Yamaha FS1R alternative

[mayowhip]

Does anyone here know of a soft synth that would cover similar ground as the Yamaha FS1R *drool* or am I just going to have to give in and buy one? Thx

[Varian Allen]

I wish there was a comparable soft synth, but sadly there isn't. I'm not letting go of mine, I did that once before years ago when I went software-only, I missed it so much I had to repurchase it.

[jarlywarly]

I will never let mine go either, but TBH I've yet to get satisfactory results from Formant sequencing. Still a lot to explore! It's worth it if you are the patient/determined type.

I've tried most of the software FM synths and the one IMO that is closest in terms of FM capability is Linplug Octopus. No formant ops or sequencing but there are samples slots to mix with your 8 freely-routable FM operators, and it sounds sweet.

[realtrance]

Nothing is ever like the real thing, however you define that for yourself.

Accept no substitutes.

[WDM]

NI FM8?

[projectwoofer]

Originally Posted by jarlywarly

I've tried most of the software FM synths and the one IMO that is closest in terms of FM capability is Linplug Octopus. No formant ops or sequencing but there are samples slots to mix with your 8 freely-routable FM operators, and it sounds sweet.

I agree on the Octopus...very nice FM synth and it's good enough for me (along with the FM8)...in general, I prefer software for more modern, complex, crystal-clear FM stuff...

Thing is I was never crazy about the FS1R, I enjoy much more the vintagey sound of the TX802 and I also appreciate its simplicity (compared to the FS1R)...

[Liquid360]

Run one of these through some outboard filters... Works for me.

[EvilDragon]

Formant synthesis/sequencing and 8-op FM in the way FS1R does it is not available in software realm. No, FM8 won't do it.

[mayowhip]

Thx for the replies guys. It's definetly the formant goodness that makes me GAS for that synth.



2:28 that patch right there is just so awesome XD. Well I guess Ill have to save up for one. Whats a good price for those?

[bigbongo]

I sold a FS1-R about 6 months ago for £500-ish.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by WDM

NI FM8?

haha!


no.


I've done a head-to-head with the DX7 presets versus the FM8 emulations of those presets and the difference is MASSIVE! (no NI pun intended).

The F1SR is renowned as being the most advanced and cleanest FM synth, I can't possibly imagine the 2D thin-sounding FM8 getting close. Happy to hear other views of those who have experience with both, tho'.

[bluegreengold]

kawai k5000 is about as close as you'll get.

[WDM]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

haha!


no.


I've done a head-to-head with the DX7 presets versus the FM8 emulations of those presets and the difference is MASSIVE! (no NI pun intended).

The F1SR is renowned as being the most advanced and cleanest FM synth, I can't possibly imagine the 2D thin-sounding FM8 getting close. Happy to hear other views of those who have experience with both, tho'.

I guess, it's fair to say that, there is always a difference between the hardware synth and the software emulations.

As alternative the software synth gives you a convenience to be placed inside of your DAW, and if you need just "FM type" of sound, it gets this job done most of the time. If someone is after advanced and cleanest FM synth, that should be the real FS1R, no doubt. The only drawback is, the programming of any FM synth is not for everyone, especially with tiny screen and four knobs. I know that the FS1R editor is available somewhere, but still it's going to be "programming of FM synth".

To me, it's better to have easy tweak-able FM8 than the real monster FM, that only FM GOD knows how to program. So, I guess the software is still an alternative for some people, even if it's not 100% accurate emulation.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by WDM

I guess, it's fair to say that, there is always a difference between the hardware synth and the software emulations.

As alternative the software synth gives you a convenience to be placed inside of your DAW, and if you need just "FM type" of sound, it gets this job done most of the time. If someone is after advanced and cleanest FM synth, that should be the real FS1R, no doubt. The only drawback is, the programming of any FM synth is not for everyone, especially with tiny screen and four knobs. I know that the FS1R editor is available somewhere, but still it's going to be "programming of FM synth".

To me, it's better to have easy tweak-able FM8 than the real monster FM, that only FM GOD knows how to program. So, I guess the software is still an alternative for some people, even if it's not 100% accurate emulation.

Good post, mate...I agree. It's a shame there aren't many (any?) knobbier FM hardware synths.

[Synth Buddha]

Originally Posted by dhollmusik

haha!


no.


I've done a head-to-head with the DX7 presets versus the FM8 emulations of those presets and the difference is MASSIVE! (no NI pun intended).

The F1SR is renowned as being the most advanced and cleanest FM synth, I can't possibly imagine the 2D thin-sounding FM8 getting close. Happy to hear other views of those who have experience with both, tho'.

Agree 100%. You can't compare the FM8 to hardware FM synths like the DX7 or the FS1R, because the sound quality just isn't there. I hardly ever use my FM8 anymore, because it really does sound 2D, and wimpy and flat out boring. I regret purchasing it. I have not regretted any purchase of a hardware FM synth, even though there are drawbacks to using those as well. In the end, what matters is to me is the sound.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by bluegreengold

kawai k5000 is about as close as you'll get.

K5000: apples
FS1R: oranges

[bluegreengold]

both are digital additive synthesis with digital formant filters

K5000s -- additive using amplitude envelopes for partials
Fs1r -- additive using frequency modulation

for most types of sounds they add up to about the same thing. You just use a different method to get there.

