So, I currently use Logic for all production and Traktor for DJing. It's been like this for years for me. I am not interested in Live at all for its live features or session view and will no doubt continue to use Traktor for it's traditional on-the-fly DJing features since I like keeping things open ended and not really planning sets ahead of time. I'm also not into automatically syncing everything.
Taking this into consideration, I would like to talk about Live strictly as a production tool. I hear people say that Live's workflow is great. Can I get some NON-biased feedback on how Live's workflow is actually so great, especially in comparison to Logic?
What would Live really offer me differently compared to working with Logic for production?
To people that use the two programs together, why do you do this and why is it actually better than just doing it in one program work flow wise?
By any chance has anyone made any comparison videos?
I use it with a launchpad and maschine, it becomes like another instrument, when i control the fx parameters from an ipad i almost never look at the monitor...no other DAW feels like that, i have pro tools and studio one too
Once i get some ideas with jamming i just stick it in the arrangement view and it becomes a regular DAW
Can I get some NON-biased feedback on how Live's workflow is actually so great, especially in comparison to Logic?
No, everyone's going to be biased .
I used Cubase SX for a few years and what irked me was how much the software didn't like it if you just wanted to start making music; ideally you first configure an entire template and set up your audio interface, and with Live, I don't have all that crap. I found it a lot easier to set up the audio interface as well. You can just drag and drop virtual instruments in the arrangement window directly and they turn into new tracks. I could just drag and drop insert effects in any given order in Live, couldn't do that in Cubase. Assigning MIDI controllers is a -lot- easier in Live as well, IMHO. Instead of dragging around windows all the time, I only have to deal with the plugin windows and those show/hide based on which track I've currently got enabled.
Quote:
What would Live really offer me differently compared to working with Logic for production?
If you don't use Session mode, probably not much.
Live's price is steep. Its included instruments are (except for a few) not that great; you're better off with Logic.
Ableton does however offer a 30-day trial with saving enabled, so why not give that a try?
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I've used both programs for years, and I have ended up using Live almost exclusively because it's so much simpler and more elegant an interface. I don't have to think about the program much when using it. It lacks the myriad specialized commands of Logic; it's more like Legos, where you build what you want from the building blocks, or accomplish things by simpler steps. It's certainly not for everyone. Their trial and demo modes are great, so it's easy to check out.
Session view is good for writing and arranging too. Yo can just very quickly compare ideas, try out how different melodies work together etc., it's not just for live purposes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ep1c0ne
So, I currently use Logic for all production and Traktor for DJing. It's been like this for years for me. I am not interested in Live at all for its live features or session view and will no doubt continue to use Traktor for it's traditional on-the-fly DJing features since I like keeping things open ended and not really planning sets ahead of time. I'm also not into automatically syncing everything.
Taking this into consideration, I would like to talk about Live strictly as a production tool. I hear people say that Live's workflow is great. Can I get some NON-biased feedback on how Live's workflow is actually so great, especially in comparison to Logic?
What would Live really offer me differently compared to working with Logic for production?
To people that use the two programs together, why do you do this and why is it actually better than just doing it in one program work flow wise?
By any chance has anyone made any comparison videos?
I used Logic for 5 years before switching to Live earlier this year. I had always used Live for mixed sets and such since version 4, but this year is when i decided to use it for production duties as well.
To make it easy, I'll list out some of the reasons.
Why I like Live better:
Audio: This is one of the most compelling reasons to use Live. Live's audio is miles ahead of Logic in terms of intuitiveness and ability to map out segments to fixed or variable tempos. Only recently did Logic offer a way to "map" audio for time stretching and such, but Live's way of doing it is much more mature. Working with audio in Logic was a pain if I have to do any manipulation, but in Live its super-super easy. In fact, for a while there, a lot of Logic users were working with their audio in Live, then bouncing or rewiring out to Logic. I still know a few that do this.
Session View: The whole "clip based" way of working is perfect for starting things out. Once you figure it out, it totally changes things for you. For those of us who like to work by getting a "loop" going first, this is a totally intuitive way of getting ideas down and working out basic arrangement ideas. You can just sort of "jam" and get an idea up and running, test out ideas and arrangements using clips and scenes. Then once you are ready to move to arrangement, its super easy to just copy what you need (or record). I've never used anything like it.
Instrument Racks: Allows you to group instruments and assign controllers to various parameters. How many times has you wanted a way to control two or more instruments with one MIDI clip? On most other DAWs, you have to duplicate the entire MIDI track, along with any plugins and such. Instrument Racks allow you to control multiple instruments with 1 MIDI track. Another advantage is when you are working on a track and want to try out a different instrument. Lets say I have a bass playing using Sylenth, and I decide I'd like to try out Massive on that same track instead of Sylenth. Instead of having to duplicate the entire track, I can just group it, add Massive, then turn off Sylenth. Sylenth is still there, just disabled. If I decide I don't like it, I can turn off Massive, and reactivate Sylenth or just remove it from the group totally. Or I can keep both on there! So easy. No other DAW offers this AFAIK. Also, you can nest these things, so you can have an instrument rack inside another instrument rack. Very handy.
