Analog / Value gear?

[Eric J]

Nice, I'll check it out. Thanks for the suggestion!

[audioconsult]

also not bad..

TAC scorpio should be possible to get for around 1000... not as beefy as the tascam in the low end but better routing and i liked the eq´s more.. more service friendly than the tascam..

[Meow]

Originally Posted by audioconsult

i use this one for my 303.. they go often below 100

ibanez RM 80

Thanks for this!!!

I've been wanting to find a cheap mixer that fits in a rack and not only that I love the color scheme!

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by Eric J

Sorry if this is kind of a dumb question, but what exactly do you mean by "direct outputs"? Don't all analog mixers have direct outputs?

Direct output means that the signal is tapped before the channel fader.
So basically all channels have outputs.
This way you can just use the mic/line amps (and maybe EQ as well) from a channel without the signal going through the whole desk...

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by audioconsult

also not bad..

TAC scorpio should be possible to get for around 1000... not as beefy as the tascam in the low end but better routing and i liked the eq´s more.. more service friendly than the tascam..

I would stay away from the Scorpio...these are often been used as FOH mixers and thus have seen heavy use.

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Direct output means that the signal is tapped before the channel fader.
So basically all channels have outputs.
This way you can just use the mic/line amps (and maybe EQ as well) from a channel without the signal going through the whole desk...

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by audioconsult

also not bad..

do you know about the Studiomaster P7? I was recommended one as a decent cheap mixer - the only thing is I need info on the EQ as I want a functional EQ to mix OTB...cant find a manual anywhere...

Also - any thoughts on the new Allen and Heath Zed R16? I am strongly considering one...

Anyone else looking at low cost desks - others have recommended DDA interface - and Soundtracs Topaz...

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by GYang

The whole trick is not about warmth at all.
The biggest BS on GS.

It's a big forum, there's lots of BS floating around.
Look at this link I just picked up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkFg-4Xh_I
technically that's more HS than BS.

Originally Posted by GYang

It is about giving right space in the mix, it is about signal integrity and finer resolution of signal reflections that all together create 'right feel and proportion of space and atmosphere'.
Distorting signals hardly achieve any of aforesaid.
Hybrid setup (OTB+ITB) is generally OK, as long as, whole input signal chain is right and if multiple signals summing happen in way that results as pleasant and natural to human hearing perception.
High-end analogue leads here on both ends (input and summing), few high quality AD-DA conversions and tracking are OK with reasonable digital manipulation.

'right feel and proportion of space and atmosphere'.
Yes, I agree with that. The sound and composition must go hand in hand.

ITB/OTB/hybrid: Who still records everything on tape? Most of us have a digital recorder (DAW). Good converters, yes. But with the right production, midrange converters can be used as well. The ratio money/quality flattens out the more it costs: For every 2x improvement in high end, you have to invest 10x the cost, while for every 2x improvement in low end you have to invest 2x the cost. What is your converters? Are those the best you know?

Yes, the (analogue) chain is as good as the weakest link. Analogue gear needs maintenance, to keep it functioning properly. Cheap gear can be replaced easily, but doesn't give satisfactory results IME. Someone on a tight budget should use software, and learn how to use that well. If you have 5K to spend, and already have converters and monitors, IMO get a little Studer (or something like it), and one good compressor and reverb.

Originally Posted by GYang

Of course, unpleasant digital track/mix will become less unpleasant by 'warming-up' (read distorting transients, phase etc.), but it will never become exactly right one.

There is no "magic box" to fix terrible music. Shit in shit out.

Originally Posted by GYang

Massive emphasis to controlled distortion aka 'warming' is more-less bluff well supported/created by some journalists, equipment manufacturers, gears dealers and forum hobbists proud to own some 'piece of recording history'.

I get your point: Pimps try to sell their products; "magic character" gear, while 20 years ago engineers dumped their "character gear" like that V475 for clean digital. It's all a bit extreme to me though: Get some stuff you like, to make music with, something that sounds good to you, and learn it inside out. Have some fun. FWIW I started to appreciate some gear, which does have a colour, better when I got my first really good mixer (Xtramix), because it is so clean. Better than the desk before that, which was hazy on all channels (caps dried up & many TL072 in the signal path).
There are some amazing bargains in gear now, studios folding, ppl. giving up the profession, retiring, hobbyists getting into family etc.

