Upgrading for that extra 10% magic

[digital 1010]

Hi,

Just wondered what everyones thoughts were on this.

When is started i was all mixers,hardware before vsts really existed. then i slowly sold stuff off made the move from cubase to logic and had every plugin i came across (all bought) but these days I've really simplified my working setup and through trial and error of pulling my hair out over the years found some methods that really suit my way of working and have resorted to not buying anything for nearly a year.

I mix and master all my own stuff and feel slowly and surely i'm getting a far better sound and seem to have made it a quest to get the best sound "I" can get myself. I know if i went to a proper mastering engineer id prob take my tracks that next 10 - 20% but i really want to do it myself In fact i have had stuff mastered by some awesome mastering engineers but i still felt although my mixes were good I could do better than what i gave them.

Currently my mix buss chain is only
Cytomic Glue doing 2-3 db 2.1 compression to errr glue haha
PSP noble eq a nice small 3db boost round the bottom a bit of mid mud cut and some filtering
T racks brickwall limiter to get the level up

I hardly use any eq or compressor plugins apart from the logic built in ones and psp Squad and tend to try and fit sounds into the mix than make them fit afterwards.

My dilemma is that the Glue and PSP Noble really are quality plugins and 1 area I'm interested in going hardware is firstly replacing the Glue and Noble with real units.

My thinking is though to make the difference in quality worth it would i need to go uber expensive say API,GML,Massive Passive,chandler etc etc or would more midrange kit like TK BC mk2, Elysia Expressor, api lunchbox cheaper units make that much difference ??

Ill put my self on the line and heres a clip of the latest thing I'm currently working on.

ill self critique first
I think the mix is pretty solid, low end is pretty close but not quite there in that it could be bigger and more defined, its a bit too slammed espec round the higher mids making it a little harsh in places but overall its got a pretty good overall level without being utterly destroyed and to be fair id probably pull it back a touch. Also vocal def needs pulling in a touch (i think)

When i listen to my fav artists - Radioslave, Tigerstripes, Lutzenkirchen, Robert Babicz, Aki Bergen,Extrawelt, Guy J I can hear that extra 10-20% in their stuff.

I know most of them are hardware guys and that's what makes me wonder if going hardware on the mix buss to start things off will help me on my conquest. Im also very very aware those guys listed above are at the very top of their game and further trial and error and practice will also be needed.

Do you think the a midpriced hardware change would add some more magic or would you stay with the plugins if you couldn't afford the real top level stuff.

Feel free to give me pointers on the mix constructively I'm happy to take on board any comments

Ben

[digital 1010]

Anyone ?

[Barfunkel]

Originally Posted by digital 1010

Do you think the a midpriced hardware change would add some more magic or would you stay with the plugins if you couldn't afford the real top level stuff.

For mastering, I wouldn't bother with midpriced hardware. Either use software or spend 50k+ on gear, monitors and room treatment.

Anyways, I think mastering is overrated (not that it isn't important, it is, but it should be pretty low on the priority list of a bedroom producers). Good sound sources (you didn't list what you use, but some well-chosen analog synths would probably benefit a lot more than mastering hardware), good monitors, room treatment, maybe some outboard to run synths/samples through to get some analog "presence".

Don't get me wrong, I would love to own a bunch of mastering harware myself too. It just isn't important right now as you can't polish a turd. There are tons of things I need to buy (and improve my skills) before self-mastering besides some basic software compression (I use Glue on the 2-bus too) and limiting becomes important.

I'd focus on getting a professional quality product first, and that means tons of practice. And some well-chosen, not so expensive gear.

[digital 1010]

Nice one for the reply

I'm all good on the actual tools to make the music,synths,monitors,room,beats, Daw etc.

I've had a load of releases,self mastered and properly mastered. I'm also on a label that im really happy with that does well so im good on all that score.

I'm lucky in that Music is not my main income so i can do it more for the love than fame and fortune (which although nice doesn't really appeal to my lifestyle of kids/kiting and stuff) and lately have been writing stuff for Kitesurfing videos which is my other massive passion in life rather than just club focussed stuff.

