80s Boogie Post Disco Drum Machine
#31
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
Analogbass, you in nyc ??
i'd love to meet up in the fall and talk synths/80's - your a total wiki of electronic production since the 80's (or 70's) you got me onto the Korg's
just bagged myself a Poly 800 = £120 - sounds absolute class - you know compared to the synthmania with the Prophet 5 patches - Dare I be damned but I preffered the Poly 800 patches - especially the brass n strings - the prophet 5 patches on synthmania sounded pretty standard and NOT worth the £3500 pricetag.
I started visiting NYC clubs in the late 70s-early 80s during the golden era when NYC was the center of the dance world-house, rap, hip hop, electro all originated there in the incubator of NY/NJ. The place was on fire, in the clubs, parks, in the streets. You'd see enlightened travelers from Europe and elsewhere at the airports, with bagfulls of records after one of their regular trips to NYC record stores. Paul Oakenfold was one of them. I lived there for 2 decades. I still have my VIP drink cards from Studio 54 and Paradise Garage membership-those were the days of analog heaven! Not only the synths but also the drums, board and DJ mixers, speaker setups-everything was high end.

My favorite producer impressed me when I saw that he had a Poly 800 in his studio-real nice warm, organic sounds from it and the DW Korgs.

Anyone interested in this era, which IMO was the beginning of today's mainstream dance musics, should watch two multi-part documentaries available on the tube-Maestro, about the Paradise Garage, and "the history of house", made by the BBC. Most don't realize that the "godfather of house" in Chicago was a transplanted NYer. And/or read "Last Night a DJ Saved My Life".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EznncXgJqyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWpAYtmsqqM
Ged
#32
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #32
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Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
I started visiting NYC clubs in the late 70s-early 80s during the golden era when NYC was the center of the dance world-house, rap, hip hop, electro all originated there in the incubator of NY/NJ. Then lived there for 2 decades. I still have my VIP drink cards from Studio 54 and Paradise Garage membership-those were the days of analog heaven! Not only the synths but also the drums, board and DJ mixers, speaker setups-everything was high end.

My favorite producer impressed me when I saw that he had a Poly 800 in his studio-real nice warm, organic sounds from it and the DW Korgs.
you in Arizona?

sorry i have a terrible US geography knowledge - it's just that years ago you helped me ( i had a different log in) in understanding those punchy 80's sounds - so thanks man - I may be coming to NYC this year - if your in the proximity shout out!!
#33
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #33
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Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Yeah man cheers, I definetely see your point but out of all the tracks I've heard these are a few that stand out to me with amazing mixes and something I want to model my stuff on, you know what I mean?

It's like I hear alot of amazing tracks but few sound amazing sonically and these ones are really a treat to the ears, especially that 'The Limit' track IMO, very phat and punchy.. well, all of them really.

Cheers again.
yeah nothing wrong with trying to learn/improve and strive for greatness. I hear that. And I agree there should be a dedicated forum/thread for Funk on here. peace.
#34
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
you in Arizona?

sorry i have a terrible US geography knowledge - it's just that years ago you helped me ( i had a different log in) in understanding those punchy 80's sounds - so thanks man - I may be coming to NYC this year - if your in the proximity shout out!!
Phoenix now...spring is starting it's 28C and sunny today and tomorrow..I PMd you. NYC is best saved for summer visits now, for the outdoor dance scene which is where it's at these days in NYC.
#35
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #35
Gear nut
 

OP, that was a great track. It had the right feel. You can tell it was made today and not in the 80's though. Again if you really want that 80's sound you would need to really use the recording and equipment from back in the day. It's like trying to get a 50's sound today. You could remake a classic and it wouldn't sound the same unless use used the equipment, mixing and mastering techniques from that era. Either way, you should really focus on just making it sound good today. You're on the right path. A good mix engineer and mastering engineer would take it to the next level. You need to remember back in the day 1 person didn't do everything like now a days, so you got the best people to do what they were best at.
#36
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #36
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Once you've been or lived in nyc, everything else just plain sucks. It is depressing living back in socal to no end... I soooo can't wait to move back. I hate cali (except sf, that place is cool).
#37
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #37
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2
#38
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Kaye View Post
Just listen to his DMX drums. I've heard the same pattern played straight from a DMX that doesnt have the punch his does.

