Sounds from Roland Paraphonic 505 and Jupiter 4

[jrakarl]

Hello everyone,


The question is, can I make the sounds available (in particular the strings) on the paraphonic, on the Jupiter 4?

I have a Jupiter 4 and love it. It's wound up on more of my recordings than any of my other synths, including Prophet 5.
I spotted this string synth the 505 on eBay and am tempted to invest in this synth. This was produced by Roland around the same time as the Jupiter 4 (1978).

My Jupiter is at my repairer / serice guy's and has been for a month or two now, so I'm looking for someone with hands on experience with both synths to tell me if the Jupiter can sound like the paraphonic. Any help appreciated.

I have a JD990 with vintage synth card as well, so I do already have the Solena string samples on that. However when I've used a Solena in the past, the horn sounds were the ones I found most amazing... and maybe the paraphonic will have similar outstanding tones. I could waffle on.. your thoughts on these synths would be appreciated.

[Mr Arkadin]

I have a Jupiter-4 and JD-990 with string card also. I don't know how objective I can be as the Paraphonic is one of those pieces of kit I always aspired to own one day (I had the same aspiration for the JP-4 and Moog Taurus and eventually got them).

I love the sound and look of that era in Roland. The giveaway is that it's called 'paraphonic' which means that a JP-4 probably isn't going to sound much like it. Unlike the JP-4 which has a board per voice, the paraphonics all go through one filter and one amplifier.

If they hadn't got so expensive (like everything else) I would probably get one - although they are rather huge.

[acreil]

They're very different.

[djugel]

Yeah.. those two are not related... Jupiter 4 is closest to the SH-7 actually..

Ah.. I miss my SH-7 & RS-505 combo...

[jrakarl]

Hello everyone,

Wow, thank you for all your responses. I'm tempted.. very temped.

Problem is, this year I've already laid down cash for a new guitar and am still paying off a new 'old' large format console.. lol . Gear slut indeed!

Still, the beauty of this type of synth is the more 'fixed' possibilities .. rather than huge sound design of many of my other synths...

Anyone else with thoughts, I'd still appreciate them, as my mind isn't set yet.

[AnalogGuy]

That's damn cheap! In europe they goes sometimes even for more than 1000 euros! Paraphonic is really one of the finest string machines out there! It contains quadruple bbd chorus for wide stereo sound (2 per channel) and even contains input for the chorus!

Here's clip how it does sound like:

[cpie]

Have you tried the ubermod plugin from valhalla - I'd give that a go on the raw waveforms from the Jupiter (maybe with Jups ensemble on too).
Its the nicest ensemble effect plugin I've come across.

[Space Station]

It will be a great addition. Whilst solina like, tonally it doesnt sound the same..it also has a much wider pallette of sounds and it's stereo..the bass section is fantastic too. Great synth, i'll never sell mine. The only thing a JP4 shares is it's case and keybed.

[Futureman84]

I've got a few string machines (Eminent Solina, Korg Lambda, Arp Omni) & a JUP4.
(And 2 of my band mates each have a VP330)

I'd pick a Arp Omni for sheer versatility and power.. such a cool and wonky string synth. And the way the envelope re-triggers can make for some serious fun.

[I realise a Arp Omni wasn't mentioned, but currently that guy is rocking my world]

[Space Station]

Honestly, on pure power and functionality the RS-505 eats the Arp Omni. It's also a lot more reliable, with much better build quality. But of course if you want the sound of the Arp Omni then you have no choice but to buy one(although the Solina is extremely close).

I should add...forget any notion the RS-505 sounds the same as the VP-330 strings. The RS-505 trounces it on strings alone, it is a dedicated string machine with a basic synth section and bass synth.

[acreil]

Originally Posted by Space Station

I should add...forget any notion the RS-505 sounds the same as the VP-330 strings. The RS-505 trounces it on strings alone, it is a dedicated string machine with a basic synth section and bass synth.

The string section circuits are actually very similar between the RS-505 and VP-330 (and RS-09 for that matter). They're just adjusted a little differently.

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by cpie

Have you tried the ubermod plugin from valhalla - I'd give that a go on the raw waveforms from the Jupiter (maybe with Jups ensemble on too).
Its the nicest ensemble effect plugin I've come across.

