Madeon's Mixing and Stereo Imaging

[Myrok Rolles]

I'd like some insight on this as well, it seems to be a very specific production technique that I can't put my finger on. Anybody know the steps to getting this really nice diamond shaped stereo image?

[lohacker]

Maybe are just starting samples he's using that have a nice stereo effect from the start. Then treating the mix with a multiband comp emphasize the wide sound overall.

[teknatronik]

i thought the core meter being in red was phase issues?

[vivid435]

Originally Posted by teknatronik

i thought the core meter being in red was phase issues?

red on the correlation meter is phase issues but as you can see from the image, the correlation is in the blue.

[teknatronik]

Originally Posted by vivid435

red on the correlation meter is phase issues but as you can see from the image, the correlation is in the blue.

good point, i was analyzing my tunes and they seem to be more mono, i am inetesred in how he is acheiving this.

[MP3Player]

Can somebody just call up Madeon already.

[robkramble]

Having a clear stereo image at mixdown allows for a truly wide one during mastering. Don't overstep your bounds on this one, you'll fail 99% of the time.

Plus doesn't he sample pop music or some shit? That stuff's already mastered to be wide and huge.

[teknatronik]

Originally Posted by robkramble

Having a clear stereo image at mixdown allows for a truly wide one during mastering. Don't overstep your bounds on this one, you'll fail 99% of the time.

Plus doesn't he sample pop music or some shit? That stuff's already mastered to be wide and huge.

what is the technique to achieve this though? I mean I do my best and my songs sound just fine... I have never seen an image like this... very curious!

[louis.lbnc]

Originally Posted by robkramble

Having a clear stereo image at mixdown allows for a truly wide one during mastering. Don't overstep your bounds on this one, you'll fail 99% of the time.

Plus doesn't he sample pop music or some shit? That stuff's already mastered to be wide and huge.

Not sure if true but he states on a Q&A on his facebook page that he samples live instruments, not released songs. What I think is happening is compression on his pad/strings after going through a reverb and it's a loud element in the songs so the goniometer picks up on that. To me that's the only thing that sound particularly wide in his songs. The rest actually sounds very centered.

[BT Mastering]

first of all you need to do a good mix, panning instruments and add reverbs and stereo enhancers where needed..

Then you have to do an "MS mastering"..
"MS tecnique" (Mid-Side) is often used to obtain "wide masters", it also help to fix a lot of problems on songs.
But remember, you have to do it carefully or you may risk to ruin the sound of the track..

So you can try yourself, if you don't like the result you can send your track to an experienced mastering engineer..
"Online Mastering" prices are affordable to everyone..

hope this helps

-Francis-

[Spip]

Maybe no need for an experienced mastering engineer here

Just put whatever plug-in with MS feature like T-Racks3 or Ozone or .... and turn the knobs to the max.

[Steezy]

Not sure if this is much help, but in the stereo imaging portion of Ozone 5 the Lissajous vectorscope view shows something very similar.

That said, I couldn't get that diamond ish look to show up post bounce in logic's multimeter.

[BT Mastering]

Originally Posted by Spip

Maybe no need for an experienced mastering engineer here

Just put whatever plug-in with MS feature like T-Racks3 or Ozone or .... and turn the knobs to the max.

Ozone is a nice plugin but not a "magical box"..Anyway if you turn knobs to max you will exceed the "Side" and generate phase problems..result bad sound..
So "do it carefully"

cheers

[dr_Jezz]

I just whacked up the M/S on a demo I have up in logic now - you can get as wide as you like (given phase issues), but I'm not sure how the pefect diamond came about, but then this took 10 seconds to do. I'll have a play. That guy does great and very detailed production.

Edit - that diamond looks spookily accurate - he must be using some tool or other - I wonder if it's Mathew Lane Dr MS - haven't tried it yet (I'm still on old 10.5.8!)?

[Elvis Gotta Gun]

It's just the traditional techniques used to make things wider: reverb, chorus, stereo delays, detune, eq difference,etc.

Primarily good sound design, selection and mixing.

Doubt M/S technique factors into it but it's possible.


I was curious though so I loaded up Madeon's Icarus and it gave me this:



Then I threw in a loop of my own and it gave me this:



Relatively close so I don't think he's employing any special/unique processing.

I've never even used a gionometer before though so I've gotta learn more about this now.

[Elvis Gotta Gun]

Also, I checked some other tracks I enjoy. One of them wasn't close to a perfect diamond at all. Sides were chopped off and the edges were considerably rougher.

Does that make it less worthy/enjoyable? Not really.

[Karloff70]

Understanding a Vectorscope 'Diamond/Square'

Seems you're brickwalling your shit bigtime like Madeon, Elvis.......I see now why you need more than 15 plugins on a bus.

[Elvis Gotta Gun]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Understanding a Vectorscope 'Diamond/Square'

Seems you're brickwalling your shit bigtime like Madeon, Elvis.......I see now why you need more than 15 plugins on a bus.

Of course. Who doesn't?


Logic imposing a 15 plug-in limit per track is arbitrary though.

