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#91
1st February 2012
Old 1st February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Do you think live bands are going to wait on the synth player to set up his next patch?
Not hating on you and I hear what you're saying but it's literally 2 seconds to changes patches manually, even before the applause has died out. Ok, it's completely different in a studio environment when you're not the actual synth player.
#92
1st February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausgeno View Post
Most big-name guitarists rarely use multi-fx as they tend to be digital units and guitarists prefer analogue effects, especially for distortion, delay, chorus etc. In place of presets they generally use controllers to turn different pedals on/off.

Check Joe Satrianis pedal board for example:

Never compare a synthesist to a guitarist (especially when it comes to their instrument of choice) in regards to sound design, Guitars are not conceived as sound design tools, guitarists use pedals for FX and tone varieties; each one of those pedals are set to be played as is in a live setting, most of the interaction between them and the performer occurs with the bypass switch or the expression pedal used (if any); It's not a situation where you have to switch from a string patch to a bass patch, to a pad, to a lead, etc. ESPECIALLY with live electronic music.
#93
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
I totally agree with you about the price. My only reference is that DSI achieved this for about $150 (street price) more than the Arturia.
Are you talking about the Mopho keyboard? A lot less controls on there. DSI cheated a little by doubling up many of the controls. So for example there are 3 envelopes but only 1 set of physical controls, which are switchable with a button (you can affect envelope 1, 2 or 3 or all 3 together). It's the same for all the sections I think. This makes it cheaper because there are less pots, less pot scanning to do and therefore a cheaper, smaller step to having patch memory.
#94
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laikenf View Post
Never compare a synthesist to a guitarist
Too late, the comparison was already made and my reply was a reply to a reply to the comparison.

Obviously if you're a patch-hopper the analogy doesn't work, but for many applications of live synth playing the analogy is apt enough.

Personally, I'm quite looking forward to my first foray into the patchless synth world via the Minibrute. Compared to my Tetra this thing is the other opposite end of the spectrum and I'm hoping they balance each other out. One to keep all my patches saved to be tweaked remotely, and one as a purely hands-on manual instrument.
#95
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy73 View Post
Are you talking about the Mopho keyboard? A lot less controls on there. DSI cheated a little by doubling up many of the controls. So for example there are 3 envelopes but only 1 set of physical controls, which are switchable with a button (you can affect envelope 1, 2 or 3 or all 3 together). It's the same for all the sections I think. This makes it cheaper because there are less pots, less pot scanning to do and therefore a cheaper, smaller step to having patch memory.
Yes I was. And I agree...DSI is a bit more of a compromise ie not only controls, but some simple menus while Arturia is more for the purist. So perhaps the $150 increase to make an Arturia with sys-ex and patch save is unrealistic?
#96
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
  #96
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1) Sonicaly, this is long lost son of Korg 700/700s/770 and MS-10. Unfortunately, people already made a connection to SH-101 because of layout. This will not sound like SH-101. It will certainly not sound like Minimoog.
2) It doesn't have patch storage. It doesn't transmit sysex. It doesn't do anything like that. It's 1975 approach.

But nevertheless, in next year or so, a bunch of people will complain that Minibrute:
1) is not "phat" as Mini or Pro-One
2) doesn't have patch storage
That's most unfortunate, but that's the way it will be.

Perspective (not that it will matter much, but I have to do it):
Discrete analog ADSR envelope is simple. Voltage controled ADSR (that you need for patch storage) is not. Patch storage = price goes up, up, up. Ok, but you can do software envelopes and lfos. It's actually simple. Now, if I have 2 software envelopes, why not add 2 more? And few sequencers as well. And lets face it, throwing digital osc or two on top is no big deal now. But now you have mucho parameters. Hmmm, put something like matrix interface to keep cost reasonable. Ok, sounds familiar? Yeah, it's called desktop Evolver.
BTW, 6 input mixer in front of VCF? That's 6 VCAs and 6 DAC channels if you want patch storage. No sane engineer will do that. I wouldn't do it. That's allmost as much hardware thrown as rest of the synth takes.

