Serious live electronic backtracking

[Diantre]

Get an MPC 1000, they're under 1000 used and have 6 outputs and the converters are good.

You can only get up to 128MB of RAM tho, so you'd have to work in looped sections as putting multi channel full 5 min + tracks would fill the memory pretty fast.

[Kiwi]

I checked into this recently, and it is totally frustrating that nobody has made a decent product for this obvious hole in the market.

The MPC is history. Way too limited for streaming audio. And the new ones are simply controlers for a PC ... wasted opportunity. Forget MPC.

What I need is good streaming audio - preferably more than 2 channels - and midi. MIDI is essential, for controlling fx processors and whatever else - not even thinking about lighting, but that should be high on any product developers list too ...

As a temporary step i've bought an Alesis io dock for my iPad2 ... haven't used this in anger yet, so it may be wasted exercise.

I've come to the conclusion that the best live solution as of today would be a Mac Mini with a solid state drive, racked up (they are so small and cute - and with solid state drives they should be silent and robust). I think the new thunderbolt UAD interface would be nice paired with this - but afaik the thunderbolt bit is vaporware at this stage.

[robotomy]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I checked into this recently, and it is totally frustrating that nobody has made a decent product for this obvious hole in the market.

I agreed with you!!!

We have used a MacBook in the past connected with a MOTU 828 Firewire multichannel interface but we have experienced too many problems.
We have also replaced the laptop with a new one 2 times (first time with another newer MacBook, 2nd time with a strictly dedicated laptop PC... incredibly this last one have been the best of the 3, but not enough best....).

Now we need a dedicated platform, if we'll be forced to go back with computers it will be a real problem.
I hope that some manufacturer will understand this issue but the market now is focused on iDevices and Computer controllers cause low profile end users (which are the bigger part of the market ...) have not yet understood that playing music seriously needs dedicated music instruments. Computers are goods for many things including producing, editing and mastering music and also for djing but not for serious live playing. This is my experience and opinion.

[deft_bonz]

So you guys wouldn't recommend syncing a laptop with a decent converter?

I was thinking about it. I use two Korg ESX sequencers plus a Nord Modular. But for some things this way I'm very limited. At the same time I don't want to end up as a laptop musician, I just love to play with real hardware. That's why I was thinking about syncin the laptop via MIDI clock to my sequencers and throw some special sounds, vocals, etc. into my music.

[tvsky]

theres nothing wrong with the r16 dacs and your not going to get huge jump in sound quality from other low/mid level converters

however in regards to splitting your audio out on seperate channels something like the alesis hd24 might be a good option

[robotomy]

Check this:

Seelake AudioStation - Overview

It's a superspecialized windows machine but it have been developed exactly for music live performing.
What's your opinion?

[deft_bonz]

Originally Posted by robotomy

Check this:

Seelake AudioStation - Overview

It's a superspecialized windows machine but it have been developed exactly for music live performing.
What's your opinion?

It looks good, but I really wonder how the latency is for softsynths. Especially for the CPU hungry ones.

[clixor]

Perhaps an unlikely suggestion, but have you thought about the Elektron Octatrack? You can stream directly from sdcard and it has multiple outs.

[we88]

The octatrack can work for.

[we88]

.....you

[moliere]

korg d888. seems to do exactly what you want.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by robotomy

My band plays electronic rock music and we use to play with some backing tracks with filtered electro basslines, synth sequences and fx.
Currently we use a ZOOM R16 to play backing tracks. We send the metronome click signal to our drummer by the R16 headphones channel (R16 built in metronome function).

We have 2 main problems:

1) The Zoom have 1 stereo output only so we have experienced problems when connecting to some PA systems. By playing basses, leads, rhythmic sounds and other stuff on the same output channel there is no way to control separately equalization and volume from the mixing console and this can introduce sound quality problems during live gigs.

2) The DAC on the R16 is not so good and the sound quality is quite poor for a serious music performance. Probably this device have been studied for mobile recording at home user level and not for live performance.
We are looking for a solution by avoiding the use of laptops. In the past we have used laptops (PC and MAC) but we have experienced too many problems. With a dedicated hardware the situation is extremely more reliable and safe.

I have checked the Joeco devices which seem to be perfect for these purposes but the price range is too high, we have a budget of about 1,500$, Joeco units start from 2,500$ and more.

I have also checked for the AKAI MPC-5000 but I’m not really sure it can be used for our purposes. Probably the sound quality is better, MPC are live gig oriented units and it has multiple output channels but I have some doubts about the project/files handlings for backing tracks of this machine.

I would like to have the opinion and suggestions from someone experienced on this matter.

first..you need perfect produced backings..than they sound right on any system... means...perfecrt spectral and dynamic balanced..like on a top record production not the rehersal room rough mix.. and the arrangement needs space..in ideal you see the silence between the events in the waveform editor... evrything thats drone like can be easily produced live.. its the hradcore sequencer stuff that you cant play life thats from interest in a backing.. ... as soon you dont let them do more than act as another musican on stage the foh mixer during an performance has complete control.. so any additional voice in the backing is reducing that control..so as less voices on the backing as better...

[robotomy]

Originally Posted by we88

The octatrack can work for.

The Octatrack is an interesting device but there is one main limit which won't make it the final choice for us:
It has 4 mono outputs (2 stereo) + headphones but it cannot route a metronome signal to the headphones channel only so we must spend 1 out channel for a metronome click track for the drummer.
We use stereo tracks so the final result is that we still have 1 stereo output channel available only, exactly like now.

I'm agreed with Audioconsult, the backing tracks quality is critical for a good live performance. We try to produce our bt with the maximum care.
We don't play backing vocals through the bt, we play just FX and electronic sequences which cannot be played by human musicians.
Whan I say that the Zoom R16 audio quality is not so good could be a subjective sentence but in any case this device doesn'allows a truly versatile control on the audio tracks, there is not any equalizer or routing capability available.