The 4TapEnsemble mode in ValhallaÜberMod is based on the VP330 ensemble circuitry. 2 delay taps per channel, with slow triangle "antiphase" modulation for each channel, a fast vibrato oscillator per channel, and the rates and depths of modulation differenting per channel based on the resistor values in the VP330. I haven't heard a 505, but you could probably dial in the sound by adjusting the rate and depth of the slow and fast modulation. I'll also look for the 505 service manual, to see if I can match the Paraphonic mod rates/depths.

In order to simulate a string ensemble sound on an analog polysynth with ÜberMod (or with any other external ensemble effect), you would want to use 1 oscillator per voice, with a sawtooth or fixed pulse wave. No PWM, no chorusing, as this will add flanging to the sound that you won't hear in a "real" string ensemble. Of course, if you like that flanging, go for it.

There is a free ÜberMod demo, so you can try this out. Unfortunately, I don't have any Jupiters here to try this out with. I am still kicking myself that I didn't buy the one I saw in a Palo Alto music shop in 1996. They wanted $399, which seemed a little high at the time.

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by acreil

The string section circuits are actually very similar between the RS-505 and VP-330 (and RS-09 for that matter). They're just adjusted a little differently.

The string circuits aren't 'very similar' (although admittedly my forte is not studying circuits(got music to make)).. So you must surely be talking about the ensemble circuits.

The RS-09 uses a big old organ divider IC(S10430?) unlike the discrete circuit in the RS-505 for instance.

Whatever the case tonally they sound nothing like each other...even the envelopes are totally different...

[jrakarl]

Thank you everyone,

There's some awesome info here .. (keep it coming if you can).

Analoguy, that clip is probably the best clip for demoing the 505 that I've seen - and I've seen a few in the last 24 hours.

Yes, I'm definately getting the feeling about the comparison between the two.. and already wondering how I can justify buying it..

That aside, any other info comparing the 505 with the solena would be most welcome. Strings and brass. I'm also interested in the circuitry.

Hi cpie - I don't tend to use plugs at all - I have extensive outboard and if I wanted to use a PC for sound design, I'd go whole hog.. as it is.. I have enough synths to keep me occupied without deliving into plug/computer world. Thank you for the thought though.

[acreil]

Originally Posted by Space Station

The string circuits aren't 'very similar' (although admittedly my forte is not studying circuits(got music to make)).. So you must surely be talking about the ensemble circuits.

Well I'm not pulling out the service manuals now, or my own notes, but yes I was talking about the ensemble circuits. From memory, at least, they're nearly identical between the RS-09 and RS-505. Some of the controls might be different but I think the LFO rates and levels and delay times are the same.

As far as the RS-505 versus VP-330, I think they share the basic architecture (dividers and everything). The biggest difference (for the string section/ensemble), is the vibrato. The vibrato in the VP-330 is actually an additional BBD. IIRC when the ensemble is on, the vibrato and non-vibrato signals are sent to different ensemble BBDs. And the delay is still in the signal path when the vibrato depth is zero, so this results in some additional coloration. Effectively the vibrato is a part of the VP-330's ensemble circuit, and it's an interesting effect when the delayed vibrato is used. Other than that, the VP-330's LFO rates and levels are turned up to be somewhat more intense (I suspect to make the human voice filters sound more "realistic"). And again I think the RS-505 offers additional controls.

The RS-101 and RS-202 aren't related. It's just the RS-09, RS-505 and VP-330 (and possibly SA-09) that use this topology. It's quite different from every other string ensemble or chorus effect.

I built something in Pure Data that models all of these (the VP-330 vocal filters also), but I ended up preferring some that I designed from scratch. It's much more useful to adjust the chorus depth in cents, and derive the delay modulation depth from that. And random modulation is more interesting than a fixed rate.

[cpie]

Originally Posted by jrakarl

Thank you everyone,


Hi cpie - I don't tend to use plugs at all - I have extensive outboard and if I wanted to use a PC for sound design, I'd go whole hog.. as it is.. I have enough synths to keep me occupied without deliving into plug/computer world. Thank you for the thought though.