I just want to push out the best quality product i can possibly do which I'm always trying to better every time i start something new and seem to be making headway from all aspects from composition through to mixing and mastering. Although frustrating at times i like the eternal battle to try and sound as good as the people i aspire too

Im more interested in whether mid priced gear like listed above say the TK Bm mark 2 in replace of the Glue and a similar priced eq in place of the Noble would really give me that much more in terms of sound quality. Both are amazing plugins and wonder how closely they stack against the mid ranged stuff.

Im all happy to buy even if it makes only 5-10% difference in focusing low end and punch and adding a touch more mojo, but I'm wondering how much they would add.

As plugins are so much better these days (especially the glue and noble)do you need to jump passed the mid-ranged stuff to the higher level to really notice a difference or would even mid-ranged stuff be noticeably different. I'm talking that extra slight goo/and punch and focusing that hardware def brings to the party.

Ben

[Resonance5]

L2 is your friend

[lowkey]

I recently bought a TK Audio BC1 compressor for my master buss and let me tell you it is a huge improvement over Cytomic The Glue, which I also have. I would say its more than just 10% better. It cost me less than $1000.

Then I bought a DIY made eq based on the trident B console and it has also made a big difference, particularly if you are boosting frequencies...I find plugins much better just for cutting. I believe that TK Audio is working on an EQ unit too...

So yes...these two hardware units cost me $1700. Big improvement to my overall sound. I too wanted or lusted after an API2500 and 5500, but I didn't have 5 or 6 thousand bucks sitting around...but I'm happy with what I have now...

...until I can afford a UBK Clariphonic :P

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by lowkey

I recently bought a TK Audio BC1 compressor for my master buss and let me tell you it is a huge improvement over Cytomic The Glue, which I also have. I would say its more than just 10% better. It cost me less than $1000.

Then I bought a DIY made eq based on the trident B console and it has also made a big difference, particularly if you are boosting frequencies...I find plugins much better just for cutting. I believe that TK Audio is working on an EQ unit too...

So yes...these two hardware units cost me $1700. Big improvement to my overall sound. I too wanted or lusted after an API2500 and 5500, but I didn't have 5 or 6 thousand bucks sitting around...but I'm happy with what I have now...

...until I can afford a UBK Clariphonic :P

Brilliant thanks mate, really good to get an answer from someone who is using the same gear/thinking upgrading to the same things.

Can i ask even after the honey moon period of using the TK over glue do you still notice the difference ?

I also wonder whether to go 500 series starting with the elysia comp and maybe adding some eq's later.

Ben

[lowkey]

Well, I run a hybrid setup with hardware synths and fx units, alongside vst instruments and fx...they all run through the BC1 and eq.

Rather than having to record my synths, then running the audio tracks through The Glue on the master buss in my daw I hear the compression immediately before recording. It's much better for getting the vibe...perhaps if I was purely itb, that advantage wouldn't matter. My tracks sound finished much earlier having the compression and eq on there from the beginning.

I still use the Glue on individual tracks and occasionally on group tracks in Cubase, generally on 'mastering transparent' preset, and then they go through the hardware gear. But bypass the BC1 and you lose something and just want to turn it back on!

[Radiance]

Hardware does not have to be better sounding, it just works faster.
You're much likelier try some extra EQ on the master if you just can grab a knobs instead of opening a pluggin first.

OTHO, you're missing recall...

[cdog]

Buying more gear will only take you so far, while having years of experience doing mixing and mastering in a high quality monitoring environment is irreplaceable.

The best way to learn mixing and mastering is hang out with people who are really, really good at it, and learn from them. Trying to do it alone, is almost impossible, and no gear will "get you there" if you dont know what "there" is or how to get there.

[Resonance5]

Op the truth is that once you've got good converters and monitors you can get there with clever Itb mixing.

Itb Multi band compression and limiting is unique

[digital 1010]

That is exactly how i work mate

The mix comp is engaged from the very first Kick as is the noble EQ the limiter is in bypass till the mix is done, all mix work is done in the channels not on the main buss.

