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#91
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
  #91
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Non linear reverb in the 80's came from units like the AMS, its an artificial space a bit like a gate but with a more natural decay but not as natural as traditional reverb. Perfect for using reverb as a part of the sound effect as in this genre of music.
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#92
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
Thats 100 percent DMX Kick and prob snare too. I have just got my DMX after using samples for so long and the thing that amazed me was the hihats they are beautiful and crisp no eq needed what so ever.
Haha makes me want to get one.

I'm sure it's the Linn in that track, for ages I was trying to figure out which one it was but after analyzing it all, to me it's definetely the Linn, the kick has that same click that the Linn kick has and the DMX can't sound anywhere near as heavy and fat as the Linn, punchy yes, but Hardness like the Linn? hmm

Hell if you can make the DMX sound as heavy/phat/punchy as that I'll bow down to you.

Listen here around at 2:07(solo kick) and 2:30 on McKenzie & Gardiner - From Time (Special Instrumental Remix) - Vidéo Soul / Funk / Disco - wat.tv

Any examples of Non Lin reverbs in software? Reverb is a big weakness of mine.

Cheers.
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#93
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Any examples of Non Lin reverbs in software? Reverb is a big weakness of mine.
I'm sure the several 224 emulations must be able to do the Lex non lin sound, I use altiverb ir's though (AMS and Lex).
#94
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Haha makes me want to get one.

I'm sure it's the Linn in that track, for ages I was trying to figure out which one it was but after analyzing it all, to me it's definetely the Linn, the kick has that same click that the Linn kick has and the DMX can't sound anywhere near as heavy and fat as the Linn, punchy yes, but Hardness like the Linn? hmm

Hell if you can make the DMX sound as heavy/phat/punchy as that I'll bow down to you.

Listen here around at 2:07(solo kick) and 2:30 on McKenzie & Gardiner - From Time (Special Instrumental Remix) - Vidéo Soul / Funk / Disco - wat.tv

Any examples of Non Lin reverbs in software? Reverb is a big weakness of mine.

Cheers.
Hi again, 1000 percent DMX kick see if you can find the credits on discogs.
Trust me I'm with you on the quest for that sound!
I will follow you on soundcloud I have some older stuff on there but soon to add some new old stuff!
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#95
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
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Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
Hi again, 1000 percent DMX kick see if you can find the credits on discogs.
Trust me I'm with you on the quest for that sound!
I will follow you on soundcloud I have some older stuff on there but soon to add some new old stuff!
lol I disagree but we will see, I asked one of producers of the track(on youtube) which kit he used but no reply, I'll ask him on FB to get a definete answer, if he can remember!

Yeah do.
#96
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
lol I disagree but we will see, I asked one of producers of the track(on youtube) which kit he used but no reply, I'll ask him on FB to get a definete answer, if he can remember!

Yeah do.
OK, The DMX was much more affordable back in the day hence why it was heard so much.
Did you listen to the battle of the machines link?
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#97
20th October 2012
Old 20th October 2012
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Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
OK, The DMX was much more affordable back in the day hence why it was heard so much.
Did you listen to the battle of the machines link?
Just went to check it... as it happens I actually came accross it earlier this week, coincidence.. got most of the tracks already but came across a gem in i to add to my collection, One Way - Condemned.. tune!
#98
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
I love this track and how the Linn sounds here. FAT!

LOL you guys are funny. Poster children for paralysis by analysis, making it far more complex that it really is. Where in the credits did it say Linn...I've owned both since the 80s and that sounds far closer to a DX than the Linn you're now delirious about. WTF lol


Quote:
The DMX was much more affordable back in the day hence why it was heard so much.
The Linn and DMX were the best drum machines of the era; neither was cheap and both were heard equally widely. Excepting "electro" tracks from back in the day that was not called electro then but hip hop, Rolands weren't generally desirable or sought after, were bought only if the abovementioned were financially out of range.