Drum Racks: Lives Drum Racks make life so easy when putting together drum parts. Basically operates like an MPC, but uses Live's built in sampler (Simpler), so you get all the features of the built in sampler but inside an MPC style interface. They also support nesting, so, for example, when I have a clap assigned to a drum pad, and I decide I want to add a snare underneath it, I dont have to duplicate the pad and all the settings, just pop in an Instrument rack (by simply right-clicking and hitting "group"), and bam, I have two samplers being controlled by one pad. Sure, other 3rd party VST's offer this functionality (Battery), but with Live its included.
Modularness. I know that isn't a word, but I don't know how else to put it. Everything in Live is very modular, in that you can sort of build these instruments using any combination of MIDI and audio plugins, and then save them off for future use. Want to build a 1 finger chord player? No problem, just add an instrument, add a Chord MIDI plugin, add an Arpgeggiator MIDI plugin, add a pitch MIDI plugin to pitch it down a few, add a Scale MIDI plugin to keep it in scale, then after the instrument add a compressor, EQ, Reverb, delay, etc. Then group it all together into a big instrument rack, assign some parameters to one or more of the 8 Instrument Rack knob controllers, then save it off for future use. So easy, and so useful.
Plugins: The built in plugins are pretty good. Not great, but good. You can certainly do what you need without any 3rd party plugins. I use the compressor exclusively, its really good, and the delays are really useful. The EQ is probably my least favorite, only because the window is small and you cant adjust the slope of the hi/lo pass without some fiddling. Not a deal breaker, but I use my UAD Cambridge EQ more than the Live EQ Eight.
Cross platform: This is one of the biggest pluses to Live over Logic. I have both PC's and Macs, and while the majority of my work is done on the Mac, its part of my "big" studio, so when I want to work, I have to fire everything up and that takes a few minutes. I have a PC that I use for general computing use, and I'll keep a copy of Live open on there with a tiny 25 key keyboard for general inspiration. That way, if inspiration suddenly strikes, I can just jam out a riff really quick, flesh it out a bit, then transfer it to the Mac. Very nice.
Also, this means I am not completely tied to the Apple platform. I'm a total Mac lover and I would always prefer to use it for serious studio work. However, if Apple ever goes the way of the dodo or totally abandons the professional market (don't laugh, check out the Final Cut Pro X debacle), then I at least have options. I could work on PC if I HAD to, and I like having that option.
Things I don't like:
Poor MIDI CC support. While it is super easy to integrate outboard hardware using the External Instrument and External Audio Effect plugins (you can even set the latency, I/O and save it all of in a reusable plugin), automating them is kind of a pain the ass. You can only send MIDI CC messages at the "clip" level, so MIDI CC is not treated like VST automation. I would prefer it if I could use the Automation Lanes to send MIDI C just as if I was automating the Frequency cutoff of a VST synth or the Delay time of a Delay plugin. There is a Max4Live instrument that allows this, but I have a hard time paying an extra $250 for functionality that should already be there. Not a huge deal, but annoying.
No Solo Safe. Again, not a huge deal, but I would like to have it since I do a fair bit of external routing for monitoring and such.
No transient shaper built in. I would like a "Envelope Follower" type plugin like Logics. Logic also has a few other utility plugins that came in handy from time to time that arent present in Live, but I cant remember them off the top of my head, so they arent that important to me. Again, minor gripe.
No audio editing. Again, not a big deal to me, but there is no deep audio editing built into Live. Never really needed it, but Logic definitely has more of these features than Live, not that I have ever really missed it in Live. That's what Sound Forge is for.
Anyway, I could probably list a dozen more, but you get the idea. Frankly, just get a copy of the Lite version or Intro and try it out. Give it a serious try, and decide for yourself. I know a lot of Logic users that did what I did and switched without looking back. The only way to know for sure it to try it out for yourself.
Don't think anyone mentioned how insanely flexible the routing is either.
One of it's best features is that you simply drag existing tracks (with all clips,vsti +fx) intot he browser to save them. Another great feature is when you freeze a midi track you can then drag from it, audio(32bit fp) or the midi date, depending on where you drag it.
It's very non-linear in a lot of ways, it frees you up from a lot of things, some small, some big. I think even the average user isn't aware of all of the stuff it's capable of, Works best with an APC40 or launchpad though.