I then work hybrid using synths and stuff or audiounits.

Really im looking at good hardware eq and comp for mixbuss,various hardware synths externally which i have/had and the rest all logic,softsynths samples etc

If found using Wavealchemy stuff my lust for anything beat related has gone out the window, using stylus and battery with a few of their collections is awesome and utter quality from the outset.

Im going to grab a couple of the new synths out from Namm like the pulse 2 and minibrute and toying with getting a voyager.

Ive had/had Jd990/800 supernova,waldorf q, futureretro777,jomox airbase,mopho,emu externe lead.

Im thinking ill get in the spring
TK BCmk2
Pulse 2
Moog voyager
and maybe an eq later in the summer

Thats my ideal setup at midrange prices i think

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Resonance5

Op the truth is that once you've got good converters and monitors you can get there with clever Itb mixing.

Itb Multi band compression and limiting is unique

My room is pretty well treated with an apogee ensemble and quested s7's

thanks

Ben

[Resonance5]

ha i've got the s7 too.

i recently got an elysia xpressor to put on the 2 bus. but the main problem was the recall. everything gets so slow with hardware its difficult to keep up with it.

What i do now is finish the mix itb with an rme (i've got plenty hardware synths btw) and then do a 16 ch sum with 2 orpheus and a summing box(no big deal but it gives that smooth, open pro sound)

then i take the same mastering chain i mixed in and optimize it for the summed mixdown. the quality and loudenss is fairly enough for edm standards, adding hardware will probably make it better but it simply takes too much time.

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by Resonance5

What i do now is finish the mix itb with an rme (i've got plenty hardware synths btw) and then do a 16 ch sum with 2 orpheus and a summing box(no big deal but it gives that smooth, open pro sound)

Why not strap the elysia xpressor behind the summing box? Take a pic of the settings...save with the song file...

[Resonance5]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Why not strap the elysia xpressor behind the summing box? Take a pic of the settings...save with the song file...

i tried, but in the end seeing how much plugins can push, considering my bank account and the benefits of the xpressor i decided to return it (sadly).

probably i'll spend that money on another pair of monitors or room treatment.

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Resonance5

Op the truth is that once you've got good converters and monitors you can get there with clever Itb mixing.

Itb Multi band compression and limiting is unique

Out of these artists how many do you reckon are totally ITB with no hardware whatsoever

Robert Babicz
Radio Slave
Lutzenkirchen
Guy J
Deep child
Extrawelt
Umek
Gorge
Aki Bergen

They are artists i really like and think don't use engineers and do a lot of mixing and writing themselves .I know you can get a great sound 100% ITB i know many people who do and I also like artists i know are ITB, I don't think the sound I'm trying to attain is an 100% ITB sound going on the people I've listed above.

Of course if 80% or more of those above are totally ITB then I'm wrong and accept that.

Ignore skills and experience a second , Im talking purely swapping out a top end plugs like glue or noble for midrange hardware making my sound more like the people i like giving me that extra 10% mojo and solid feel, or would it make no noticeable difference at all because i don't have a chandler eq a massive passive or the other pieces of gear that cost a small fortune?

This isnt an ITB vs OTB thing at all its a trying to get the sound i like which i don't think is an ITB sound but wondering if I'm wrong and its totally about skills and not gear at all.

Me personally with due respect don't think anyone could have a sound like Robert Babicz for example, no matter how good their skills were 100%ITB. It would sound, well ITB, which i feel is a more modern,tight,clearer crystally harder sound than hardware which i feel is more smeared but smoother deeper. And I'm NOT saying either is better im saying thats what i think, and think i prefer a more hybrid /OTB track than a totally ITB track- am i wrong ??

Did that all make sense hahahah

Ben

[Radiance]

Sampling from vinyl will most definitely give you an OTB sound...