If I have a track filled to capacity it doesn't necessarily mean all the plug-ins are active at one time. If you're processing one track/sound/sample in a variety of ways I don't want to have to move/delete plug-ins to accomplish that.

But if I want to use 40 plugins to make an interesting sound then so what?

I seem to get these snarky/snobby responses like 'get better plug-ins' etc.

It's sad that it blows some people's (narrow) minds that someone could desire to use 15+ plugins on a track.

It's a guarantee that the kids/creative minds who push things forward in electronic music and sound design don't limit themselves in that way.

/tangent

Oh and thanks for the link Karloff.

[dr_Jezz]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Understanding a Vectorscope 'Diamond/Square'

Seems you're brickwalling your shit bigtime like Madeon, Elvis.......I see now why you need more than 15 plugins on a bus.

Ahhh - thanks for that - makes sense.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun

Of course. Who doesn't?


Logic imposing a 15 plug-in limit per track is arbitrary though.

If I have a track filled to capacity it doesn't necessarily mean all the plug-ins are active at one time. If you're processing one track/sound/sample in a variety of ways I don't want to have to move/delete plug-ins to accomplish that.

But if I want to use 40 plugins to make an interesting sound then so what?

I seem to get these snarky/snobby responses like 'get better plug-ins' etc.

It's sad that it blows some people's (narrow) minds that someone could desire to use 15+ plugins on a track.

It's a guarantee that the kids/creative minds who push things forward in electronic music and sound design don't limit themselves in that way.

/tangent

Oh and thanks for the link Karloff.

For sound design is one thing, but even then I don't see 15 personally and in mixing it just sounds like slaughter to me, but hey, horses for courses. Just that too many plugs tend to become a 'win some loose some' situation real quick, assuming you start with a nice signal.

Do as you please man but narrow my mind is not, only has different experiences and hence conclusions in it to yours is all.

[Myrok Rolles]

This turned out to be a decent thread. Some good info here.

[MP3Player]

Indeed! Let's keep it rolling. I'm still not in full understanding. After reading up and applying it myself, I've summed it up basically to the idea that wide the right stereo width, any sound/instrument can achieve a diamond image in the vectorscope. The only problem I encountered was that this technique destroyed the quality of the music via distortion/clipping. I am surely doing something wrong because Madeon's sounds are crystal clear. Anyone know what I am doing wrong/not doing?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by MP3Player

Indeed! Let's keep it rolling. I'm still not in full understanding. After reading up and applying it myself, I've summed it up basically to the idea that wide the right stereo width, any sound/instrument can achieve a diamond image in the vectorscope. The only problem I encountered was that this technique destroyed the quality of the music via distortion/clipping. I am surely doing something wrong because Madeon's sounds are crystal clear. Anyone know what I am doing wrong/not doing?

Doing your clipping in a less sophisticated way or with cheaper tools? You don't necessarily hear clipping a lot or at all if done well with good gear.

[msl]

Originally Posted by MP3Player

The only problem I encountered was that this technique destroyed the quality of the music via distortion/clipping.

Really, and that surprises you

See Karloff's link, says it all.


.

[Filthrill]

About using lots of plugin sometimes, someone once told me that the more plugins u use in a session the thinner & phasy-ier the sound gets. Never seen or heard any proof of this but it's always in back of my mind when mixing. I always ask myself "is there anything I can take off & still live w/ the mix? Still I end up w/ a shload of plugins anyway..

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Gearslutz App

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Filthrill

About using lots of plugin sometimes, someone once told me that the more plugins u use in a session the thinner & phasy-ier the sound gets. Never seen or heard any proof of this but it's always in back of my mind when mixing. I always ask myself "is there anything I can take off & still live w/ the mix? Still I end up w/ a shload of plugins anyway..

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Gearslutz App

Every plug deployed has a cost and if you're doing it/choosing it right, a gain. Making sure the gain stays bigger than the cost gets trickier with shitloads of the things. Unless your original signal is raped to begin with I suppose, in which case it's just about what contortion of raped you prefer and not much to loose.

[Elvis Gotta Gun]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Doing your clipping in a less sophisticated way or with cheaper tools? You don't necessarily hear clipping a lot or at all if done well with good gear.

Funny thing is, Madeon's tracks (at least Icarus and many of the earlier notables) are exported straight from FL Studio using just a load of plug-ins for sound sources, fx and dynamics. And mixed using M-audio BX8s.

Probably not what you'd deem as 'good gear'.

[MP3Player]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Doing your clipping in a less sophisticated way or with cheaper tools? You don't necessarily hear clipping a lot or at all if done well with good gear.

I was clipping in box. Perhaps it was a less sophisticated way being that I've never done it before--in fact steered away from it. I was experimenting with the compression ratio and threshold to get it. Corrections?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun

Funny thing is, Madeon's tracks (at least Icarus and many of the earlier notables) are exported straight from FL Studio using just a load of plug-ins for sound sources, fx and dynamics. And mixed using M-audio BX8s.

Probably not what you'd deem as 'good gear'.

So its not good gear and only in a more sophisticated way. Or more likely the 'forgiving 32 bit float set to kill'-way....

Try just laying into your mix bus like a fool and burn it up and bounce that and you'll likely get it.