What modules are needed for polyphony in a modular?

[._.]

I'm just trying to understand what models you need to get multiples of to get true polyphony.
When I say true polyphony I mean like in a daw.

Lets say I want a 5 voice, do I need 5 filters, 5 ADSRs, 5 LFOs etc or do I only need, 5 oscillator modules?

Can anyone explain how this works? I want the same sound on 5 keys but obviously different frequencies.

[golden beers]

it depends on the voice architecture you're after... generally, you will need a unique module PER-VOICE all the way..

so 1 voice = 2 oscs + noise + LFO + modulation matrix + filter + filter env + amp + amp env.

so yes all that X5 and synced up perfectly for a 5 note poly synth

[NWSooner]

You might just wait for the TipTop Audio PVCO/PVCF/PVCA/PADSR/PMIX/PLFO/P-MIDI to CV stuff to get released. Looks fantastic and I know I'm going to be picking them up. I emailed Gur and he said he hopes to start shipping at least some of those in about 4-5 months.



Basically each module has 8 VCOs (or VCFs, or VCAs, etc.) and there's a special cable that connects them that allows 8 channels over one cable. The P-MIDI to CV module will convert MIDI information into multiple CV outs, etc.

[Reptil]

5 osc into one filter would suffice, you can also do with only one envelope and VCA, a mixer, to add the oscillators all up before hitting the VCA, and one LFO. you do need something to send pitch to those 5 individual oscillators. so you'll need a CV keyboard with 5 split zones, or, more practical, a midi keyboard and a multi channel midi-cv interface. third and best option would be an Expert Sleepers module (ES-3, ES-4)

but of course in a modular you'd want to max it out, and control envelopes and LFO rates, VCA etc. otherwise you could just as well get a (cheaper) normal polyphonic synthesizer.

check this out
TipTop P3000 polyphonic oscillator module.
MATRIXSYNTH: NAMM: New Tiptop Audio P3000 Poly Oscillator Pics
DUAL ADSRe
Synth Modules | intellijel
threre's some multi filter around now too I believe.. do a search

or.... go the "everything in one" panel
Macbeth Photon, Doepfer a-111-5 or Cwejman VM-1

good thing about a crazy project like building a multi voice modular is that you can do it in stages.
if you're not rich, DIY is certainly an option to consider!

[._.]

Originally Posted by golden beers

it depends on the voice architecture you're after... generally, you will need a unique module PER-VOICE all the way..

so 1 voice = 2 oscs + noise + LFO + modulation matrix + filter + filter env + amp + amp env.

so yes all that X5 and synced up perfectly for a 5 note poly synth

I'm looking at the Macbeth modules since I just love their sound.

There is a dual vco and those I would have to get 5 of of course but what happens with the fuilter backend module, it has ADSR for amp and filter, I want the same ADSR for all notes. but what about the filtering? It would only filter one voice right? In a digital synth does all notes/keys have their own filter or is it just one for the highest note or are all notes sent trought the same filter in some way?

BTW that tiptop gear looks bad ass.

[Reptil]

it depends on the synth. some have a simple signal path only one filter, and others multiples. more is better in this case.
that Macbeth photon already has 2 osc. and one filter and VCA, LFO etc. but of course has less CV inputs than the seperate oscillator and filter modules...

[golden beers]

Originally Posted by ._.

I'm looking at the Macbeth modules since I just love their sound.

There is a dual vco and those I would have to get 5 of of course but what happens with the fuilter backend module, it has ADSR for amp and filter, I want the same ADSR for all notes. but what about the filtering? It would only filter one voice right? In a digital synth does all notes/keys have their own filter or is it just one for the highest note or are all notes sent trought the same filter in some way?

BTW that tiptop gear looks bad ass.

say you only have one filter ADSR and one amp ADSR and 5 oscs at different notes all going through that;

this is fine if what youre doing is playing a chord with all notes at the same time... what happens if you change one of the notes of that chord?: you wont get a new 'attack' for the next note, it will come in at the same pont of the ADSR as all the other notes are already at.

..

i didnt really understand your question about digital synths.

[._.]

Originally Posted by golden beers

say you only have one filter ADSR and one amp ADSR and 5 oscs at different notes all going through that;

this is fine if what youre doing is playing a chord with all notes at the same time... what happens if you change one of the notes of that chord?: you wont get a new 'attack' for the next note, it will come in at the same pont of the ADSR as all the other notes are already at.