Quote:
I started playing with drum machines some 30 years ago, those "drum sounds" don't do it for me anymore - loooooong gone. It's gotta be either, real drums or uniquely processed synthetic drums (i.e; VERY personal touch / never worry about what Mr X or Y is doing - just get your own sound).
They're still amongst the best drum sounds ever sampled; the issue for a long time now hasn't been that, it's the fact that drum machine sounds follow trends, much like style trends in anything else. The cheesy Roland drum sounds that came in to vogue left these sounds in the dust. It's not that they sound bad at all; quite the contrary.
#99
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
.. It's clear as comparing them to other tracks wtih the DMX, the DMX in those tracks is punchy yes but it doesn't have that deep sound, the same as tracks do now adays, ya know?? (I mean those System kicks Thump in the remasters, a DMX out the box in no way thumps, maybe the re-mastering engineer, triggered another kick or something?)

Alot of these old tracks have been remastered and rereleased so it can be decieving, especially since my only source is the internet.!
That's what it is, the remastering!!!!! Uh, nope.

These were great sounds from day one in the early 80s when I used to hear them on boxes along NYC street corners and parks. Period. Nothin' else to the story.
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21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
those people saying it was just a little eq and reverb lol are very mistaken, for a start your talking about the days when most music involved a team of people just look at the back of any record sleeve from that era. The person who programed the DMX was different to the engineer and so on. Some of the best engineers perfected their craft in the 70's and 80's its a bit of a blind insult to suggest that nothing much went into it. Also dont under play the feel that programming the DMX gave to the overall effect! I'm with the OP its obvious that people can hear different things. I was around in the eighties and coupled with my research much used outboard to create the DMX sound included DBX compression, non linear reverb and SSL eq and buss compression. On many tracks you can clearly hear the side chained and gated 50 hz sub tone which was supplied by the desk. Listen to The Message By GMF and Melle Mel, also the System.
Listen to this nice DMX example" !!
Since you weren't there back in the day, didn't speak to some of those studio cats like I did, nor read up on some of their techniques as I did, you're once again seeking to make it more complex than it was, with little basis in fact.

Sure, in some cases the process could've been made more complex, but it most cases, including those of producers like Jam and Lewis who relied on the DMX, and others, it was REAL SIMPLE...GREAT stock sounds that have rarely been exceed since then, coupled with a little F/X n' EQ. PERIOD

Most if not all of today's drum sounds aren't as strong/punchy as those original 8 bit sounds. That's just the way it was, much like vintage synths, F/Xs and boards are still punchier than most faux equivalents made today.
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#101
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
LOL you guys are funny. Poster children for paralysis by analysis, making it far more complex that it really is. Where in the credits did it say Linn...I've owned both since the 80s and that sounds far closer to a DX than the Linn you're now delirious about. WTF lol
lol, I hate to say it but you are/were right, in a fit to prove it was the Linn I found a new much cleaner copy and analyzed it... the DMX indeed... I'm still deciding which kit I want to go with... I prefer the DMX slightly but thinking this track was the Linn made me want to go with the Linn.. all my favourite tracks use the DMX though so I suppose..

It can't just be me, sometimes these 2 can be hard to tell apart, lets just say the version I found sounds nothing like the version I analyzed before, much heavier/phatter almost sounds like a Linn Drum..

I was so pissed at not getting them to work for me at one point that I tried the 707 and loved it lol, fitted like a glove, heavy out of the box... too late for my sound though. LOL

But anyway yes like I've said I discovered that you were correct analogbass and it is pretty much just the basic sounds and processing in these tracks and I was just using bad references and attacking the mix from a skewed angle.

I disagree on the remastering part, I know for sure as far as the Network stuff the mastering changed the sound alot from my own ears and others. Pretty relevant to me as I think their stuff sounds like it could have been made today yet sounds authentic.