Hi - no probs - thought that could be the case - at least its an option for recording etc if youre using a computer.
Hope your jupiter comes back in good health - just had mine fixed too..he did a tune up as well and now its too perfect...going to have to get the screwdriver out I think

[AnalogGuy]

Since I own real RS-505 and I also have raw samples from VP-330, I will post comparison of single notes soon so you can hear if there's differences between of them.

[jrakarl]

Originally Posted by acreil

Well I'm not pulling out the service manuals now, or my own notes ...

As far as the RS-505 versus VP-330, I think they share the basic architecture (dividers and everything). The biggest difference (for the string section/ensemble)....

And this is why I LOVE gearslutz. Thsnk you all for putting in your views, expertise and advice.

I'm keen to buy this now. I was thinking it would pair up well with the Jupiter - a 1978 rig. But I'm now seeing other good match ups across my sound pallet sources:
505 & Oberheim OB1, or the 505 with the filtered Rhodes on the Kurzweil K250, or even matched with some sounds out of the CZ1000.

Yes, the Jupiter is getting tuning re-calibrated. It's been at the shop for a while. I doubt it will come back "too perfect" lol ... :-)


Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com

[jrakarl]

Originally Posted by AnalogGuy

Since I own real RS-505 and I also have raw samples from VP-330, I will post comparison of single notes soon so you can hear if there's differences between of them.

That would be great !

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com

[AnalogGuy]

Originally Posted by jrakarl

That would be great !

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com

Here's the comparison as I promised. Originally I always wanted VP-330 but there were no any for sale so instead I managed to buy RS-505 from my friend which is ironically much rarer than VP-330.

I only now noticed that the samples of VP-330 I have were different mainly because they were EQ'd to be comfortable with samplers... so I also adjusted the RS-505 closer to the VP-330 samples to have better comparison. I still think I didn't get same tone color but it's enough.

I was right as before: The basic sound is 90% same (you can even adjust ensemble tone color from the big trimmer located in the rear) and the main difference is only the chorus ensemble. In VP-330 it's thicker and therefore a bit fatter. Perhaps it's also because of the vibrato effect previously mentioned? I have no access to real VP-330 so I can't make 100% sure comparison but I think closer than this it can't be. I also read from somewhere that Human choir sound even uses additional BBD circuit separated from the strings?

[ttown23]

Originally Posted by cpie

Have you tried the ubermod plugin from valhalla - I'd give that a go on the raw waveforms from the Jupiter (maybe with Jups ensemble on too).
Its the nicest ensemble effect plugin I've come across.

Yep, this is what I'm using for the purpose of ensemble-type effects. It's a bit tricky to get it set up just how I like with the delays and such, but sounds nearly as good as the ensemble on my Korg polysix... nearly!

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by AnalogGuy

Here's the comparison as I promised. Originally I always wanted VP-330 but there were no any for sale so instead I managed to buy RS-505 from my friend which is ironically much rarer than VP-330.

I only now noticed that the samples of VP-330 I have were different mainly because they were EQ'd to be comfortable with samplers... so I also adjusted the RS-505 closer to the VP-330 samples to have better comparison. I still think I didn't get same tone color but it's enough.

I was right as before: The basic sound is 90% same (you can even adjust ensemble tone color from the big trimmer located in the rear) and the main difference is only the chorus ensemble. In VP-330 it's thicker and therefore a bit fatter. Perhaps it's also because of the vibrato effect previously mentioned? I have no access to real VP-330 so I can't make 100% sure comparison but I think closer than this it can't be. I also read from somewhere that Human choir sound even uses additional BBD circuit separated from the strings?

Thanks for the excellent sound files. To my ears, the modulation intensity sounds greater on the VP330 versus the RS505. This could be a matter of different BBD delay chips, different trim pot settings, or possibly faster LFOs on the VP330. The vibrato component of the VP330 sounded faster to me, while the RS505 sounded a bit more "Vox Humana" (the Polymoog Keyboard preset, versus actual vocal synthesis).

I'll try to duplicate these settings in ÜberMod later tonight, and post the presets here.