Korg D888 is an old piece of hardware and it's no longer supported by manufacturer. Currently there is not replacement on Korg catalogue.

[subhertz]

I dont know the Octatrack, but It occurs to me that your main reason for discounting it is maybe shortsighted, or rather, you cant see the wood for the trees....
Why does the metronome for the drummer have to come from audio out of Octatrack, or whatever device you choose.
If it includes a midi sequencer, a miditrack could be used to give the drummer a pulse via some midi sound generator....
Your alesis docked ipad, for example.

However,worth noting , a brief scan of R16 features shows it has 96khz/24 bit DAC, whereas Octatrack 44khz/24bit .

[robotomy]

Originally Posted by subhertz

If it includes a midi sequencer, a miditrack could be used to give the drummer a pulse via some midi sound generator....
Your alesis docked ipad, for example.

However,worth noting , a brief scan of R16 features shows it has 96khz/24 bit DAC, whereas Octatrack 44khz/24bit .

R16 is 44KHz/24bit just like Octatrack.

Sending MIDI clock to a MIDI sound generator is a good tip.
The reason we have not taken it in consideration till now is simply avoiding too much gear to be settled. Too complicated setups are not the solution. In any case I can consider this option. Thank you.

[subhertz]

Glad the idea is a useful alternative that widens your possibilities by not limiting " metronome" to mean audio out.
It occurred to me that if the Octatrack had a tempo track in song mode, it would allow you to program some tempo variance into your songs with the midi metronome following in time., I'm assuming this wasnt possible with R16.

If I understand the octatrack right, it may also allow you more realtime control over arrangements, in as much as if your backing tracks are loaded as triggerrable samples as opposed to linear audio which I also imagine was R16 scenario,
Maybe you could be triggering different sections on the fly in impro mode.

Not necessarily trying to sell you the Octatrack though. As an ipad neo-semi fan boy I would suggest you see how far you could get with that.I have begun a few tests to see how it could be used live. Both Beatmaker and NanoStudio seem to handle
@300 Mb of samples per song, with quick loading ( ten x 3 min linear tracks) in my first test treating them as linear tracks. If cut up into sections and looped to minimise repetition of identical parts, as you would in a sampler, much more mileage could be gained of course.
Whilst multi outputs arent quite here yet for the ipad, they're on the way with interface manufacturers adding ios coreaudio functionality to products and app developers beginning to code for this. But both Beatmaker and Nanostudio have internal eq and fx which may do the job for you..Beatmaker can send midi out for metronome and Nanostudio should be adding midiout soon.
Might be worth trying as you have the ipad,and costs very little. Dont know how reliable it will be for live, its early days with the apps and firmwares,but thats why we need to test it out.If only maybe to see if triggering on the fly works as a technique, to know to include this functionality in your subsequent hardware search.

[golden beers]

http://www.clickkicker.com/

[robotomy]

Originally Posted by subhertz

Glad the idea is a useful alternative that widens your possibilities by not limiting " metronome" to mean audio out.
It occurred to me that if the Octatrack had a tempo track in song mode, it would allow you to program some tempo variance into your songs with the midi metronome following in time., I'm assuming this wasnt possible with R16.

If I understand the octatrack right, it may also allow you more realtime control over arrangements, in as much as if your backing tracks are loaded as triggerrable samples as opposed to linear audio which I also imagine was R16 scenario,
Maybe you could be triggering different sections on the fly in impro mode.

Not necessarily trying to sell you the Octatrack though. As an ipad neo-semi fan boy I would suggest you see how far you could get with that.I have begun a few tests to see how it could be used live. Both Beatmaker and NanoStudio seem to handle
@300 Mb of samples per song, with quick loading ( ten x 3 min linear tracks) in my first test treating them as linear tracks. If cut up into sections and looped to minimise repetition of identical parts, as you would in a sampler, much more mileage could be gained of course.
Whilst multi outputs arent quite here yet for the ipad, they're on the way with interface manufacturers adding ios coreaudio functionality to products and app developers beginning to code for this. But both Beatmaker and Nanostudio have internal eq and fx which may do the job for you..Beatmaker can send midi out for metronome and Nanostudio should be adding midiout soon.
Might be worth trying as you have the ipad,and costs very little. Dont know how reliable it will be for live, its early days with the apps and firmwares,but thats why we need to test it out.If only maybe to see if triggering on the fly works as a technique, to know to include this functionality in your subsequent hardware search.

We use already an iPad to play some introduction tracks between our songs.
To do this we use a Dj mixing app. We have an Alesis iPad docking to manage i/o like in a "real" instrument.
This solution is pretty but sincerely is still a little far to be a "professional instrument" replacement. There are still some issues to be settled other than multiple output.
May be in the future this will be a great choice but now I prefer to go with dedicated hardware.
Octatrack is a really good device and I'm studying now deeply its features cause it would be a good update to our current setup by adding an external MIDI metronome.

The Click Kicker is a solution but also the Boss DB90 (BOSS Corporation - Backing & Rhythm » DB-90) can do this job and it's cheaper.

[kylejoethompson]

Ok, I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the above or not.
Does anyone know how to make BACKTRACKS run STEREO?
Please help!

I use Logic Pro Studio 9 and have a PreSonus AudioBox. My best guess would be to somehow have my backing tracks coming out of the stereo L and R outputs on the AudioBox. The tricky part would be trying to make the click track come out of the phones output and not the stereo outputs. If anyone knows how to do this, or has a different method of making backtracks run as stereo rather than the traditional (stero split into mono) method please get back to me!