Read review: http://www.discogs.com/Network-I-Need-You/master/134462


So for alot of the heavyness I'm looking for I guess it's just getting the mix right and then fiddling about with the mastering to beef it up as with my mistrials so far at beefing up the DMX heavily in the mix(what I was doing wrong all along) it doesn't work.

I'm just rambling now anyway and I guess the case is closed and personally I just need to work on my mixing.

Thanks though analogbass, blunt but you were right.
#102
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
lol, I hate to say it but you are/were right, in a fit to prove it was the Linn I found a new much cleaner copy and analyzed it... the DMX indeed... I'm still deciding which kit I want to go with... I prefer the DMX slightly but thinking this track was the Linn made me want to go with the Linn.. all my favourite tracks use the DMX though so I suppose..

It can't just be me, sometimes these 2 can be hard to tell apart, lets just say the version I found sounds nothing like the version I analyzed before, much heavier/phatter almost sounds like a Linn Drum..

I was so pissed at not getting them to work for me at one point that I tried the 707 and loved it lol, fitted like a glove, heavy out of the box... too late for my sound though. LOL

But anyway yes like I've said I discovered that you were correct analogbass and it is pretty much just the basic sounds and processing in these tracks and I was just using bad references and attacking the mix from a skewed angle.

I disagree on the remastering part, I know for sure as far as the Network stuff the mastering changed the sound alot.

Read review: http://www.discogs.com/Network-I-Need-You/master/134462


So for alot of the heavyness I'm looking for I guess it's just getting the mix right and then fiddling about with the mastering to beef it up as with my mistrials so far at beefing up the DMX heavily in the mix(what I was doing wrong all along) it doesn't work.

I'm just rambling now anyway and I guess the case is closed and personally I just need to work on my mixing.

Thanks though analogbass, blunt but you were right.

They're BOTH great. IMO their sounds haven't been exceeded since. The only problem is that they're better but haven't been in vogue for sooo long, sadly.

The lesson I learned (and was surprised by) early on was that in most cases these dudes just used great sounding gear (which was common then, not hard to find) and used their ear to tweak it as desired. Jam and Lewis were an example; they didn't have that much but used it well and each piece sounded good right out the box after being tuned/tweaked.

Yes, sometimes there were huge lists of gear-but in most cases each part was played with minor changes to sound, excepting minor F/X and EQ tweaks. The only exceptions where there was more to it, where the sound actually changed in any appreciable fashion that sounded good or at least different, was the rare Boddicker or other better programmed part, and even in those cases there were instances where all the extra effort really didn't sound better than simply made pieces-oftentimes a mountain of gear means sh%$...less is more if you know what you're doing.
#103
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
  #103
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The pitch of these drum sounds makes a big deal. The Linn LM-2 snare is blah at its normal pitch, but sped it up it sounds really good (EPMD "you're a customer", gangstarr "mass appeal"). The DMX is a superior machine IMO, but even there the case is the same, Mary Jane Girls "All Night Long" the snare is sped up 2 semitones, I think. The hat was hi-pass filtered to an extreme degree.

I listened to your example and I would recommend a few things. Run your drum hits through a spectrum analyzer and see where the fundamental is. Kick is usually 80-100, snare 200. Don't be afraid to boost that freq by 8+ db. And then look into cutting freq above and below that and see whether it sounds good. Don't be afraid to boost 3.5k and 10kHz on things or cut them. A lot of that is going to be relative to the other instruments in your track. I would also employ distortion/saturation/warmer plugs, as these original recordings were tracked to 2" tape thru $100k consoles.
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#104
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
  #104
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#105
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
Since you weren't there back in the day, didn't speak to some of those studio cats like I did, nor read up on some of their techniques as I did, you're once again seeking to make it more complex than it was, with little basis in fact.