I'd love to get some converter that sounds REALLY good though, I'm not unhappy with the FF800, but it's midrange quality. Maybe I should sell some of the many Eqs and the FF800 and get a 8x192 Mytek? A Prism? I don't know... First make some music, instead of typing.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

do you know about the Studiomaster P7? I was recommended one as a decent cheap mixer - the only thing is I need info on the EQ as I want a functional EQ to mix OTB...cant find a manual anywhere...

Also - any thoughts on the new Allen and Heath Zed R16? I am strongly considering one...

Anyone else looking at low cost desks - others have recommended DDA interface - and Soundtracs Topaz...

dont kow this model but it will be better than a behringer or mackie.
allmost any desk is.. but not any desk is better than itb mixing.. usually all the low budget desks are a bit weak.. small dda or soundtracks dont appeal to me

zed r 16 is ok for a cheap small modern desk..

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by Reptil

If you have 5K to spend, and already have converters and monitors, IMO get a little Studer (or something like it), and one good compressor and reverb.

What, in your opinion, would be that one good compressor and one good reverb? (I probably only have about 2K or so to spend).

I've already got Focal Twin 6's fed by Apogee Converters (Rosetta), so I feel pretty confident in those areas.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Pimps try to sell their products; "magic character" gear, while 20 years ago engineers dumped their "character gear" like that V475 for clean digital.

no ..they dont dumped it.. just some officer like state tv and theater soundengineers wanted the benefits of total recall to have more opportunities to sleep at work.. Beside nobody cares there so much about sound colours really as long it works...

Neumann desks was only in tv stations and public theaters/concert halls..
private studios went for the way cheaper amek and ssl consoles and havent spend a million on a 2 tons neumann, that needed to fullfill the german broadcast standards.. good thing about the construction thou.. you can place a running cellphone on the desk during a recording session without getting any interference..

when they got exchanged after their regular usage time by the state facilities they straight went into music production circles where they are in use up to today.. just very few of the desks and consoles surrived.. thanks to their massive weight they mostly was cut into single modules from which the mic pres and eq´s was highest in demand.. only later some people realized that the summing amps and output stages are good too.. but most of them went into the rubbish together with the monster frames and their hydraulic lift mechanisms.


technically and soundquality wise these modules dont have to hide behind api´s and are therefore up to date and well asked.

[Meow]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Get some stuff you like, to make music with, something that sounds good to you, and learn it inside out.

This is exactly what I'm doing and I have so much fun it's stupid! I actually don't even worry about getting new gear for sound quality right now, the only stuff I want is just for fun really. If I were to say that I need better gear right now cause I can't make mine sound any better than it does would be foolish cause in like 2 months I've already made the same stuff I had sound waaaay better!! Heck it might be years before I can't make it any better!!

In fact all my friends think there's something wrong with me because I don't do anything anymore LOL and I used to be quite the socialite! Now I just get out of class and sit down with my little world of music basically until I go to sleep.

I literally forgot to eat two nights ago



Yet again you are dead on in my opinion Reppy!

[Reptil]

Eric J: off the top of my head
for mixing
reverb:
Kurzweil Rumour
Lexicon MPX-100 with Jim Williams mod (secondhand, he doesn't offer this anymore AFAIK)
Lexicon LPX-15 II with Jim Williams mod
Lexicon PCM-80
Sony R7

compressors too many to name, but I know these are useful, no nonsense sound, preferred secondhand, do a search there's a recent thread about compressors
Urei JBL 7110 (pair)
DBX 160a (pair)
Urei LA12 LA22
GSSL (DIY SSL buscompressor)
BSS DPR-402
Ashly SC-55 (I have the gate, there's TL072 in there that can be exchanged for a cleaner sound)
There's some great API 500 compressor modules out there as well...

thanks Meow *blush*

[Reptil]

now you've done it, talking about this it seems we share an interest in gear ..

Originally Posted by audioconsult

no ..they dont dumped it.. just some officer like state tv and theater soundengineers wanted the benefits of total recall to have more opportunities to sleep at work.. Beside nobody cares there so much about sound colours really as long it works...