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Sampling from vinyl will most definitely give you an OTB sound...

eh funnily enough I've got your cellophane track on additive on vinyl

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by digital 1010

eh funnily enough I've got your cellophane track on additive on vinyl

Cellophane was not my best mixing job...Ian Wilky remix is ACE though...
Feel free to sample ;-)

But seriously, layering vinyl noise (or any noise) WILL give a track warmth.

[lowkey]

Nice list of artists...I know Rick (deepchild) and he wasn't itb, at least while he was in Australia. I dunno his setup now that he is in Berlin.

And Babicz for sure isn't.

I'm in no way an anti software guy...he'll, reaktor is my favorite synth, even compared to my analogues...run it through a Roland Space Echo, eq and compression and it sounds amazing.

I think for electronic music mid range hardware will do what you are after...improve on plugins. If you were working on sound sources that needed to remain pristine and realistic like classical, voice or jazz etc then the high end stuff might be necessary. But no one can say 'that sine wave, running through delay, a phaser and plate reverb doesn't sound natural to me' like they can about a vocal or a violin or saxophone

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by lowkey

But no one can say 'that sine wave, running through delay, a phaser and plate reverb doesn't sound natural to me' like they can about a vocal or a violin or saxophone

Well put!!

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Cellophane was not my best mixing job...Ian Wilky remix is ACE though...
Feel free to sample ;-)

But seriously, layering vinyl noise (or any noise) WILL give a track warmth.

Can i ask (tell me to jog on by all means)

Do you feel over the years you've improved so much, that your earlier releases you wish you could have done now with the skills you had. Or do you feel that its ok as an artist to put stuff out that at the time is the best of your skills but isn't as good as you are 5 -10 years later. Your stuff is really good and toplevel but from that comment i can see you as an artists have mixes out there your think you could have done better.

I sometimes feel like my beatport back catalogue is a library for all to see of me improving my sound in the public domain when maybe i could have waited and released later as i got better and saved them the torture. I've always tried to put out the best i possibly can, and its not utter crap (i hope) and i guess at least im up and going ,stuff gets out there and i get good feedback the odd chart entry and I'm doing what i want to do, but im still not 100% happy that I'm at the best i can be and always striving to improve.

Hence this whole thread really, i just want to keep improving my sound, not at all fussed with fame or fortune i just want people to respect my sound and hear that its quality and strong in a club and makes girls bums wiggle

For the record i thought that cellophane mix was wicked mate, that vinyl always sounded classy to me and mature compared to a lot of stuff around then

Ben

[Resonance5]

@digital 1010

imo the mojo you talk about you get it with hardware synths (analog DCO VCO and digital).

Rob Babicz signature sound doesn't come from the compressors he has, but from the SH 101 for example.

getting few rolands from the 80s (instead of HW comps) wouldn't be a bad idea...

btw once you pack the mix with 1 band compressors i don't see the reason of putting more on the master bus.

i would use only limiters and multiband comps with slight settings

Originally Posted by Radiance

Cellophane was not my best mixing job...Ian Wilky remix is ACE though...
Feel free to sample ;-)

But seriously, layering vinyl noise (or any noise) WILL give a track warmth.

that's brilliant! i'll try it ASAP

[digital 1010]

Originally Posted by Resonance5

@digital 1010

imo the mojo you talk about you get it with hardware synths (analog DCO VCO and digital).

Rob Babicz signature sound doesn't come from the compressors he has, but from the SH 101 for example.

getting few rolands from the 80s (instead of HW comps) wouldn't be a bad idea...

btw once you pack the mix with 1 band compressors i don't see the reason of putting more on the master bus.

i would use only limiters and multiband comps with slight settings



that's brilliant! i'll try it ASAP

I don't use any other compressors apart from the logic one for sidechaining off the kick on parts etc. Maybe thats my problem It's why i feel 1 good quality Compressor might add some magic. Eq wise i only do small boosts with the noble and Squad here and there the rest is all LPF +HPF with the stock logic channel eq so again would a vibey hardware eq shine more. i really try and get the sound to fit at source rather than compress and eq it.