This is full blown analog synth. It was designed by Yves Usson, guy who does "proper" analog modular stuff. If QC in manufacturing phase is semidecent it will work as advertised out of the box. Very little software inside + experineced analog designer = just make them and sell them. Ask Tetr4 owners when is next OS revision for their box.
It will not please moogoids. And, once more, it will not store any patches.
#97
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Yes I was. And I agree...DSI is a bit more of a compromise ie not only controls, but some simple menus while Arturia is more for the purist. So perhaps the $150 increase to make an Arturia with sys-ex and patch save is unrealistic?
I guess only Arturia could really answer that. But there are a shed load of parameters on the Minibrute all with there own pots/sliders. That's a lot of stuff to digitally map to save into a patch. The Mopho keyboard has a lot less.
#98
2nd February 2012
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I think its great it doesn't have patch storage, I heard that such a thing requires many op-amps? and that ruins the sound a bit...want to save patch? take pics

I wonder how much it would have been more to include more keys...I guess that would've required a bigger case...its the only real disappointment with this synth and I think many more people would have been interested if it had more keys.
#99
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy73 View Post
IThat's a lot of stuff to digitally map to save into a patch.
Scaning front end controls is like super cheap. Like, something like dsPIC33FJ32GS610 is $5 and it has 24 ADC channels. That's scanning 24 pots and sliders. Now 24 DACs, thats not that cheap and easy. And when you have your volatges, you have to do something with them. Those sliders for VCF mixer, those are plain-old-sliders. You have to put VCA for each one inside if you want voltage control and patch recall. If you would do Minibrute with full patch storage, it would end up more expensive than doing something with 3 VCOs + VCF +VCA.
Yves and Arturia guys pulled as much as they could out of this, IMveryHO.
#100
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recnsci View Post
Ask Tetr4 owners when is next OS revision for their box. It will not please moogoids. And, once more, it will not store any patches.
Very unfortunate comparison with the Tetra since that one has 4 voices and most bugs in its OS are about the multimode. As a normal mono/duophonic or tetraphonic synth it works extremely well and is capable of things the Arturia couldn't even dream of (of course the Arturia seem to have its merits too)...the stupid software editor is another story of course...
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#101
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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No storage? No problem just take a picture with you phone & your good to go.

I personalty like the aggressive sound it produces & am so glad its not a moog this or Arp that bla bla bal. Give us something different!
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#102
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
  #102
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Btw, Musicians Friend emailed me to officially inform me it's back ordered (I knew that).
#103
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laikenf View Post
The way I see it is that none of us here will say: "Oh it has patch memory? forget it, I'm not buying this synth", while some WILL actually say: "no patch memory? next..." See what I mean?
Actually, I feel pretty confident that there are people on here that would pass on it if it had patch memory. Probably quite a few more over at Muffs. Not having patch memory is part of the appeal... it will never sound the same twice. I love that my SEM has no patch mem and lack of patch mem has been one of the major draws to this synth.
#104
2nd February 2012
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Only 2 of my synths have patch storage. The more complicated the architecture, the more need for patch storage. The more simple the architecture, the less of a need for it. If you can't recall a patch on something like the MB in under 30 seconds, then you might need to look elsewhere.
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#105
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recnsci View Post
1) Sonicaly, this is long lost son of Korg 700/700s/770 and MS-10. Unfortunately, people already made a connection to SH-101 because of layout. This will not sound like SH-101. It will certainly not sound like Minimoog.

Something similar occurred to me when I was listening to pushpull's demo. It sounds like some of the more interesting niche-y synths of the 70s, and all the better for it. The sound reminds me of early Korg, obscure japanese monos, or even Italian monos.
#106
2nd February 2012
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I like the sound from the demos I've heard. It doesn't sound like any synth I currently have (and I have LOTS of analog synths). I preordered one. For me, at this price point it's in impulse buy territory. Would I prefer patch memory? Sure. But if it drove the price too much higher I'd then want a second VCO and probably some other features or it wouldn't be as interesting to me.

Maybe at some point in the future they'll do a more fully-featured 2 oscillator synth with patch memory (the Brute?) but I like what they've come up with. Nice to have the Steiner-Parker filter (I don't have any synths with that), and I like the character of the Metalizer and the Brute Factor (is that just a name to trademark that means the filter output is fed back into itself?).

Nice (and different!) sounds, small package, simple to use with a slider or knob for every function, impulse-buy price? Count me in.

And hey, I've been pretty anti-Arturia. I'm not happy with their plugins (I have the V Collection) and wouldn't touch the Origin with a stick, but this is different and I think they're come up with an enticing product.
#107
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gruvsyco View Post
Actually, I feel pretty confident that there are people on here that would pass on it if it had patch memory. Probably quite a few more over at Muffs. Not having patch memory is part of the appeal... it will never sound the same twice. I love that my SEM has no patch mem and lack of patch mem has been one of the major draws to this synth.
I really doubt that, modular users have no choice, I have no choice with my OS, you have no choice with your SEM, same with hundreds of analogs that have no patch memory; and that's OK, they are what they are and we love'em for it; NONE of that undermines the benefit of patch memory though. Yes, we get around and appreciate the synths without it, again no choice, so we compromise and do our thing anyway but you still don't find yourself saying "god the cool thing about this is that I can't save" (and I admit that you buy a synth in spite of it not because of it) , you value the sound, the filter, the envelopes, etc., not the inability to save.
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#108
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
  #108
Bio
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Quote:
NONE of that undermines the benefit of patch memory though.
The cool thing without patch memory is that the knobs actually show you the sound the synth make. And if you tweak a knob you have instant gratification.