[Jake]

Just to pile on, there really aren't any equivalent FM synths to the FS1R. As I see it, the FS1R offer three fairly useful and unique features that aren't available elsewhere:

1. Formant filter/sequences.
2. Its implementation of unvoiced operators.
3. 8-op FM with multiple operator waverforms.
4. Includes 1000 Yamaha DX era patches. Not necessarily unique, but just having these available to layer and manipulate with filters/effects is pretty useful.

If you don't really care about or need these features, however, you're probably better off with a software FM synth. On the other hand, if you have the desire to dig deep, you're not going to find a more powerful and flexible FM synth than the FS1r.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by bluegreengold

K5000s -- additive using amplitude envelopes for partials
Fs1r -- additive using frequency modulation

for most types of sounds they add up to about the same thing. You just use a different method to get there.

I wouldn't label FM as additive synthesis, since it's functionally and practically very different.

[Don Solaris]

Originally Posted by mayowhip

Yamaha FS1R alternative?

That would be Yamaha FS1.

link

[djugel]

!!!!!!

that's awesome! I love small bikes..

[Don Solaris]

Originally Posted by bluegreengold

kawai k5000 is about as close as you'll get.

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by mayowhip

Does anyone here know of a soft synth that would cover similar ground as the Yamaha FS1R *drool* or am I just going to have to give in and buy one? Thx

If you just want a software DX7, then, try FM8. It doesn't sound exactly the same, but it's a great digital FM instrument. Expressions like "DX 7 has a better, 3D sound" are clearly exaggerations...both can sound equally good, but with some differences. Unfortunately there is nothing quite similar to a FS1R in software and it's a shame that such a marvelous instrument isn't an option for the market nowadays...

[djugel]

Seriously... why do hardware samplers and FM synths get the short end of the stick?

[Spectral Climax]

Originally Posted by djugel

Seriously... why do hardware samplers and FM synths get the short end of the stick?

Hardware samplers: their magic was inside their "primitive" converters at an era where computers were still used only as midi workstations and good audio interfaces were only few and ultra expensive...nowadays, converters sound too clean and computers can do almost all of the sampling tasks easier, so there is no real advantage of having a modern hardware sampler...

FM Synths: they were a trend of a specific era... most of the people never really took advantage of them because of their complex synthesis method, combined with counter intuitive interfaces...

[bluegreengold]

Originally Posted by Don Solaris

How so?

Other than the fs1r and k5000s, what other synths have a comparable formant filter? It's the formant filter that makes the fs1r special. It doesn't have the most advanced FM engine -- no RCM, no freely definable algorithms...


In terms of what kinds of sounds you can make, Additive + a Formant filter is much closer to FM and a formant filter, than any other permutation of FM synths. In terms of the character and breadth of sounds, the k5000 is closer the fs1r than a dx is. Of course a fs1r can do the dx7 better than a k5000s.

But except patches using non integer operator ratios (whose tonality you can mimic using AM on the k5000), what kind of sounds can an FM synth do that can't be done on the k5000? And yes, FM is an additive synthesis method -- otherwise all of the values for operator levels and egs would be inverted. lol

[Don Solaris]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

Hardware samplers: their magic was inside their "primitive" converters at an era where computers were still used only as midi workstations and good audio interfaces were only few and ultra expensive...

There's true to that in older samplers. But if we talk devices like S-1100 which were high-end at their time i know for sure that the output board with all the DACs and VCA cost way more than one average DAW soundcard today.

Some ppl might think that just because i.e.S-1100, E-IV, or K-2500S can be bought for bargain today they must contain cheap parts. But the assumption is plain wrong. Converters inside are stellar. I know for sure S-1100 is sampling and playing things way better than any soundcard I've tried in $1k+ range. In fact, not long ago i've sampled some drums for a friend who's a producer (owns Rosetta) and his first comment was something like: "What the hell did you used to sample this? I want it!". The prices of these machines might have dropped in the meantime but the sonic quality didn't became worst because of it.

[cryophonik]

I owned an FS1R for several years and really loved the sound of it, but hated programming it (even with the editor). Every time I thought about selling it, I would compare it to FM8 and RP Blue to see if I could convince myself myself that they would be a substitute. It didn't take much A/B-ing to realize that, no they wouldn't be a satisfactory substitute. That's not to say that they aren't both great synths (Blue is one of my favs), but they just didn't sound like it, nor could they perform the formant synthesis, which is one of the key features of the FS1R.

Surprisingly, the one soft synth that convinced me that there would be life after FS1R was not an FM synth, it was Alchemy. Yeah, I realized that they're totally different beasts, but Alchemy can approximate the essence of the FS1R sound better than anything else I've heard. The factory library contains some very good vocal sounds and Camel Audio recently released a Voices expansion for it - both of those can be used to (re)synthesize some vocal pads and sounds that rival the FS1R's.

[dhollmusik]

Originally Posted by Spectral Climax

Expressions like "DX 7 has a better, 3D sound" are clearly exaggerations.

Not "expressions", but "claims", or "opinions". And how are they "clearly exaggerations"? I did an audio test using classic DX presets, side-by-side using the same mixer.

I didn't record it unfortunately, but the difference in "3D" and "alive" was HUGE. This is my opinion or claim based on real experience.


However, what you can do better with the FM8 than the real deals is...well, just read WDM's post above.

[Don Solaris]

Originally Posted by bluegreengold

And yes, FM is an additive synthesis method -- otherwise all of the values for operator levels and egs would be inverted. lol

Last time i've checked my texbooks, FM was a phase modulation based synthesis / PM for short. How did PM became additive synthesis, i have no idea, this is the first time i've heard it. I'd be glad if you can share some light on this or show some physics involved behind.