And it's far from perfect, 32 bit, worst resource management of any DAW. Arrange view needs some work as well as track automation.
Try it, try and write a few songs in it and see if its for you. Some things seem great on the surface but as soon as you start wring, thats when you'll know.
I had version 2 and 3 years ago. The idea was great but it wasn't quite up to speed back then, because there were simply too many artifacts.
Two years ago, I upgraded to 8. The single best move I've ever made.
I think clip/session mode is what wins the day. There is no program on the planet that allows users to shuffle around parts like Ableton. Reason tried to add that feature, but it's clunky. Pro Tools and Logic are OK for mixing and making linear recordings, but for people who write with a DAW, Ableton kills. 50 x better and faster.
I recently worked on a job where I had to lengthen / shorten parts, re-sing verses and add huge chunks in odd places. It would have taken forever to do that in Logic or Pro Tools. In Ableton Live it was bam bam bam... done.
My biggest gripe is the lack of an audio editor. I can do workarounds in Arrangement view, but I'm grateful to still have Pro Tools when mixing and doing final edits.
Ableton is like a musical instrument. Definitely the future of audio recording.
True. Ah, maybe I should say I haven't found one that I like as well, vs. no other program does it. I really like the way Ableton handles acoustic audio.
I recently worked on a job where I had to lengthen / shorten parts, re-sing verses and add huge chunks in odd places. It would have taken forever to do that in Logic or Pro Tools. In Ableton Live it was bam bam bam... done.
No it wouldnt. It would in fact be better in Pro Tools, Cubase and I suspect Logic. THey have stack recording where you can set up a loop and just keep going. SO imagine your recording an external synth and making all sorts of external moves and you have an eight bar loop. So you have recorded 10 cycles and all that stuff is there under separate tracks and its so easy to comp the best parts together. In Live it just records one long piece of audio so you then play hunt the best bits and spend ages cutting up little tiny bits on the arrange page
PT, Cubase also does keep last take only. SO again you can loop and loop until Xmas day unitil you get the perfect tweakers take.
Its features like these Live misses out on. People thinks its so great you can just drop in an instrument and effect so quickly and people go on about drum racks like its the best thing ever invented (It actually comes from Short Circuit2). Its ok, but I can think of many other instruments which do drums better like Xfer Nerve for example. I dont need and neither does anyone else need 128 little boxes to put drum sounds in. But the real work is actually coming up with stuff and believe it or not PTs, Cubase and probably Logic make this pretty easy once you get going. I used live exclusively for ten years. Its definitely not all its cracked up to be
Also in this thread theres misinformation. I can send midi from Cubase to multiple VIs at the same time as well as controller information. It takes a bit of time to understand how to do it and Steinberg would do well to make this easier. And theres Cubase drum editor a highly underrated feature and its midi plugin for drums (Sorry I forget it name) you can come up with some serious grooves on that thing). Used along with Groove agent or any drum machine beats Lives amateur midi editing any day.
Then there's the automation. Lives is a one record it all type deal. Theres no touch, or latch automation which is super handy when recording your VI's or doing any other type of automation moves.In fact its a must and once you get good at it you can get really dynamic mixes
ANd finally, again nothing beats PTs for audio editing. I cant explain what makes it so good to work with. Live cant touch it. Im not talking about precision editing. Just moving stuff around being able to change parts, bass lines, cutups in seconds rather than how live does it where theres just to much ****ing around. If you use Lives warp it can be heard a mile off. I stopped using Lives warp in version 4 or 5. When I listen back to those tracks they sound bloody awful. One or two tracks is ok, but not all of them.
Live seriously needs to improve
The arrangement page
Automation
Midi (a simple thing like telling me (in nimbers like 1.2.113 what position a note is so I can precisely nudge/move notes aroundin samples and get to know the numbers that usually make shit sound good. Right now all you can do is turn the grid off, zoom in and move manually. Thats no bad thing but LKike I say you get to know that moving that snare or clap back by exactly 36 samples works best.
No it wouldnt. It would in fact be better in Pro Tools, Cubase and I suspect Logic. THey have stack recording where you can set up a loop and just keep going. SO imagine your recording an external synth and making all sorts of external moves and you have an eight bar loop. So you have recorded 10 cycles and all that stuff is there under separate tracks and its so easy to comp the best parts together. In Live it just records one long piece of audio so you then play hunt the best bits and spend ages cutting up little tiny bits on the arrange page
It records what you tell it to, you simply press a button to start a new loops recording :/. You can automate it so it records in a new clip every 8 bars or however many you want with m4l. Thing is, you didn't know that, did you?