Would love to know more about his techniques with drums, live and machines, if anyone was around then or has an ideas

what's there to say?
Written-By, Arranged By, Producer – Rick James
a good drummer with a nice sounding drumkit, good mics, a nice mixing desk, reverb, full on production in a top studio
love that track
#39
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
Phoenix now...spring is starting it's 28C and sunny today and tomorrow..I PMd you. NYC is best saved for summer visits now, for the outdoor dance scene which is where it's at these days in NYC.
Winter here hasn't been that bad this year for some reason! As usual, when I was a kid, I remember the winters here being much harsher.

Regards,
Frank
Cabrone
Thread Starter
#40
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
Cabrone, heres a little ditty done with Sequential drum trax samples

Funkion
not mixed that well - but it was a quick render in ableton - with a bit of the analog saturation in live
That's nice man!

Are those samples ones that are available around the net?

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
I could see that coming, but the thing is, the Drumtraks doesn't even have the "good" kind of stiff timing that the Rolands did, and wasn't popular like forever, until recently.

If a certain niche of music likes it now, it's probably because of the resurgence of electro, which is essentially an 80s synth and drum machine sound that predated most of the Rolands. That would include rather than focus on just the Drumtracks I suspect.



It was just called soul, funk, etc. It wasn't called R&B and certainly wasn't called electro. If the term electro existed, it was in regards to very narrow slices of hip hop.

Electro today is a revisionist term that I believe arose in trend-driven England, much much later after the fact. It's actually misleading, because the new "electro" sound of today lumps various musics of yesterday together that were never heard together-NYC club, rap, hip hop, electro that has in common a very synthy sound and particular drum patterns and sounds. These musics were heard by different crowds for the most part, but are now lumped together in "electro" because the current electro sound is essentially anything that sounds 80s synthy and features 80s drum sounds that were until recently, out of favor.
That's interesting to know, I always kinda wondered what it was called myself, I'd just call it electrofunk like the others mentioned but then I did some searching and 'Post-Disco' came up on wiki, not a very descriptive style, it seems to me though that this style(the electro but with more of a soul/rnb/jazz) influence was a bit slept on?? As in it doesn't even have it's own proper name lol. I get the feeling Italo-Disco was more popular in the 80s? Is that correct? It seems to be in the movies anyway...

But yeah the stuff I've been listening to ranges from the early Brit Funk & Jazzy funk stuff to the more poppy, rnb stuff from all over the 80s, and I do kinda lump it all together as it all his that similar feel and vibe, that I and I'm sure others love about it. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
It's probably your samples then.
EPROM Images

Those are the samples I have, up to scratch?

Quote:
There are hundreds if not thousands of early-mid 80s records with that kickass Oberheim kit, and it's not that each producer used the same processing on them. No, those are just how good those sounds (and the Linndrum's) were, as the best drum machines on the market at the time.

At most, you could add a little EQ to those sounds, but that's how they sound, period.

The Limit and MJG-just reverb on the snare. On the Network track, reverb on the doubled clap/snare. That's it.

Here's another example. Classic early Jam & Lewis formula using stock Oberheim coupled with OB-8

I DIDN'T MEAN TO TURN YOU ON (ALBUM VERSION)- CHERRELLE - YouTube

Classic punchy Oberheim, again with not much more than a touch of reverb/echo on the kick, tamboreen, congas. The Oberheim and Linndrum were the musical standards in NYC, not Rolands. They fell out of favor because the Rolands became trendy not because they sounded better.

Grandmaster Flash - White Lines (Don't Do It) (1983) Original - YouTube
I know of that Cherrele track(snare hits nicely) but even the kick in that doesn't have the same depth. It sounds alot more like the DMX kick I have..

So what is it that these guys in my example tracks were doing? Cause there's definetely something else going in, would it just the gate a sub technique?

That last track illustrates my point, if you listen to the kick in that and then the kick in my examples you can clearly hear the difference and that is the difference I'm trying to figure out, how do you make the DMX kit sturdy with depth?

I'm not even sure if the Network drumkit is the DMX? If you listen to the stock sample kick, how would you turn that into the kick in the Network track? Maybe it's a Roland kit?

ionian: No access to any outboard stuff, but I'm going to play more with saturation ITB.

roymaya: That's true yeah but I'm going to do the best I can ITB and I am aiming that be that great mixing engineer.

Sorry if it seems like I'm going on and on I just feel maybe some are not understanding what I'm talking about?

Another thing is the mastering, obviously back then they didn't slam it like we do todays, how much GR would there typically have been back then?

Thanks guys for your suggestions so far.
Ged
#41
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #41
Ged
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
That's nice man!

