Analog gain staging?

[Jordan15]

bump

[golden beers]

Sorry this is not an answer to your question.
Just wanted to say that not all mixers are created equal and that mackie is not so great for mixdown. I would use it for sub-mix or in a live rig or some other utility.

Hate to say it, but if youre looking for a mixer to actually mix down on, this mackie is a waste of money compared to mixing ITB

ps U stands for Unity. the signal you put in will = the signal that comes out, pre fader.

EDIT: PPS there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that mackie, it's a fine desk for the money. My point is simply that it is not as good as what you already have in software.

[minusdb]

The VLZ3 is still available for retail. I suggest you rent it from L&M and try it out and see if you like it.

Lifelike does what you're describing through the same mixer (check out the futuremusic vid); same with Alan Braxe (futuremusic vid) -- depends on what sound you're going after. I think they also use an Alesis 3630 on their main bus to get that pumping sound without sidechain compression -- just low EQ gain on the kick does this.

I picked up a used 1202 VLZ and 3630 precisely for trying this out.

Some DnB guys play 909 kicks through older Mackie boards (pre VLZ I believe) to get an overdriven distortion sound that they then resample and layer with other kicks. Saw it in a vid can't remember who the two dudes were nor which vid. Very cool sound though.

Some people swear by the Mackie and some people hate em.

[Teknobeam]

A mixer for better coloration" what is that ? Are you recording live instruments or hardware synths? Unless you are doing any of that, then I'd concentrate on creative content. IN or out of the box is irrelevant. Maybe I should change my name to Mr. Cynical.

[golden beers]

BTW the way i was taught to mix down regarding levels on a mixer was to have each channel individually peaking at maximum -4 and have the total mix peak at 0. Also to not have the master fader at max, but to leave the fader around the -2 level, so that if your mix ended up to low you had an extra 2db available.

This was all set up to get a reasonable RMS level and maximum peak level. Because back then you had to go into the recording medium at the highest possible level. Today with 24bit recording, you don't need to do that.

Still the -4 per channel and 0 on the sum is a good guide for analogue mixing. Others will tell you differently as there are no rules. Only guidelines.

[MoteOfVoid]

This is a very long but very good thread with a lot of great contributions
about gain staging. Just start reading and ignore the rants and the flaming
in between...there are some good explanations about analog reference levels
and how the relate to the digital world.

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)

[Jordan15]

Originally Posted by minusdb

The VLZ3 is still available for retail. I suggest you rent it from L&M and try it out and see if you like it.

Lifelike does what you're describing through the same mixer (check out the futuremusic vid); same with Alan Braxe (futuremusic vid) -- depends on what sound you're going after. I think they also use an Alesis 3630 on their main bus to get that pumping sound without sidechain compression -- just low EQ gain on the kick does this.

I picked up a used 1202 VLZ and 3630 precisely for trying this out.

Some DnB guys play 909 kicks through older Mackie boards (pre VLZ I believe) to get an overdriven distortion sound that they then resample and layer with other kicks. Saw it in a vid can't remember who the two dudes were nor which vid. Very cool sound though.

Some people swear by the Mackie and some people hate em.

How did you find the 1202 and 3630 combo?
I don't think I'll be needing a 3630, but the fact that house producers seem to use the 1202 makes me think there must be something there.



Ideally I want my mixes to sound like this Xtrafunk - Lazy Sunday - YouTube I know this comes with skill, but things sound like they're on entirely different planes of the stereo field (my biggest issue, having something like popping out in front of another sound). No matter how much eq and levelling I do it always just feels like 2 pieces of paper beside each other, rather than a piece of paper floating over top the other one.

This could be ITB for all I know, but it sounds a little gritty to me and I like it. Was hoping maybe a hardware mixer would be the first step to getting a little dirtier.

[Say Again]

Personally knowing some of the people Xtrafunk has worked with in the past - I am guessing he is nearly 100% ITB muinus maybe a few synths and such. I could be wrong as I don't really know much about him directly, but the company he keeps is pretty ITB...