No it wouldnt. It would in fact be better in Pro Tools, Cubase and I suspect Logic. THey have stack recording where you can set up a loop and just keep going. SO imagine your recording an external synth and making all sorts of external moves and you have an eight bar loop. So you have recorded 10 cycles and all that stuff is there under separate tracks and its so easy to comp the best parts together. In Live it just records one long piece of audio so you then play hunt the best bits and spend ages cutting up little tiny bits on the arrange page
That is simply a different way of working. Comping vs. Looping. I like to comp vocals, and the linear programs are definitely better at doing that than Ableton. If I have a part ready to go, I can play it over and over in Ableton until I get it, set the markers, done. Easy.
But you can't re-arrange and entire song by shuffling bits around very easily without a program with clip/arrange mode (or something similar like offki mentioned). It's a totally different workflow.
I greatly prefer composing and arranging in ableton. For me, it's so much more intuitive, efficient, and powerful for getting the heart of an idea out there or establishing a killer vibe/groove. I don't use any soft synths so audio processing is very important to me, and it's so quick start from nothing and getting a few tracks up and running the way I want.
Today, I took the bus from Boston to NYC and made a pretty fun little song from a single sample in just a few hours on the bus.
I want from Logic to Live and am going back to Logic.
For me, Live is a great sketch pad. I love the MIDI plugins. But for me, with Logic being focused on the arrangement from the get go, it is easier for me to finish songs. Live is too disjointed for me. It's too easy for me to get stuck in a loop. I can see how it's better for playing live but that's not what I want to do. I won't stop using it entirely, but more as a preparatory tool.
Also I think Traktor is WAY better for DJing. DJing with Live is extremely boring (for the DJ)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Parsons
I've always been a believer in musical repetition to draw in the listener and make the music hypnotic.
I think one of the reasons Ableton live is so liked by its users (me included) is that it allows you to to musically fun/interesting things easily, in a way many other programs never even previously considered people making music on a computer would want to do.
Quick to get started playing as opposed to configuring, and super flexible.
The big caveat is if you move into multiple external hardware (particularly midi stuff), other programs/DAWS are much better.
It's interesting to hear the comments about hardware. I use hardware synths with Live and never stopped to think that there might be something wrong with it. It doesn't handle sysex and nrpns (maybe that's what the other posters mean?) but as far as MIDI routing and handling multiple controllers, I think it's much better than Logic. Logic forces all MIDI inputs to tracks through a single spigot that mixes all the controllers together, so that they can only be untangled by channel and not by port. That's a bummer to me. I also like being about to route MIDI from track to track in Live without having to go to the environment to get simple routing done. Dunno. Courses for horses I guess.
I've used Logic, Pro Tools, and FL Studio. None of them were half as fun to use while creating as Ableton. That right there is a much bigger deal than I think anyone gives credit. That's why I use it.
I am not using midi nor external audio (i.e. live guitar/drum) i/o...so what follows is only 100% itb commentary...
why not live
- audio export is very weak
a) no mp3 export
b) no save session on export option
- not 64 bit
- plugins do not match logic
- no nested groupings
- sends are a little irritating...a little.
demo didn't do anything for me personally
for me, the demo did not sell me on it. I tried the "lite" version and I found it sucky.
now...if the above is negative, it's not! I think live is awesome! Complete convert.
why live?
for me, live is AWESOME now.
In logic, everything is static
In live, everything is dynamic
Logic
To me, logic mimics pen and paper. one, and two, and three, and four...break here. Ok...lets get the chorus right. one and two and three. This is very "logical". and the midi is ridunkulous! So logic is very capable.
Live
To me, live mimics free form song creation, jamming out with buds, etc.
"cutoff man, cutoff!" swwooooop
What I like about Live: the x/y pads
- every vst has an xy pad by default
- a macbook's trackpad is essentially a built in midi xy controller
1. adjust param 1 of vst
2. adjust param 2 of vst
3. setup x of pad to param 1
4. setup y of pad to param 2
5. jam out, and tweak the x/y pad...this allows one to make very dynamic tracks, very quickly!
- logic doesn't do this at all iirc
how easy it is to create parts of a song, then jam out the tune.
- In logic, things are very structured.
- In live, I can have a fully fleshed and mixed vst 909 block (w/independent outs including default pattern) saved as a preset, and then jam out bass lines, leads, copy/paste those jams, create chorus versions or verse 2 etc. then i can replace that 909 block with better percussion.
session clips
- the ability to arrange a song based on clips is pretty old school feel in retrospect. i like it!
- ability to save a clip as a preset--genius!
1. take, say a multi-out drum vst
2. setup all the outputs, once
3. setup a default pattern
4. drag to browser
Now...anytime I need a fully mixed vst, drag from browser to new tune...
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to get simple routing done. Dunno. Courses for horses I guess.