Sure, in some cases the process could've been made more complex, but it most cases, including those of producers like Jam and Lewis who relied on the DMX, and others, it was REAL SIMPLE...GREAT stock sounds that have rarely been exceed since then, coupled with a little F/X n' EQ. PERIOD

Most if not all of today's drum sounds aren't as strong/punchy as those original 8 bit sounds. That's just the way it was, much like vintage synths, F/Xs and boards are still punchier than most faux equivalents made today.
LOL!!! this is the problem with forums you have no idea who you're talking to.
Without getting into another direction, I'm well over 40 and was very much there at the time as you put it. I wont assume what you do or dont know I think that would be fair. I still have an enthusiasm for that music which I'm glad to see is shared by some of the newer generation.
You might not be into the sound anymore but many are why do some people find that hard to deal with. I do agree with some of what you said about stock sounds yes, but as I said before you cant speak for all kinds of music. You mention Jam and Lewis, well do a search for Steve Hodge who was their engineer through the 80's it will soon clarify the situation. The sound was a sum of the parts strengthened by musicality and songwriting, but the fact remains. Yes the sounds back then were punchier but I can assure you that when I play my DMX through my mixer it does not sound like them records. Have you listened to some of the reference tracks in this thread? I challenge any of you who are playing it down to this. Get your best DMX samples program a drum pattern and lets see how it stands up against these classic tracks.
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#106
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
Upped the original LinnDrum kick and snare here



Agreed, they sound good pitched down too...
Cheers tun.

Yeah, the Kick/Snares in this tracks are if anything pitched down, snare hits at about 120 to 140hz most tracks! Nowhere near 200hz, not quite the same as hiphop.

Yeah Saturation/Distortion is something I'm checking out, what are your guys strategies for adding saturation, add it to individual elements and then on your drum buss?
#107
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
They're BOTH great. IMO their sounds haven't been exceeded since. The only problem is that they're better but haven't been in vogue for sooo long, sadly.

The lesson I learned (and was surprised by) early on was that in most cases these dudes just used great sounding gear (which was common then, not hard to find) and used their ear to tweak it as desired. Jam and Lewis were an example; they didn't have that much but used it well and each piece sounded good right out the box after being tuned/tweaked.

Yes, sometimes there were huge lists of gear-but in most cases each part was played with minor changes to sound, excepting minor F/X and EQ tweaks. The only exceptions where there was more to it, where the sound actually changed in any appreciable fashion that sounded good or at least different, was the rare Boddicker or other better programmed part, and even in those cases there were instances where all the extra effort really didn't sound better than simply made pieces-oftentimes a mountain of gear means sh%$...less is more if you know what you're doing.
You say you were their and You mention Jam and Lewis then you know that they are Producers / Songwriters right ? Their studio demos sounded nothing like the finished masters of the respective tracks. Their tracks where mixed by some of the best ears and with equipment that can be considered above project studio standard i.e Harrison recording consoles, which where also used to record MJ Thriller etc.
Here is another great resource we have today Spotify its great, you can find many demo versions of famous songs often using the same sound sources like Linn Drum etc then you can listen to the released version.... ears dont lie.

P.S obviously my enthusiasm makes me come across as young child
#108
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Cheers tun.

Yeah, the Kick/Snares in this tracks are if anything pitched down, snare hits at about 120 to 140hz most tracks! Nowhere near 200hz, not quite the same as hiphop.

Yeah Saturation/Distortion is something I'm checking out, what are your guys strategies for adding saturation, add it to individual elements and then on your drum buss?
Here is a little Jam and Lewis info

Steve Hodge
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#109
21st October 2012
Old 21st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
Here is a little Jam and Lewis info

Steve Hodge
Nice one, big fan of their stuff from back then!

Will check Spotify too.

Cheers.
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#110
22nd October 2012
Old 22nd October 2012
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BTW, Just to add some fuel to the fire, I think this sums up what I and creative69 are getting at when we say it's not just the DMX.

This is the kick chopped from a decent copy of that From Time track, which seems to use the DMX, it has obviously been mastered and remastered but still, even applying some low shelfing etc it still has so much depth and power.

I reckon they must be using the gate a sine wave trick to get that back end thump but it still doesn't explain the power/depth.. It's like a DMX on steroids lol.