That being said - I think the "coloration" of the Mackie boards is far more pronounced in the CR series not the VLZ. But I don't think the sort of coloration we are talking about is really what you are looking for.

The CR series is going to be very low fi and gritty. Great for some styles like lofi deep house and techno. But not so good for music with a "smooth" sheen to it.

Here is the example someone above referenced of dnb guys abusing the CR series to get some extreme distortion. This is a far extreme example but pushing that board into the red def has a pretty aggressive sound to it.

Fracture & Neptune Part Two - YouTube

[minusdb]

Yes, that Fracture and Neptune vid is the one. Thanks.

Just got the 1202 a few days ago. Haven't tried the 1202 3630 combo yet. Just the 3630 with a Soundcraft and a 1642 mixer but I don't suppose it'll be that much different from the 1642 combo.

The 3630 definitely adds dirt but it can also degrade the signal quite easily. You gotta play around with it to find the sweet spot.

I think the stereo field has more to do with proper mixing techniques, eq and panning as well as subtle fx (ex. chorus) than using a mixer ITB/OTB. Panning is often overlooked.

[Reptil]

If you want to explore OTB gain staging to add to your mixing arsenal; I'd recommend the following:
- A high headroom mixbus. This can be a desk or a summing mixer
example: Speck X Sum
- at least two (stereo) line amps, preferrably with transformers, with some hands on control (fader, knob)
- a matrix to combine various converter outputs, hardware sources, and of course the amp stages above; obvious example is a patchbay

if you really want to get out and "do it" get a stereo pair of mics, and mic amps and use that to re-amp (record your monitor speakers in the room, or some daft but stomping guitar amp) Added functionality is of course you can use this part to make location recordings.

A good quality "inline" desk would also cover points 1 and 2, and give you mic amps to boot.
But never settle for a low headroom mixer, if you want BETTER, as said, ITB gives you more quality (more headroom).
That said, if you go for "dirt" then the 1202 and 3630 combo will deliver.
A combination of this outboard mix situation and a DAW with good converters will give you the best of both worlds. Very flexible.

[top dog]

Originally Posted by Reptil

If you want to explore OTB gain staging to add to your mixing arsenal; I'd recommend the following:
- A high headroom mixbus. This can be a desk or a summing mixer
example: Speck X Sum

What non expensive mixers can you recommend besides summing mixers? Soundcraft Delta or Spirit Studio 24 will be better than cheap modern mixers, or difference will be subtle? Any other models from past and present?
Thanks!

[Reptil]

Hmmm cheap yet good?
There's a number of older mixers now selling for giveaway prices. This has been discussed before. Yes, Soundcraft comes to mind. I had a Sony MX-P21 that was great for character (a little noisy) etc. Browse Craigslist, or any local stores. People go for "blinkenlights" and "shiney new", instead of old and bland looking but professional gear. Also have a look at broadcast mixers. Often small (6 or 8 channels and 2 aux and one master group) but high quality. Research how much these sold for, when they were new, and what ppl. used these, this will give you an indication of the quality.
Yes, those Soundcraft will have better quality circuit boards, components, etc. But don't buy a beat up one, it can easily turn into a money pit if you have to replace ALL the pots, and DO calculate that you may have to do maintenance and perhaps recapping if they're older than.. say.. 15 years. (there are exceptions) Of course you can get lucky and score a nice old professional desk cheap.
Happy hunting!

[glotus]

Picking up a sountracs solo midi this arvo. hoping for no crackly pots.

Anyway, Noobish question here:

some Fx units have a switch that says +4 or -10 db on the back. but it can be set in either position and the input knob can be turned to get levels, so,

If Im running a synth out into the fx unit whats the best config?

Eg, synth switch set to high and volume right up, with +4 set on the fx unit? or some other config?

I never fully understood this have always just adjusted the input knob to get levels that looked about right.

GL.