..

i didnt really understand your question about digital synths.

What I meant was in a computer synth, when playing a chord, are all notes filtered on their own as separates or is it just one lets say lp filter smacked on to all of them, lets say at 5kHz. I guess in a computer synth the default mode is that the filter is in some way following the individual notes? Maybe I'm overcomplicating things here?

[._.]

Originally Posted by Reptil

it depends on the synth. some have a simple signal path only one filter, and others multiples. more is better in this case.
that Macbeth photon already has 2 osc. and one filter and VCA, LFO etc. but of course has less CV inputs than the seperate oscillator and filter modules...

I think I understand now, I think. Can't seem to find the macbeth photon on his site when looking around. Is it discontinued? Are there more kodules on his site that are well, a bit hidden?

[kkonkkrete]

Modular really isn't the right interface for building a classic poly (apart from the forthcoming TipTop stuff). For a poly you normally want N identical copies of each voice. When you do a filter sweep, you want the filter to sweep on all voices at the same time. This is a hassle to set up on a modular as you need to have N of each module PLUS a general purpose offset module for each parameter that you want to be able to tweak in real time. Some early polys (like the Oberheim ones) were essentially completely separate structures for each voice, but he added a controller so you could gang the different voices together.

Personally, I think it is less work to just multitrack each voice separately.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by ._.

What I meant was in a computer synth, when playing a chord, are all notes filtered on their own as separates or is it just one lets say lp filter smacked on to all of them, lets say at 5kHz

What you're talking about has nothing to do with computers. One filter (and sometimes one VCA) for multiple voices means that the synthesizer is paraphonic; you can play chords, but they all are filtered by a single filter. Examples of this are the Korg PS3100/PS3200 and virtually all stringer synths such as the Solina String Ensemble.

The Solina allows polyphony by using octave dividers. Each voice goes through a single VCA - so if you set a long attack and a long decay, you can play one note which swells in volume. When you play a second note while the first has gone to full volume, it immediately goes at full volume as well - it does not go through the long attack and decay first. The Solina doesn't even have real filters; its presets are based on combinations of resonant bandpass filters that are enabled/disabled thanks to pushbuttons, so enabling violin + horns simply means applying a certain filter curve to a waveform.

fxPansion DCAM "Amber" emulates this behavior. A Korg Poly-800 has a single filter, but still 8 voices.

Usually, a plugin creates an instance for each voice that needs to be played - with its own filters, its own LFOs and its own envelopes. In NI Massive, 4 voices are allocated at once even if you're just playing a single one so the CPU and memory requirements remain somewhat constant.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by ._.

I think I understand now, I think. Can't seem to find the macbeth photon on his site when looking around. Is it discontinued? Are there more kodules on his site that are well, a bit hidden?

do a search here on GS

[._.]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

What you're talking about has nothing to do with computers. One filter (and sometimes one VCA) for multiple voices means that the synthesizer is paraphonic; you can play chords, but they all are filtered by a single filter. Examples of this are the Korg PS3100/PS3200 and virtually all stringer synths such as the Solina String Ensemble.

The Solina allows polyphony by using octave dividers. Each voice goes through a single VCA - so if you set a long attack and a long decay, you can play one note which swells in volume. When you play a second note while the first has gone to full volume, it immediately goes at full volume as well - it does not go through the long attack and decay first. The Solina doesn't even have real filters; its presets are based on combinations of resonant bandpass filters that are enabled/disabled thanks to pushbuttons, so enabling violin + horns simply means applying a certain filter curve to a waveform.

fxPansion DCAM "Amber" emulates this behavior. A Korg Poly-800 has a single filter, but still 8 voices.

Usually, a plugin creates an instance for each voice that needs to be played - with its own filters, its own LFOs and its own envelopes. In NI Massive, 4 voices are allocated at once even if you're just playing a single one so the CPU and memory requirements remain somewhat constant.

I see.

Paraphonic is a new word to me.

Thanks for helping me understand this.

Are many of the good old classic poly synths paraphonic?

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by ._.

Are many of the good old classic poly synths paraphonic?

No, those are truly polyphonic.

The Studio Electronics Omega uses voice boards. Each voice board contains a fully self-contained monophonic synthesizer. You can cram 2, 4, 6 or 8 of 'm in a single box, and the box itself "knows" how many boards are in there. If you press a key, the first unoccupied voice board is chosen out of the list, its envelope gates are opened, and sound flows out (the oscillator keeps on making sound continuously, but you just don't hear it - once the envelope gate is closed its volume is simply zero).

