First VA or analogue synth buy, comparing contenders, your help is appreciated.

[satellitedog]

Hello synthslutz!

After reading this part of the forum daily for a while, I decided to ask your help regarding my first synthesizer purchase. I have no set idea as to what kind of synth I'd like to own, but I think that a VA would be more practical, even though a lovely analogue mono with instant hands on control is way more appealing.
I would like to stick to keyboard versions to avoid the added cost of a cheap controller, but I have no idea what quality the keyboards of the listed synths represent. I didn't really like the keys of a Yamaha CS5 for example, loud and mechanic feeling, but the sound was intriguing.

Since the prices of used synths are getting steeper and steeper on e-bay I thought I should act as soon as possible, as I think they are well over reasonable pricing even today. I'm located in the EU, thus ordering from Japan or the US is out of question due to VAT and high shipping costs. (roughly 30% atop shipped price)

The not so fun part: my budget is limited to about 400-500 Euros (around 520-600 USD) and that's pushing it at the moment... :-(

Okay, the fun part, which one of these is a better package?

-Korg MS 2000 (love the sounds)
-Roland JP 8000 (sounds very usable in a songwriting/sound design context)
-Yamaha CS 10 (acknowledging its limitations, appreciating the sound)
-Roland SH 2 or other.
-Alesis Ion (hate the looks, but it gets praise and I haven't played it in person either)
- What else?
-the new MiniBrute from Arturia perhaps? I hate the idea of a 2 octave keyboard, 3 octaves are a minimum I guess, but the sounds could be worth it, and it's new, so servicing should be trouble free.

The sounds I find inspiring and which I would see as a starting point/goal are early Simple Minds especially Empires and Dance and Sons and Fascination (Jupiter 4, Korg 770 and others I don't recall now) Eno's sounds with Berlin era Bowie and his influences, German Krautrock bands, plus Blade Runner era Vangelis.
I know it's a vast palette, but I think this describes my needs.

Thank you for reading, thank you very much for sharing your opinion!

Satdog

[verve92]

Every synth in my rig below was had for around $500 or less....
If your new to synth you can't beat the Gaia tons of polyphony (if that's one of your sounds). Great UI and no menus and very diverse.
If you are experienced at programming maybe an early generation Nord or Virus if you are patient. I'm still waiting on a cheapo Virus to pounce on.....

[satellitedog]

Thanks, I've been looking at the Gaia as I like the interface, but the JP 8000 is around the same price, also with knobs and sliders, and it seemed like a more serious instrument, with more of a following (however I wonder what the original reception to it was).
I've only used some substractive softsynths so far, and had a few minutes on a CS5, so I have no set preferences beyond real time tweakability and poliphony if possible.

A Virus could be awesome, but it's well above my budget. Is $800 a good price for a used KB? (mint condition, home used)

[Synchronix]

Originally Posted by satellitedog

Thanks, I've been looking at the Gaia as I like the interface, but the JP 8000 is around the same price, also with knobs and sliders, and it seemed like a more serious instrument, with more of a following (however I wonder what the original reception to it was).
I've only used some substractive softsynths so far, and had a few minutes on a CS5, so I have no set preferences beyond real time tweakability and poliphony if possible.

A Virus could be awesome, but it's well above my budget. Is $800 a good price for a used KB? (mint condition, home used)

800$ is an okay price for a KB, but a good price if its bought locally and you don't have to pay for shipping/taxes/duty. If I were you, I would wait patiently for a good priced Nord Lead 2X or Virus KC to come up. The KC is worth the extra 1-200$ for the Moog filter, extra polyphony and extended effects section.

With the Virus C, it can also be used as a great effects processor for other synths. It had a very dark sound to it. In your case (Simple Minds-esque influences), I would go for the Nord Lead 2X in this price range, it has a more glassy/liquid tone. If you're willing to spend a little more and go analog, get a Prophet 08 Desktop and a good midi controller. That will give you almost exactly what you want, and you can fill in the gaps with sample libraries or VSTs until you can afford your next synth!

[satellitedog]

Wow, I just saw a Virus KB for over $1500 on e-bay... :-/ insane.

Thanks Synchronix, however my budget won't allow a Nord Lead 2x unfortunately (I was looking at those earlier too), the rack version of the L2 is at the top of what I could afford and then I'd need a decent keyboard extra.

I'd like to stay within budget, although I'd love to have an Arp Odissey or a Jupiter 4 or a Polysix :-/

[satellitedog]

some examples

[satellitedog]

Bump

[bouzoukijoe1]

MS2000 +1

[synthguy]

An Alesis Ion is a no-brainer. It has a variety of vintage filter types which come close to the originals in sound quality, and dual filters at that. With three oscillators, you can make it sound as big or small as you want. Eight note polyphony is handy too.

An Ion can get all those old school ARP, VCS, Obie sounds pretty easily, and has loads of vintage synth patches from notirious songs built in to get you started.