Are those samples ones that are available around the net?



Sorry if it seems like I'm going on and on I just feel maybe some are not understanding what I'm talking about?

Another thing is the mastering, obviously back then they didn't slam it like we do todays, how much GR would there typically have been back then?

Thanks guys for your suggestions so far.
yes those were the free samples - just googled sequential drumtrax samples

thing about the mastering - you'd be surprised to hear that there probably wasn't any compression - probably no peak limiting either - it was all in the mix.
#42
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
That's nice man!

Are those samples ones that are available around the net?



That's interesting to know, I always kinda wondered what it was called myself, I'd just call it electrofunk like the others mentioned but then I did some searching and 'Post-Disco' came up on wiki, not a very descriptive style, it seems to me though that this style(the electro but with more of a soul/rnb/jazz) influence was a bit slept on?? As in it doesn't even have it's own proper name lol. I get the feeling Italo-Disco was more popular in the 80s? Is that correct? It seems to be in the movies anyway...

But yeah the stuff I've been listening to ranges from the early Brit Funk & Jazzy funk stuff to the more poppy, rnb stuff from all over the 80s, and I do kinda lump it all together as it all his that similar feel and vibe, that I and I'm sure others love about it. :D



EPROM Images

Those are the samples I have, up to scratch?



I know of that Cherrele track(snare hits nicely) but even the kick in that doesn't have the same depth. It sounds alot more like the DMX kick I have..

I'm not even sure if the Network drumkit is the DMX? If you listen to the stock sample kick, how would you turn that into the kick in the Network track? Maybe it's a Roland kit?.
It's all DMX or DX. The only differences one record to the next are minor tweaks in drum tuning and EQ with a little reverb thrown in. And use a good quality mixer like a Mackie.


Quote:
OP, that was a great track. It had the right feel. You can tell it was made today and not in the 80's though. Again if you really want that 80's sound you would need to really use the recording and equipment from back in the day. It's like trying to get a 50's sound today. You could remake a classic and it wouldn't sound the same unless use used the equipment, mixing and mastering techniques from that era. Either way, you should really focus on just making it sound good today. You're on the right path. A good mix engineer and mastering engineer would take it to the next level. You need to remember back in the day 1 person didn't do everything like now a days, so you got the best people to do what they were best at.

I've used recent mixers and gotten similar results, as long as the source material, the initial sound source, is vintage.


Quote:
Winter here hasn't been that bad this year for some reason! As usual, when I was a kid, I remember the winters here being much harsher.
It's been warm over large parts of the US and Canada this winter. I would like to have been in NY Feb. or Jan. for those weekends where it was warm enough to be in Central Park for some music.


BTW the term "Boogie" now used is, like electro, a revionist/new term used to identify a certain musical genre. Unlike electro, it's accurate in being centered around a specific genre and sound, from about 1979 to the mid-80s.

Whereas the old music now lumped under "electro" were very distinct, largely separate musical genres and demographics back in the day, they're all now lumped under "electro" only because of the commonality in production aesthetic and equipment used.

Lumping what was then NYC club, hip hop or rap, soul or funk "electro" is misleading. If there was electro then, it was a segment within NYC/NJ hip hop; tracks by Hashim that were inpired by Planet Rock, whose sound was arguably the beginnings of Detroit techno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku55YLD_Rdk
Cabrone
Thread Starter
#43
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
It's all DMX or DX. The only differences one record to the next are minor tweaks in drum tuning and EQ with a little reverb thrown in. And use a good quality mixer like a Mackie.
Well it's those processing differences that I'm after, I don't think they're so minor though, there's a significant difference between the sound.

I'm all ITB btw. All lowend.

I didn't realise there was A DX also, a little reading says the DX was a lighter version of the DMX with less sounds etc but are the drums exactly the same?

re: electro . Yeah I know the electro you're talking about as a genre. So what was the sound that we are discussing(BB Q Band, Change, Kashif, Lewis & Jam, Loose Ends etc) called back then, out of curiousitys sake?
#44
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Well it's those processing differences that I'm after, I don't think they're so minor though, there's a significant difference between the sound.

I'm all ITB btw. All lowend.

I didn't realise there was A DX also, a little reading says the DX was a lighter version of the DMX with less sounds etc but are the drums exactly the same?

re: electro . Yeah I know the electro you're talking about as a genre. So what was the sound that we are discussing(BB Q Band, Change, Kashif, Lewis & Jam, Loose Ends etc) called back then, out of curiousitys sake?