An sh101 or the new minibrute - or will i open a whole new can of worms with that question hahahah

Maybe a nice preamp for the synths like the Overstayer stuff as at present for a bit of something like that i use the Decpaitator plug really subtely to add some girth after they come in direct into the apogee.

Maybe i need to be a proper gearslut and just buy it all and worry afterwards

Ben

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by digital 1010

Do you feel over the years you've improved so much, that your earlier releases you wish you could have done now with the skills you had. Or do you feel that its ok as an artist to put stuff out that at the time is the best of your skills but isn't as good as you are 5 -10 years later.

I always think my mixes can be better...maybe this is an healthy state of mind to keep improving. OTOH, don't be harsh on yourself.
I started doing this because I just LOVE experimenting with sounds, being in the studio...creating music etc. etc. it's just bloody awesome to be able to do this all in your bedroom. Never forget this...
Do try to release stuff when you (and a couple of other people) think you're ready.

Also, I remember buying a (at the time) high end compressor (focusrite red3). I always thought that this would give an instant boost in quality.
Somehow it did, not because of the compressor, but because I was trying so much harder to make my mixes sound good to justify the huge investment (3K euro or so, 8 years ago I think...).
So yes, do buy stuff if you believe in it...:-)

[CfNorENa]

Originally Posted by Resonance5

Rob Babicz signature sound doesn't come from the compressors he has, but from the SH 101 for example.

Hmmm. Not sure everyone would agree with that. I have very little experience when it comes to high-end analog outboard, but I thought the general view was that his sound (insofar as he HAS "a" sound) really was a product of his signal processing, rather than the sound sources.

Thoughts?

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Hardware does not have to be better sounding, it just works faster.

True, hardware doesn't *have* to be better sounding... but the good stuff almost uniformly is.

I design and manufacture both hardware and software, so I'm fully aware of and sensitive to the advantages and disadvantages of both platforms; but in terms of raw sonics, texture, transient fidelity, and overall impact, hardware still has a very clear advantage to my ears.

That said...

Originally Posted by cdog

Buying more gear will only take you so far, while having years of experience doing mixing and mastering in a high quality monitoring environment is irreplaceable.

This is still the reigning truth of the day. The actual sound quality of music and mixes is, imho, largely irrelevant to the impact it will have on most people. The balances, movement, texture, mood, coherence, and ambience of a mix are far and away what matter most, and in those regards there is very little that can't be done itb using modern tools.

It's only when the interests of the artists & engineers begin to transcend basic issues of translation that things shift; in other words, when the goal of sweeter, more pleasing sonics comes into play then hardware unreservedly asserts its authority as king of the hill. The best hardware tends to have many more beneficial effects and fewer (if any) deleterious ones compared to digital; with digital you always need to be on your guard to avoid the unwanted artifacts and sonic penalties. Analog hardware also enables, for most people, a much faster and intuitive way to shape and mix sounds.

I speak in generalities, and I do know that exceptions always apply, but I maintain that they nevertheless remain exceptions. The world is inexorably heading deeper and deeper into the box, but for now, regardless of anyone's taste or personal experience, analog is still very much king in the land of high end audio.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[CfNorENa]

Originally Posted by u b k

The actual sound quality of music and mixes is, imho, largely irrelevant to the impact it will have on most people. The balances, movement, texture, mood, coherence, and ambience of a mix are far and away what matter most, and in those regards there is very little that can't be done itb using modern tools.

It's only when the interests of the artists & engineers begin to transcend the basic concerns of the average listener and the goal of sweeter, more pleasing sonics comes into play that hardware begins to assert its authority as king of the hill. The best hardware tends to have more beneficial effects and fewer (if any) deleterious ones compared to digital, where you always need to be on your guard to avoid the unwanted artifacts. It's also, for most people, a much faster and intuitive way to shape and mix sounds.

Gotta be one of the more balanced and intelligent posts I've seen on this board.

[nms]

Get a TK BC2! Then post on your experience with it in comparison to the Glue. If there's no absolute improvement return or resell it. I'm considering the same.