Although I've got the DMX to work for me now and am happy, I've not quite reached this and ultimately it's what I want to achieve.. hell I meant even have to contact Dave Ford who engineered it and alot of other boogie tracks back then. lol

...and this is only the Kick, never mind the snare.. similar processing I'd imagine though.

PS: You must think I'm babbling on now but the way I see it is, these processed drums have a completely different sound to the stock sound, and therefore change the aesthetic of the track, they sound much tougher giving a different vibe, these tracks wouldn't sound the same if they had the weak sound.

Here's an example of the DMX sounding more stock, kind of like I can achieve now, much different character though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWThsyqy3sA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54qYh...eature=related

So yeah check the clip below, how do you turn make THAT(1st) from that(2nd) in the clip?
#111
22nd October 2012
Old 22nd October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
BTW, Just to add some fuel to the fire, I think this sums up what I and creative69 are getting at when we say it's not just the DMX.

This is the kick chopped from a decent copy of that From Time track, which seems to use the DMX, it has obviously been mastered and remastered but still, even applying some low shelfing etc it still has so much depth and power.

I reckon they must be using the gate a sine wave trick to get that back end thump but it still doesn't explain the power/depth.. It's like a DMX on steroids lol.

Although I've got the DMX to work for me now and am happy, I've not quite reached this and ultimately it's what I want to achieve.. hell I meant even have to contact Dave Ford who engineered it and alot of other boogie tracks back then. lol

...and this is only the Kick, never mind the snare.. similar processing I'd imagine though.

PS: You must think I'm babbling on now but the way I see it is, these processed drums have a completely different sound to the stock sound, and therefore change the aesthetic of the track, they sound much tougher giving a different vibe, these tracks wouldn't sound the same if they had the weak sound.

Here's an example of the DMX sounding more stock, kind of like I can achieve now, much different character though:

Get It While You Can-Bobby Nunn - YouTube
Bobby Nunn - Don't Knock It (Until You Try It) - YouTube

So yeah check the clip below, how do you turn make THAT(1st) from that(2nd) in the clip?
First off a forum is a perfect place to babble so babble away! The sine wave trick was common place in the day fact. Listen to "The Message" grand master flash at the beginning. Also did you use an analyzer to note the frequencies of the processed one? Of course the mastering of a commercial recording will also contribute to the overall tightness and punch in the kick.
Try hi passing the kick 24 db at around 50-70 hz.
And If you go to David Frank.com you can ask him about the DMX as I did but I'm yet to get a response.
#112
22nd October 2012
Old 22nd October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
BTW, Just to add some fuel to the fire, I think this sums up what I and creative69 are getting at when we say it's not just the DMX.

This is the kick chopped from a decent copy of that From Time track, which seems to use the DMX, it has obviously been mastered and remastered but still, even applying some low shelfing etc it still has so much depth and power.

I reckon they must be using the gate a sine wave trick to get that back end thump but it still doesn't explain the power/depth.. It's like a DMX on steroids lol.

Although I've got the DMX to work for me now and am happy, I've not quite reached this and ultimately it's what I want to achieve.. hell I meant even have to contact Dave Ford who engineered it and alot of other boogie tracks back then. lol

...and this is only the Kick, never mind the snare.. similar processing I'd imagine though.

PS: You must think I'm babbling on now but the way I see it is, these processed drums have a completely different sound to the stock sound, and therefore change the aesthetic of the track, they sound much tougher giving a different vibe, these tracks wouldn't sound the same if they had the weak sound.

