songs for the drunk and the poor?

Touche my friend but i would suggest reading the thread

G

[GJ999x]

Originally Posted by marcgood

Any tool is as good as the person using it. Maybe you just aren't that good?

What is that fighting talk? :D

I'd say i'm in the ballpark of good, as a musician and amateur producer, either way i'm definatley having a LOT of fun

MusicWithMyFriends's Spotlight page on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[BM0]

Originally Posted by ozy

True.

And not just that:

Egyptian muslim brotherhood brass bands totally killed analogue compressors,

and nobody cares about standalone reverb units anymore, after what Expatriate chinese triads barbershop quartets did to them.

The only problem with ITB is:

what will remain of The Box after Zionist mormon jazz gangsters delegitimize it?

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

[MrTechno]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Well i dont know who dave smith is. But analog is dead, it's all about ITB. Just look at what swedish house mafia are doing. and beiber. It's time to move on.

Ha ha ha you have to be kidding.
Please
Never
Analog and hardware first worry about the rest later.

[kraku]

I actually touched this subject with one of my blog entries last year:

Aflecht / Kraku Music Blog: Technological Idea: DCO that emulates a VCO

I've noticed that DSI's modern DCOs are so super precise that they have this "glassy" sound to them. Not sure how fast the DCO is updated but I would imagine the speed is more than 44.1KHz since I haven't heard that sound with ITB synths.

The remedy for this would be to introduce random errors to the oscillator cycle times.

[verve92]

Originally Posted by kraku

The remedy for this would be to introduce random errors to the oscillator cycle times.

Is this how oscillator slop is done in DSI synths? Pretty effective, IMO.
If not, if it was that simple how would it be implemented?

[kraku]

AFAIK oscillator slop in DSI synths is just a slow LFO or so. It has nothing to do with the cycle jittering.

The easiest way to implement it would be to add small random timing error to each oscillator cycle length. Even better way is described in the blog entry in my previous post

[marcgood]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

What is that fighting talk? :D

I'd say i'm in the ballpark of good, as a musician and amateur producer, either way i'm definatley having a LOT of fun

MusicWithMyFriends's Spotlight page on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

I'd say better than good.

In fact, good enough to buy.

[GJ999x]

Originally Posted by marcgood

I'd say better than good.

In fact, good enough to buy.

Thanks my friend that means a huge amount. If you like drum and bass with crazy rap poetry duet (inc. an awesome female poet from Atlanta) then stay tuned.

Though I should add it's my initial dumbass post on this thread that getting me all of the somewhat well-earned abuse it was a JOKE guys i'm sorry for playing. I'll apologise to Dave Smith too as soon as he shows up.