[satellitedog]

Thanks for the tip.

How easy is it do you think, to create patches from scratch with the Ion?

I could get one for about $500 locally, and I wonder if that's a decent price...

Although I really dislike its look, but I only read good things about it.


Actually I'd like to ask all of you which of these VA-s is the most intuitive/easy to tweak synth?

MS 2000
JP 8000
Ion

[memristor]

IMO 3 octaves are minimum if you play monophonic lines, 4 octaves are minimum for polyphonic play

The videos are blocked in Germany, but from my memory these use a lot of non-synth sounds and lots of fx like (analog) delay, possibly tracks recorded at different speeds and such things

The Ion is very easy to edit if yopu have experience with synths but like all synths with a mod matrix it gets fiddly at some point if you want to use lots of modulation routings

The Ion has a cheap KB though at least I didnt like it
About the looks however I'd say it's timeless design and looks better in real life than on photographs

I bought my Ion for 445 Euro in 2010 and sold it for 480 Euro in 2011
I think both prices are reasonable and fair but these are quite rare on Ebay Germany.
I wouldnt pay more than 480 € myself though

I think I would also recommend the Ion but I dont have experience with the others besides of
checking them in a shop when they were new

The Ion has an additional wheel IIRC this wheel doesnt either doesnt send MIDI or you have to chose what it sends at any rate the Ions wheels are more usable than the combine bent/pressure wheel and ribbon controller of the JP
the reason for this is simple you can move the wheels and leave them alone and they will keep their position and they have a long way to turn, unlike the pressure wheel
since you dont seem to be an experienced keyboard whizzard I think the Ions solution is better

[depulse]

Get a Nord Lead 2. One of the best of the VA world with an analog user interface.

Then you buy a real analog mono synth, a Pulse, a Pro One or a Moog Phatty.

[ReubenTobias]

if this is your first hardware purchase i would be wary of the ms2000,

the first issue of this machine featured very unreliable midi sync issues, so be sure to source an ms2000B, same synth engine but with revised timing.

[bouzoukijoe1]

imho MS2000 and JP8000 are the easiest and fastest to learn and get used to. never owned an Ion but from what I can tell it involves more menu diving which might make learning slower, especially if you're new to synthesizers.

[duellingislands]

The Nord Lead 2 (+2x) remains brilliant. Can't beat Knobby As ****(tm).

[SWAN808]

I think you could find an early Nord Lead KB for that money...I would suggest that. Nord 1 or Nord 2 (2X is more expensive recent version-not needed)...Ion is a good choice. MS2000 is cool but only 4 voices...any of those really...

And get an MFB Nanozwerg for some real analogue bassline fun. Cheap as chips.

PS you could look at the Yamaha AN1x - actually a really good sounding VA slightly hindered by its interface.

[satellitedog]

Wow, it lives :-) The thread is alive.


Thank you everyone.

Indeed I am no keyboard whiz, and only played around with soft synths, plus I've been reading and watching/listening to reviews for a year or so. I love the logical layout of keyboards though (guitar and bass are my current main instruments) so it will be fun learning to play.

Okay, so the Ion is a pretty safe prospect, and the large modwheels were actually the only thing I liked about it on first look. As for its sounds, I'll have to listen to more demos to find something I like. The MS 2000 has sounds I know I love, same as the JP 8k.

There's a L2x keyboard locally for around $1000.
There's one L2 rack for $550 too.

I was seriously considering an MFB system including a Nano plus either a Micro or Kraftzwerg or Megazwerg, with a controller keyboard, but I would run over budget with even two modules, so I decided a decent VA would be a better first synth.

I will have to read up on the uses of MIDI... :-/

[satellitedog]

Originally Posted by memristor

The videos are blocked in Germany, but from my memory these use a lot of non-synth sounds and lots of fx like (analog) delay, possibly tracks recorded at different speeds and such things

Thanks for the detailed and informative post!

Yes, the Simple Minds tracks are a rock band with synths line-up (albeit with fairly individual styles), which is mostly the same as how I want to use the synth(s), although I don't want to set up rules about instrumentation at all. The guitars are heavily effected to the point that on early listenings I mistook some of the parts for synthesizers. :-) Of course that's something I want to achieve to some extent with my own music later on.

[derekf208]

I went through this not to long ago. I was tired(still am) of the sound and UI of soft-synths, even the nice ones like FM8 and Massive were hurting my ears. I began looking at the Virus, Juno 60, and The Nord Lead. I was very torn between them.

I ended up getting the Lead 2. It's pretty damn nice. The oscillators just feel stronger, warmer, and punchier than my soft synths. It would be nice to have an analog synth, but the prices are way too crazy right now. The Nord is a GREAT beginner's synth too. The UI is a breeze, you'll be sculpting sounds very fast with it. I picked up my NL2 KB for only $650.

The Nord seems to sit in the mix really nicely too.