Neumann desks was only in tv stations and public theaters/concert halls..
private studios went for the way cheaper amek and ssl consoles and havent spend a million on a 2 tons neumann, that needed to fullfill the german broadcast standards..

That's why I love that "old" broadcast gear: It's made without cost specifications. The ZDF, NDR, ADR etc. ordered stepped equalisers, so, there were stepped equalisers. They wanted redundant replacement DURING OPERATION. (take a broken module out during the recording and put a new one in) so everything had transformer balanced i/o and regulated PSU and perfect grounding sceme etc. zero ohm technology is/was expensive but it solved a lot of problems that plagued other desks, like voltage drops under load, grounding etc..
The sound had to be clean, and no surprises or strange quirks, no funny business, so they ordered exactly that.
This was "built to order", not retail.
After 1991 or so, it all fell apart. Budgets were cut, gear had to be "cost-effective". DIGITALLY controlled gear entered the picture, with electronic balancing. Great engineering achievement but worthless if you only want 4 channels, because you have to get the desk computer as well etc. Some engineers stuck to what they liked best and thats why they kept on ordering EAB and Geiling consoles. look here
If you want NEW stuff like that, you have to go to companies like ADT, which, to my knowledge are the only ones making european analogue desks in this tradition.

This is often not highlighted on Gearslutz, since most ppl. on here are music professionals from the USA (not broadcast), and so focussed more on API, Neve, and other goodies.

Originally Posted by audioconsult

good thing about the construction thou.. you can place a running cellphone on the desk during a recording session without getting any interference..

when they got exchanged after their regular usage time by the state facilities they straight went into music production circles where they are in use up to today.. just very few of the desks and consoles surrived.. thanks to their massive weight they mostly was cut into single modules from which the mic pres and eq´s was highest in demand.. only later some people realized that the summing amps and output stages are good too..

Yes, the cutting and cannibalising of these big desks is a sad story.
EQ like this really shine when there's 16 channels. Two modules is good enough to master on. IMAGINE 96 channels!

Originally Posted by audioconsult

but most of them went into the rubbish together with the monster frames and their hydraulic lift mechanisms.

HA!! see, that's what I mean. Most gear I bought was from retired engineers, who rescued these modules from the trashbin, or from people that bougth these from those retired engineers in the nineties.
Broadcast is all digital now. It looks wow but I'm not interested.

Originally Posted by audioconsult

technically and soundquality wise these modules dont have to hide behind api´s and are therefore up to date and well asked.

I'll say more: technically these modules are BETTER constructed with BETTER parts than 70% of all highend gear out there, save a few mastering quality equipments.
Granted an API or Neve has more "character" than a Neumann or BFE. But technically, and to engineering specifications.. broadcast gear is fine.

IMO the combination of both is nice, clean and "character".
if you hunt you pay less. if you are lazy you pay more.

[Eric J]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Eric J: off the top of my head
for mixing
reverb:
Kurzweil Rumour
Lexicon MPX-100 with Jim Williams mod (secondhand, he doesn't offer this anymore AFAIK)
Lexicon LPX-15 II with Jim Williams mod
Lexicon PCM-80
Sony R7

compressors too many to name, but I know these are useful, no nonsense sound, preferred secondhand, do a search there's a recent thread about compressors
Urei JBL 7110 (pair)
DBX 160a (pair)
Urei LA12 LA22
GSSL (DIY SSL buscompressor)
BSS DPR-402
Ashly SC-55 (I have the gate, there's TL072 in there that can be exchanged for a cleaner sound)
There's some great API 500 compressor modules out there as well...

thanks Meow *blush*

Awesome! Thanks for these recommendations. I'll look into each of these devices on here.

[audioconsult]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Granted an API or Neve has more "character" than a Neumann or BFE. But technically, and to engineering specifications.. broadcast gear is fine.

the older telefunken or siemens stuff is more in the color department because they was there already in valve times and theire first solid state units had to convince soundengineers that was used to valve equipment.. so some of these older transistor designs sound more like valve amps than modern valve gear. later the get cleaner than to compete with the new neuman designs that was on the rise back than.

the telefunken v672 is one of my faves.. its also still rather cheap and designed as universal amp module..

so it can be used as preamp with up to 50 db gain.. summing amp.. 1to 4 distribution amp thanks to its twin output transfomers with split coils..

a very nice module that still goes for under 200.- euros the unit..

but again the oldest ones are the best..