With patch memory you can't do that. Or you need endless encoders that don't have the feel of analog pots.

That a reason why some people prefer a simple synth like the minibrute without preset.
#109
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio View Post
The cool thing without patch memory is that the knobs actually show you the sound the synth make. And if you tweak a knob you have instant gratification.

With patch memory you can't do that. Or you need endless encoders that don't have the feel of analog pots.

That a reason why some people prefer a simple synth like the minibrute without preset.
Sounds more like an obsession than a reason honestly.
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#110
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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Bio
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To like a good ergonomy is an obsession ?

If you don't feel the same it's cool, but your view is not the only one.

My opinion is as valid as your.

To me a simple synth like this do not really need memory, if you need it, you are certainly obsessive about it...
#111
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio View Post
The cool thing without patch memory is that the knobs actually show you the sound the synth make. And if you tweak a knob you have instant gratification.

With patch memory you can't do that. Or you need endless encoders that don't have the feel of analog pots.

That a reason why some people prefer a simple synth like the minibrute without preset.
So if you tweak a knob on a synth with memory you don't have instant gratification...or the pots (not endless encoders) on my Tetra and my friends' P08 pot edition are not really pots but something else...
Bio
#112
2nd February 2012
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Bio
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You have to reach the "real" value, not the same as a knob in his "true" position.

No need to play with words, each opinion is valid

What about the fact that you can "read" your patch just from the knobs ?
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#113
2nd February 2012
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And no need to be defensive : the minibrute won't have patch memory, it's just like that.

You like it or not, it stay as it is.
#114
2nd February 2012
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I'm totally bemused by GS. This thing ticks soooo many boxes, and of all thing things to worry about it's the patch memory!!! Goodness gracious.

IMO working with a simple analogue synth eventually leads you to treat all the dials as creating a variation of the same sound, and they just become different parts of the instrument, to be tuned on the fly the same way as keys or a mod wheel. You learn where they go to get the sound you want, and if it's not quite the same from one time to the next, well, it's no big deal because on a good monosynth any setting sounds good :-)

I reckon they're onto a winner here. I for one am sold :-) :-)

All they need now, to make me 100% happy, is a endcheek Keytar mod.
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#115
2nd February 2012
Old 2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio View Post
You like it or not, it stay as it is.
This should be the final word on patch memory. If you need patch memory move along and find a product that has it, because this one doesn't and they're not going to redesign it now that it's been launched.
#116
2nd February 2012
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If you need patch memory on a monosynth I feel sorry for you son

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#117
2nd February 2012
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Would I buy a synth without patch memory? certainly, I have and have had a few, just like any other synth, if I like it it's keeper; Is it something that adds value to a synth? I don't think so; does it ruin the programming experience? Of course not; IS IT A USEFUL FEATURE? definitely. THAT'S my point.
#118
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bio View Post
The cool thing without patch memory is that the knobs actually show you the sound the synth make. And if you tweak a knob you have instant gratification.

That a reason why some people prefer a simple synth like the minibrute without preset.
Well said, and I'm surprised this idea is getting such knee-jerk flack. My least favorite thing about the Mopho KB is I can't just look at it and see what's happening. It takes the "hardwareness" out of the equation. Boo.

I think it's fairly intuitive and useful for instance to hear a really bright sound and see that your filter is wide open. On a synth with storage, who knows... WYSINotWhatYouGet.

And it is borderline mandatory for learning synthesis properly.
#119
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laikenf View Post
Would I buy a synth without patch memory? certainly, I have and have had a few, just like any other synth, if I like it it's keeper; Is it something that adds value to a synth? I don't think so; does it ruin the programming experience? Of course not; IS IT A USEFUL FEATURE? definitely. THAT'S my point.
Don't waste your time...it's obvious everyone here must persuade others that he's right and they're wrong...classic game of little boys...

In the end, everyone has their own preferences, workflow and needs and the others can go to hell!
#120
2nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projectwoofer View Post
Don't waste your time...it's obvious everyone here must persuade others that he's right and they're wrong...classic game of little boys...

In the end, everyone has their own preferences, workflow and needs and the others can go to hell!
Yeah, I actually can't believe I went this far, but you are right, everyone does what they should how they should...
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