If you press another key, the next unoccupied voice board is chosen. If you run out of free voice boards, you can

1) do nothing and ignore subsequent keypresses
2) pick the voice board that's been occupied for the longest time and re-assign it (preferable)
3) pick the voice board that's been playing the lowest or highest pitch and re-assign it (preferable)
4) use a clever algorithm to find out which note can be lifted out of the currently sounding set without changing the sound too much. This is preferable, but requires more programming, cleverness and a fast chip to determine this. For instance, if you hold the low C as the bass note and a chord at the top, and you have 4 voice boards, then the fifth note should ideally "steal" the highest C or the E - stealing away the bass would be a much more jarring change.

Other synths also use voice boards (CS80 for instance). Voice boards are big, so the first trick is to miniaturize them. You can get them as small as a handful of ICs (CEMs, for instance) so you only need 2 3340s for the oscillator, one 3320 for the filter, and a few others for LFOs, envelopes and the VCA. Then you cram 6 of 'm on a single big circuit board and you got a Jupiter 6, basically.

With modulars, you're basically working with giant components of a voice board - that's why polyphony is so expensive.

[Beermaster]

The other issue with polyphonic modular set ups is finding a controller that can send out polyphonic CVs or a MIDI solution that send separated notes to separate channels... The only CV keyboards I can think of that can send multiple channels of CV+Gates are the Roland SYS 100m 184 controller and the Polyfusion keyboard ( forget the number now )

Having individual voice setups is relatively easy... controlling them polyphonically is another story !

Beer.

[._.]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

The other issue with polyphonic modular set ups is finding a controller that can send out polyphonic CVs or a MIDI solution that send separated notes to separate channels... The only CV keyboards I can think of that can send multiple channels of CV+Gates are the Roland SYS 100m 184 controller and the Polyfusion keyboard ( forget the number now )

Having individual voice setups is relatively easy... controlling them polyphonically is another story !

Beer.

Are there any solutions that provide:

1 midi keyboard out - mystery box midi in - mystery box poly CV out

Or

Computer midi out - mystery box midi in - mystery box poly CV out?

[NWSooner]

Originally Posted by ._.

Are there any solutions that provide:

1 midi keyboard out - mystery box midi in - mystery box poly CV out

Or

Computer midi out - mystery box midi in - mystery box poly CV out?

That's what the TipTop MIDI-CV will do when it's released. Might be able to get Silent Way to do it right now, not sure.

[Beermaster]

Actutally there is a module that will do this and it's one of a kind. The Analogue Systems RS370 ( optional 375 too ) Polyphonic Harmonic Generator - This will take up to six voices from an Incoming Midi stream and send out six independent lots of CVs, gates and triggers.

Not Cheap but it is one of the most complexed and amazing Euro modules out there... it can also be a polyphonic synth, a Complexed harmonic generator wit sixteen realtime harmonic controls and CV points.. or 2x ten stage EG with CV for for each stages .. as well bas being a source for Arpeggiation, LFOs..etc ... Packs a massive punch

Beer.

[Rimwolf]

Sounds like the most crucial module is a wallet replenisher.

[._.]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

Actutally there is a module that will do this and it's one of a kind. The Analogue Systems RS370 ( optional 375 too ) Polyphonic Harmonic Generator - This will take up to six voices from an Incoming Midi stream and send out six independent lots of CVs, gates and triggers.

Not Cheap but it is one of the most complexed and amazing Euro modules out there... it can also be a polyphonic synth, a Complexed harmonic generator wit sixteen realtime harmonic controls and CV points.. or 2x ten stage EG with CV for for each stages .. as well bas being a source for Arpeggiation, LFOs..etc ... Packs a massive punch

Beer.

Yeah it sounds like they really crammed it full.

I had a look at the Silent way thing, but I'm unsure if actually does 5 voice polyphonic CV or just 2 voice polyphony CV. Also I feel there might be a problem intefacing a regular keyboard into that chain. Since it would be keyboard out (usb/midi) - daw/computer in - daw/computer out - silent way in digital and out CV and then synth CV in and sound out of it into the computer again.