[Praxisaxis]

I'm going to go out on a limb and recommend the Minibrute. Be warned, like any analogue mono it has its limitions, but these are well-documented.

I am going to take a punt here and suggest that the 2 octaves needn't be a limitation. In studio work there are a variety of ways of getting around this. For performance, remember that the octave keys are placed in a very handy position, and you can learn to incorporate these into your technique (see Mr Yorktown)



It's awfully cheap for a brand new analogue synth with a keyboard. I think I'm eventually going to have to get one.

It's shortfalls can be made up for by future purchases.

This might not be the most practical advice. I've decided to put sexy ahead of practical on this occasion :-)

[satellitedog]

I'll be looking out for a cheap NL2 KB but it's probably more than I need and the 2x seems to be the more regular version for sale.

As for the Minibrute, I'm going to listen to user demos and read user reviews once it's released.
I don't really get the logic in such a liimited keyboard, when three octaves would be just fine and historically in line with the greats. It's not a softsynth controller for the backpacker, and everyone's excited by a cheap analogue mono (I loved the turn of the thread from meh to wow).

I wonder how expensive the MFB Dominion X will be. I really liked that longish Soundcloud demo in its own thread even though its a mono.

[Rimwolf]

Originally Posted by satellitedog

I wonder how expensive the MFB Dominion X will be. I really liked that longish Soundcloud demo in its own thread even though its a mono.

Their website says €780.

[satellitedog]

Thanks Wolf.

[clusterchord]

for a VA option, id go Nord Lead 2. in my taste, much more musical and well rounded machine than korg, ion or whatever VA on the low end of things.

if you want real analog, 500 e wont get you SH2, but it will get you SH09 with patience. its equally humongous in bass, sweet sound blah.. but its a specialty item. sound is phenomenal, however you have no memory, polyphony etc. yeah dominion x might not be a bad option for you, but it is a different price range..

[satellitedog]

:-)

Yeah, well I love the sound of the SH-09 from demos, so if one should come up at a decent price (must be similar to hunting tornados) I would probably get that.

I like to work against limitations, so as long as it's got a keyboard, I can live with it.

[bug2342]

I would recommend the Yamaha An1x. It sounds quite nice and has a nice keybed. The interface is a bit ugly however. Not really slow in use, but a bit confusing at first.

I never really liked the Nordlead. The interface is great, but I think the synth engine is a bit too simple and it sounds a bit boring. This is a minority opinion and I never used one personally. Best listen to some demos on the net. If you like the sound and you want to keep it simple this might be the best choice.

You might want to look at some of the old Creamware stuff. The ASB boxes should be in your price range (also sold with a sonic core label: that is the new company after some financial troubles). If you only want very nice sound and you don´t need full parameter access without a computer you might pick up the Plugiator (Use Audio) instead. That´s a cheap box with all the nice Creamware synths inside, but a bit of a shortage of knobs. Most relevant parameters can be controlled by MIDI CC so with the addition of a reasonable controller you should be fine. It allows to use one of the included synths at a time, and normally you have 10 voice polyphony. You get emulations of very classic synths like Minimoog and Prophet 5, so it´s rather easy to understand. Probably still the best sounding VAs till recently (Solaris + Accelerator might be nicer, but all the new super nice sounding hardware is quite a bit above your price range).

Both the Ultranova and the Ion look/sound nice to me, but I´ve not had the pleasure to use them.

For the real analog:
The polyphonic synths in this price range tend to be limited and have a serious lack of controls:

- Juno Alpha is kind of nice, but only has limited real-time tweakebility and only one oscillator per voice.

- matrix 1000 seems nice, but no knobs...

- DSI tetra (might be slightly above the budget): Nice synth, but only 4 assignable knobs for real-time access and editing without a computer is very, very, very painful.

Monophonic Analogs are cool for seriously learning how a synth works. Especially a semi-modular like the Microzwerg is nice. On the other hand I would not recommend to pick up a mono synth as your only synth. That would be very limiting.

[satellitedog]

Thank you for all the info, Bug.

It's not clear to me what the Creamware boxes are actually... I've seen some pics and watched a demo of the Prodissey.
Are they VA synths with analogue imitating interfaces, or actual analogue synths replicating the classics?

[LiveFromKyoto]

I'd recommend the Mopho for an affordable analogue mono way before I would the Brute. 4 LFOs, two oscs + subs, sequencer, MIDI, patch memory, audio in overdrive and a Curtis filter, it's an insane amount of functionality for such a small box. The filter rips hard on leads and the bass is room shaking

[satellitedog]

Thanks, though I found the mopho a bit aggressive sounding.
How about a Tetra?

[LiveFromKyoto]

Originally Posted by satellitedog

Thanks, though I found the mopho a bit aggressive sounding.
How about a Tetra?

It's the exact same thing, it's just 4 Mophos in a box. If you found the Mopho aggressive the Brute sounds like more of the same. Maybe look toward a Slim Phatty or Minitaur if you want a smoother sound.