Here's an example of the DMX sounding more stock, kind of like I can achieve now, much different character though:

Get It While You Can-Bobby Nunn - YouTube
Bobby Nunn - Don't Knock It (Until You Try It) - YouTube

So yeah check the clip below, how do you turn make THAT(1st) from that(2nd) in the clip?
BTW....I think that first video is a real kit
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#113
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creative69 View Post
First off a forum is a perfect place to babble so babble away! The sine wave trick was common place in the day fact. Listen to "The Message" grand master flash at the beginning. Also did you use an analyzer to note the frequencies of the processed one? Of course the mastering of a commercial recording will also contribute to the overall tightness and punch in the kick.
Try hi passing the kick 24 db at around 50-70 hz.
And If you go to David Frank.com you can ask him about the DMX as I did but I'm yet to get a response.
Believe me I've analyzed the kit and tried a whole lot of things that don't come anywhere near it, the only thing I can think of is Parralell compression which I have tried also, there are so many variations and chains of all these things that it will take some time to figure out.

I've already messaged Dave Frank on his site/blog, if you go on his contact page of his site you'll see my post.

He says pretty much the same as analogbass, kit with some eq n compression.. I guess the question then is what eq and compression.

I'm still experimenting anyway on some new projects, getting closer.
#114
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
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I've not read the whole thread and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, there were lots of chip sets floating around for the DMX and LinnDrum. I had (4) sets of chips for my Linn including the oem chips, but I can't recall what they were.

I wonder if the DMX had a base because it was used as part of the complete oberheim DMX, DSX and OB-8 setup?
tun
#115
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
So yeah check the clip below, how do you turn make THAT(1st) from that(2nd) in the clip?
My effort... using TransMod, Ferox, EQuality (x2), Pro-Q and TesslaSE.
Attached Files
File Type: wav dx bass drum experiment.wav (62.3 KB, 54 views)
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#116
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
My effort... using TransMod, Ferox, EQuality (x2), Pro-Q and TesslaSE.
Not as hard but very good and sounds like in the right direction, what was the order of the chain, your philosophy?

Edit: Also, where is the DX kick from? I've got a few different DX/DMX with differences from sample rate to the original EPROMs all with a slightly different sound. Is there a difference between the DMX/DX kick, from the machine?
#117
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
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cabrone, are you actually using a real DMX? because if samples you might be on a hard quest to achieve what you're looking for .. unless high quality round robin and even so, the internal summing of some of those old drum machines gave a certain flavor samples in a daw can't exactly replicate not to mention slamming them hot on 2" tape which was the way it was done back then..

..as for those 2 bobby nunn tracks, it's sounds clear a real kit is layered under the first song , second sounds bit more stock..
Cabrone
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#118
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
cabrone, are you actually using a real DMX? because if samples you might be on a hard quest to achieve what you're looking for .. unless high quality round robin and even so, the internal summing of some of those old drum machines gave a certain flavor samples in a daw can't exactly replicate not to mention slamming them hot on 2" tape which was the way it was done back then..

..as for those 2 bobby nunn tracks, it's sounds clear a real kit is layered under the first song , second sounds bit more stock..
Ok first track might not be a DMX but the 2nd definetely is, another:

Bobby Nunn - Too Young - YouTube

The point is simply to illustrate the differences, and that the tracks I/we are trying to emulate are being processed a particular way.

Just using samples I'm afraid and realise I won't necessarily get the exact same sound but will try my best to get as close as possible.

tun has done quite a good job!
#119
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #119
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when i said stock for the second..i meant stock DMX (don't underestimate the power of layering)

i understand you're chasing the processing chains.. all i'm saying is you might want to consider investing in a real DMX seeing how passionate you seem to be about it. i use to endlessly ponder myself into how to get 808/909 samples to sound like my favorite records, well i just ended getting the real ones and problem solved. another perhaps cheaper alternative is to get a lo-fi sampler like S-950 or Emax, in order to get closer to the original DMX engine (although i believe it was 8-bit). I put my Linn/DMX samples through my SP1200 and i get that instant smack and awesome detune sound even though the source is from my DAW..
tun
#120
23rd October 2012
Old 23rd October 2012
  #120
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
the internal summing of some of those old drum machines gave a certain flavor
True, but they would've always used the separate outs.
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