I also read a bit about the Cirklon

Cirklon currently has 32 tracks, though that may increase (or become configurable) if there is user demand.
There are 5 independent MIDI INs and OUTs to connect a large number of controllers and synths/sound modules while keeping MIDI latency to a minimum.
There is USB MIDI connectivity for DAW synchronisation or soft-synth control, and a DIN Sync output which can also be configured to connect an upcoming multi-channel analogue percussion trigger interface.
The optional CVIO analogue bus provides 16 hi-res CV outputs, and 8 configurable gate out/CV ins on a 25 pin connector.

I wonder if they work as what I had in mind?

Also there is kentonuk, but I've read these are inaccurate and slow.

Well I just calculated what I wanted from Macbeth and it sums up at roughly $15400
so I guess I still have quite some time to think about this to say the least.

[._.]

Originally Posted by Rimwolf

Sounds like the most crucial module is a wallet replenisher.

No shit.

I just hope this modular stuff won't turn in to some kind of addiction.

[The Real MC]

The Polymoog is a paraphonic (one master filter for all 71 notes).

First off, divide modules between global and voice. An example of global is the LFO which works on all voices. Voice related modules are VCOs, VCFs, VCAs, EGs. Want voice modulation? Find a switchable matrix with (x) inputs and (y) outputs, and you'll want (y) VCAs to vary the depth of each modulation output.

Managing a polyphonic system on a modular can be a chore. Setting (n) EGs alike, (n) filter settings, (n) oscillators... lots of work.

Easier approach is voltage control every parameter on the voice modules, including VC'd attack/decay/sustain/release, resonance, waveshape, etc. You could have custom panels with pots putting out voltage control each labeled attack, decay, sustain, cutoff, resonance, vco1 pitch, vco2 pitch, vco1 wave shape, etc. Multiple the attack voltage to the attack control on (n) EGs, resonance voltage to resonance control on (n) VCFs, etc.. This way one pot controls a parameter across (n) voices.

Want patch storage? In lieu of the custom panel, use a sequencer for programming your patch and storing it - use the stages as patches, turn off the clock and select a stage manually. A 16x4 sequencer will store 16 patches with 4 voltage control outputs. If you need 24 voltage outputs to comprise a patch, you'll need six 16x4 sequencers.

A polyphonic modular can get expensive and huge in a hurry...

[razorblade]

Originally Posted by ._.

No shit.

I just hope this modular stuff won't turn in to some kind of addiction.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Makenoise doesn't offer the first module for free..."Here you go my man...have a little taste of Maths on the house....if you want an lpg to go with that, you know where to hit me up..."

[LiveFromKyoto]

Originally Posted by ._.

I'm looking at the Macbeth modules since I just love their sound.

There is a dual vco and those I would have to get 5 of of course

Price : $1,399.00 each.

You should probably just go the budget route and get an actual CS-80.

[steveman]

Originally Posted by ._.

No shit.

I just hope this modular stuff won't turn in to some kind of addiction.

Not a hope, they call it Eurocrack for a reason....

[stanasko]

hello...

As you can see i am new to the World of Modular Synths and before i buy my first i just want to know is there any module that can make polyphony on multiple oscilators like they perfectly made that on a Oberheim SEM with 8 voice polyphony...

Thanks...))

[Bio]

Tip Top Audio is working on modular polyphonic modules, But there is nothing like this yet.

SEM was not really a poly modular, more like 8 semimodular together, it's very different in conception.

You can built a poly modular but it's very costly and rather difficult to program.

You need a poly keyboard or a poly midi/cv converter and a lot of VCO/VCF/VCA, mixers, enveloppes etc...

It work for some people.

[Yoozer]

For true polyphony you need to clone each collection of parts as many times as the number of voices you desire to have. There is no way around it, except for paraphony - but then again, that's not what an 8-voice is.

Since you can't miniaturize the components properly (in the sense that you cannot shrink an existing module and integrate it so it doesn't take as much place/doesn't cost as much) in modular format, you have no solution except for buying everything you want - 8 times. May the Lord have mercy on your wallet.

[golden beers]

What modules are needed for polyphony in a modular?

[pavel.k]

In user examples for doepfer "A-152 Voltage Addressed Track&Hold / Analog Shift Register (ASR)/Octal Switch (Multiplexer)"
They are talking about "Mono-Poly-Konverter". Has someone experiences with this, please?

Edited: Uh, sorry, it is not about true polyphony...