The differences are minor, if familiar with the sounds. In most cases, here and other forums, people makes things more complex than they are. Most producers both then and now, used surprisingly little out the box thinking or modification on the sound actuall. Disappointingly so. The main thing is getting the source sounds right then knowing how to use em.

The Oberheim (and Linn) were always kickass; as the drummer of the Police said, "you could put a match out with the thump of the Oberheim kick, holding it up to the speaker". The Oberheim and Linn were the drum machines of choice (along with the 808 for some musics). The Rolands only superceded them in the mid-80s onwards, and became popular due to vast changes in musical trends, not because they sounded as good or better in almost every case.

Another musical category whose meaning has changed significantly: "R&B". Back in the 70s and 80s, that was a dated term to those of use who loved soul and funk. R&B then only referred to older musics of the 50s/60s genre as done by guys like BB King. Largely listened to by white audiences in the 70s and 80s whereas the black crowds were in to funk and soul then-R&B wasn't used for those musics as it is now that it's come full circle.
Cabrone
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#45
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #45
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Thread Starter
Well I think you were right in there not being any voodoo to it as I believe I've found the process.. Simply pitching down the Kick and then a bit of processing ofcourse, it seems to be what I was after!

I only thought of it after watching a little video of the DMX and the guy was playing with the pitch knobs on the back of it and voila! Sure I'd tried it before though but given up on it lol.

So here's a little project I opened up with the DMX I already had in it and worked with it a bit. Mind you it's not necessarily perfect but I'll still fine tune it perhaps.

Check it out if you like the funk! I'm excited now as I can now get the kit sounding phat. :D
#46
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Well I think you were right in there not being any voodoo to it as I believe I've found the process.. Simply pitching down the Kick and then a bit of processing ofcourse, it seems to be what I was after!

I only thought of it after watching a little video of the DMX and the guy was playing with the pitch knobs on the back of it and voila! Sure I'd tried it before though but given up on it lol.

So here's a little project I opened up with the DMX I already had in it and worked with it a bit. Mind you it's not necessarily perfect but I'll still fine tune it perhaps.

Check it out if you like the funk! I'm excited now as I can now get the kit sounding phat. :D
glad you got some results - cool stuff. I do have a lot of love for this sound also - although dont make it myself. Midnight Star is one band I used to like.
Ged
#47
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #47
Ged
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Well I think you were right in there not being any voodoo to it as I believe I've found the process.. Simply pitching down the Kick and then a bit of processing ofcourse, it seems to be what I was after!

I only thought of it after watching a little video of the DMX and the guy was playing with the pitch knobs on the back of it and voila! Sure I'd tried it before though but given up on it lol.

So here's a little project I opened up with the DMX I already had in it and worked with it a bit. Mind you it's not necessarily perfect but I'll still fine tune it perhaps.

Check it out if you like the funk! I'm excited now as I can now get the kit sounding phat. :D
woo hoo, that kicks ass mate - what synths were you using ?
#48
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
what's there to say?
Written-By, Arranged By, Producer – Rick James
a good drummer with a nice sounding drumkit, good mics, a nice mixing desk, reverb, full on production in a top studio
love that track
Were you there during the recording?
Cabrone
Thread Starter
#49
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
woo hoo, that kicks ass mate - what synths were you using ?
Cheers, mainly just Pro 53 and a minimoog emulation for the bass... To me, the Prophet 5(and emulations) is the daddy of 80s Funk, those filters. :D
Ged
#50
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #50
Ged
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woah your in scotland?
whereabouts man? i'm in motherwell / Newarthill
which Minimoog emu you using - Arturia?
#51
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrone View Post
Cheers, mainly just Pro 53 and a minimoog emulation for the bass... To me, the Prophet 5(and emulations) is the daddy of 80s Funk, those filters. :D
Great demo. Goes to show you, it's how you use it! I tried the pro 53 in the past and wasn't impressed but it sounds great in your demo. I should give it a shot in context...

Regards,
Frank
Ged
#52
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Great demo. Goes to show you, it's how you use it! I tried the pro 53 in the past and wasn't impressed but it sounds great in your demo. I should give it a shot in context...

Regards,
Frank
It really "does" sound 80% there already doesn't it? I think he's being too hard on himself.
Ged
#53
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #53
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here a quick Oberheim DX clip with bass and chords - not mixed just to show the goldbaby samples off...