I also looked at the schematic for the Jupiter 4 "ensemble" and it looks like it is a 2 delay line chorus, with a single triangle wave LFO (inverted before modulating one of the channels). Much closer to a simple Dimension D than the ensembles in the VP330 and RS505, especially since there is no faster vibrato LFO in the Jupiter 4 chorus circuit.

[acreil]

I found my notes. Don't trust any of this to be accurate. I was less than rigorous and mostly just worked it out from diagrams in the service manual. I didn't do any circuit simulations or make any measurements from the real thing.

VP330:
LFO1: sine, 6.67 Hz
LFO2: triangle, 0.256 Hz
LFO3: sine, 5.71 Hz
LFO4: triangle, 0.217 Hz

BBD_A: 5.275 ms + LFO1 (+/- 0.46 ms) - LFO2 (+/- 2.56 ms)
BBD_B: 5.12 ms + LFO2 (+/- 2.56 ms)
BBD_C: 5.275 ms + LFO3 (+/- 0.46 ms) - LFO4 (+/- 2.56 ms)
BBD_D: 5.12 ms + LFO4 (+/- 2.56 ms)

OUT_L = BBD_A + BBD_B
OUT_R = BBD_C + BBD_D

So for each channel you've got complementary triangle wave modulation on 2 BBDs, with faster sinusoidal modulation added to one.

For the RS-505/09, the sine LFO rates are 4.76 Hz and 5.88 Hz, and the triangle LFO rates are 0.149 Hz and 0.182 Hz. The base delay times are about 6 ms, the triangle modulation depth is 3.79 ms and the sine modulation can be switched on or off (I don't know what the depth is). The RS-505 also adds some feedback (mode III).

I was also partly wrong; it's the vocoder and human voice that go through the vibrato BBDs in the VP330, not the strings.

Anyway if you wanted to, I you could probably convert one to the other just by changing a few resistors.

[Space Station]

Also the MKI VP330 and RS09 use the 8 pin SAD512 BBD IC, the MKII's use the MN3009. I had two SAD512's fail in my MKI VP330...since the 8 pin version is ridiculously hard to find today, I had to use the more common 14 pin variant, although you have to add additional clock circuitry...pain in the butt. The VP-330 MK1 has a lot of circuit differences to the MKII..I have both and the RS-505..

I prefer the MK2..easier to calibrate(MkI has adjustable Vocoder bands internally, MK2 is preset) and a much better keybed. However, sonically not much difference to my ears.

[Batchainpuller78]

Originally Posted by Space Station

Also the MKI VP330 and RS09 use the 8 pin SAD512 BBD IC, the MKII's use the MN3009. I had two SAD512's fail in my MKI VP330...since the 8 pin version is ridiculously hard to find today, I had to use the more common 14 pin variant, although you have to add additional clock circuitry...pain in the butt. The VP-330 MK1 has a lot of circuit differences to the MKII..I have both and the RS-505..

I prefer the MK2..easier to calibrate(MkI has adjustable Vocoder bands internally, MK2 is preset) and a much better keybed. However, onically not much difference to my ears.

note to self, remember this post when that circuit brakes down in the MKI

Ah is the Keybed in the MK2 better?
that's maybe the biggest dislike I have with my VP-330 & RS-505 the keyboards are a bit... wel meh.. too clunky & clicky.
The keyboards on my minimoog & minikorg play ultra fast and smooth.. not so with the Rolands.

The jupiter 4 to me is more in function like a better Juno-6 - 2 voices with more modulation, a much more funky arpeggiator and a beefier sound.

The Paraphonic.. well I got a very nice condition one which I did not pay a lot for.. if I look at ebay prices now, I don't know I wouldn't buy one for that money I think. Although it's capable of some very nice textures, the bass is very full & thick, although with the control inputs & gate & trigger the possibility expands when used with other gear.. (hooking the pitch & vcf up to a sequencer or lfo is pretty cool) the external in for the ensemble is very nice as well. I like it a lot on electric guitar.

I agree with the comments on the Arp Omni vs the 505 I used to have an Omni 2 but the Arp gets a timbre that doesn't come out of the 505 and vice versa.

I just still hope to find a Korg PE at some point