[Meow]

Is any of this stuff available in the US for cheap??

None of this surprises me at all actually, my great grandpa was a bomber pilot in WW2 and immediately after the war he moved to Germany and lived their till his 40s and helped them rebuild some of their manufacturing facilities and stuff. Anyway he always told us that German engineering was the absolute best in the world period. He said that's why BMW and Mercedes and such gained such an awesome reputation everywhere, because they were so thorough and absolute in their engineering and testing procedures and stuff.

So knowing that it doesn't surprise me one bit that some of the best audio gear in the world would be German engineered!

But, does any of it ever make it over to crapville (aka the US)? To be honest I've only ever heard of 2 of the companies you guys were talking about.

[audioconsult]

most of the modules are in the us by now..and japan.. just brought more money there.. but in the moment the dollar is pretty weak.. so we rather keep them here :-))

[audslu]

Originally Posted by GYang

The whole trick is not about warmth at all.
The biggest BS on GS.
It is about giving right space in the mix, it is about signal integrity and finer resolution of signal reflections that all together create 'right feel and proportion of space and atmosphere'.
Distorting signals hardly achieve any of aforesaid.
Hybrid setup (OTB+ITB) is generally OK, as long as, whole input signal chain is right and if multiple signals summing happen in way that results as pleasant and natural to human hearing perception.
High-end analogue leads here on both ends (input and summing), few high quality AD-DA conversions and tracking are OK with reasonable digital manipulation.
Of course, unpleasant digital track/mix will become less unpleasant by 'warming-up' (read distorting transients, phase etc.), but it will never become exactly right one.
Massive emphasis to controlled distortion aka 'warming' is more-less bluff well supported/created by some journalists, equipment manufacturers, gears dealers and forum hobbists proud to own some 'piece of recording history'.

haha This

So we re back to where it begun: "it's just the monkey turning the knobs"

It's a psychological thing, we try to get rid of the itb sound, distortion helps to mask the digital accuracy and clean sound, getting some more harmonics in every track, that's all. Little things make the difference.

Digital is too clean and unforgiving, then we try to make it a little more lofi, same thing all over the place. If you know what happens to audio passing through consoles and vintange gear you may actually emulate that up to certain point itb, i m quite happy with the results but i always want to progress even more! Itb takes time and dedication for each mix, totally different workflow, pita you could say or drop the $$ for analog goodies.

.....Some yammy recomendations above

@op if you want nice transformer sound in an affortable stereo box check this too: Vintech 1272 remember from page 1? (someone else posted using it) I ve heard mixes through this box and i though that's too much! It will do nicely in individual tracks.

Also the nice di, is it any good anyone heard it?

[allhazardsadam]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

Also - any thoughts on the new Allen and Heath Zed R16? I am strongly considering one...

I'd recommend it highly. The pre's on it are great, but my favorite part is the EQ. I would say these two components have really added a lot of life to my synths, drums, etc. Plus if you raise the master gain on your mixes you can get a really warm sound. Drums are extremely punchy through it.

[Fred_Abstract]

sum evrything to a culture vulture mastering plus,versatile valves and transformers saturation.
it offer from almost transparent to very colored sound, it can also give you wider open sound on top of nice control on transients and dynamics, it make sound you pass into it sound right ! you dont have to use it in a obious way like a effect, it's first a great mixing tool for electronic music

[Fordy]

I was thinking about using this between my mixer and PC:



But I haven't found any suitable cables with which to hook it up (RCA & Banana Jacks) but I haven't been looking too hard, too busy with other things. Not even sure if the thing is suitable.

Full details here.

[bluegreengold]

The drawmer DS201 is a cost effective way to add more than a few analog tricks to flat digital sounds. You can even make a casio pop.

[rein]

Bit off topic but... Any thoughts on the sound quality of a Tascam M-224 desk?