Funkio Gold
#54
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #54
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can you tell me more for this kick its sound great! Did you mixing two kick's one tune pitching and other normal kicks or only one playing!

Regards
Adam
Ged
#55
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamnpoland View Post
can you tell me more for this kick its sound great! Did you mixing two kick's one tune pitching and other normal kicks or only one playing!

Regards
Adam
me or the OP?

the op just used a detuned oberheim kick sample,
I used a goldbaby dx kick with a low mid cut.
#56
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Kaye View Post
Were you there during the recording?
no, I wish! did I have to, to come to this conclusion? it's deduction; that's how these ppl. produced in 1983, they went into a studio and played. Rick James wasn't an unknown electro/hiphop guy, he had a backing band. This "Mary Jane Girls" album was a Motown production. Rick James did have a home studio, but I think it wasn't recorded there (eeehh at Motown!). what did you think? it's certainly not a drummachine, or sampler, also doesn't sound like one to me at all.
I just found this little clip:

Here's that band he's talking about: Paul Hines: drums, percussion. And the album cover just for the fun of it.


Yeah, "Last night a DJ saved my life" is a good book.
#57
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #57
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to other people are also! Thank you
Cabrone
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#58
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #58
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
woah your in scotland?
whereabouts man? i'm in motherwell / Newarthill
which Minimoog emu you using - Arturia?
It's the Minimonsta

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Great demo. Goes to show you, it's how you use it! I tried the pro 53 in the past and wasn't impressed but it sounds great in your demo. I should give it a shot in context...

Regards,
Frank
Yeah it's decent, I've tried a few out even the free ones like SCP5, they all have the distinctive prophet sound but even though some would disagree(most prefer pro53), the Arturia Prophet V sounds the best to my ear, very phat sounding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamnpoland View Post
can you tell me more for this kick its sound great! Did you mixing two kick's one tune pitching and other normal kicks or only one playing!

Regards
Adam
Yeah It's just the sample from the above, pitched down 2 semitones then a bit of ferrox, high pass eq(cutting off below 50hz) then some compression and that's going into a drum buss compressor.

Mind you I still want it to have more thump/thud/power though.

I think layering a higher pitched one aswell may provide that though, so its really knocking around the 100hz region... Could you do this back in the day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
here a quick Oberheim DX clip with bass and chords - not mixed just to show the goldbaby samples off...

Funkio Gold
Sounds good man, I'll investigate those, I didn't realise they did samples of it.

I'm just outside Edinburgh btw, so other side lol.

I noticed in your other thread you're using an MKS(was it?), so you use outboard kit?

Cool vid Reptil.. Thanks to Dave Chapelle I couldn't help but say 'b*tch' after everytime they said his name.
#59
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogbass View Post
It's probably your samples then.
I would say it's more like a combination of things - and in most cases, what you're missing is vintage hardware, actual analog machines and analog tape.

I have noticed the same thing as the OP, I have all those classic drum machine samples in various forms (MOTU BPM & the Classic Beatbox Anthology, plus a package of 214 drum machines someone online put together, called "The Machine"; even some Kontakt Instruments like their Retro Machines package and the Zero-G Nostalgia package) - and I don't think I've ever achieved a LinnDrum/DMX sound I actually like with them.

You could try the Waves Eddie Kramer tape plugin? Tape Plugin | Kramer Master Tape | Waves

Here's my example - a brief snippet of an unfinished Herbie-esque Rhodes ditty. I used Logic's "Fat EQ" and "Limiter" plug-ins to achieve this. I don't know if it's that punchy, but it sure is fat. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15045839/Lowrider.mp3
Ged
#60
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1na View Post
I would say it's more like a combination of things - and in most cases, what you're missing is vintage hardware, actual analog machines and analog tape.

I have noticed the same thing as the OP, I have all those classic drum machine samples in various forms (MOTU BPM & the Classic Beatbox Anthology, plus a package of 214 drum machines someone online put together, called "The Machine"; even some Kontakt Instruments like their Retro Machines package and the Zero-G Nostalgia package) - and I don't think I've ever achieved a LinnDrum/DMX sound I actually like with them.

You could try the Waves Eddie Kramer tape plugin? Tape Plugin | Kramer Master Tape | Waves

Here's my example - a brief snippet of an unfinished Herbie-esque Rhodes ditty. I used Logic's "Fat EQ" and "Limiter" plug-ins to achieve this. I don't know if it's that punchy, but it sure is fat. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15045839/Lowrider.mp3
yes! supafunk!! i'm loving this thread.
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