Native Instruments - What happened to you?

[kcearl]

Originally Posted by m127c

Not sure what poor customer care, poor customer support, poor product continuity, and poor own-standards continuity by NI itself has anything to do with the Internet make believe internet world...


Would you care to explain the relationship between the below Native Instruments discontinued products and standards with the make-believe internet world?



.

Id say you implying people here are paid employees is make believe internet world


as for the software...its out of date...do you own it all?


I cant get Cubase 1.0 working on my quad core

[m127c]

Originally Posted by Ausgeno

This discussion would be so much better if someone in this thread had a list of NI software that is no longer being updated.

nice, I prefer a low to medium quality sarcasm, than apologists trying to impose that those 12 Native Instruments' abandonwares don't exist or that it makes total sense for users that NI keeps discontinuing products.


I won't list those anymore, no worries! So sorry about my ripping you all off by doing so. OMFG.








.

[m127c]

Originally Posted by blastbeat

butthurt

cut the bs.
What do you want?
that we all pretend wrong is right, or wrong makes sense, or wrong policies by NI never took place or their poor support is good support?
not happening.


I will tell you what I want.
I want actual users to keep an eye on NI business practices that do affect users. I want users to punish NI with their wallets if necessary due to NI wrongdoings until NI understands we need them to be reliable (they don't seem to understand; this is a ****ing yearly issue with them). I want users to criticize the wrong and praise the right. I want users to stand for users not for corporations or businessmen that could not care less about users. I want NI to learn once and for all that we don't appreciate them discontinuing products like that, especially products with so many co-dependencies, like KORE. I want them to suffer if they don't get the message. Users need to pull together for the interests of users.


It's clear, at least with you, you have no interest in any of that.



.


.

[djmukilteo]

This wasn't I hate NI....no I love it....hey never had a problem, it's your computer that's the problem...you can still use it....I don't think that was the intent of the thread. (well maybe it was)
The thread was started with the acknowledgement there is something wrong with NI. To some that is a given!

I just feel stupid spending the money thinking the sounds would make me a hit...LOL
So I'm kind of over the whole "native instruments" thing....I think I want something either more native like real or maybe something less native....IDK
I do know for me the whole digital software direction isn't my cup of tea anymore for making music (I'm not into DJing or loop/beat making).
I don't really get that robotic whatever you kids are calling it now anyway.
And then with all of this constant updating and fixes along with the added computer system headaches....it makes no sense anymore....it's not very organic or creative to me..it's just a big time waster!
I'm sure there are thousands of young people out there that love this stuff and love to sit around staring at a glowing screen all day and downloading stuff over and over into the night...but for me....been there...did that....ain't doing it anymore.....it was interesting at first but lost it's appeal a while ago...These companies don't care whether you buy from them again or not...there is always someone else that will get caught up in the hype.
If they can get you to spend $500 they've done their job and it's all good to go...they owe you nothing really...I have this...you bought it...it's yours.
You not really entitled to anything else in that contract...the marketplace and reputation takes care of the rest....if your unhappy and it doesn't work for you...you can try and get your money back (good luck) or get them to help you fix it....and if it isn't any good don't buy anymore!...it's just stuff you bought....like a computer or camera or phone...some stuff is crap and some stuff is OK....live and learn. Vote with your wallet! Stop the madness!
NI stuff is just another software package and lesson learned for me and I guess I can thank them for that.

[AikiGhost]

Originally Posted by m127c

Bottom line, NI keeps proving year after year it is not trustable.

So stop buying their stuff.

Personally I think Maschine and Komplete are 2 of the best value packages Ive ever layed my hands on I also thought Razor was a pretty cool synth. Nothing you can say will change that.

[Leras]

having been a komplete customer since komplete 1 i can say I haven't had too many issues overall with NI. If I ever have a problem I just call them (in Berlin) where they speak good english and are usually pretty helpful.

i think you just jump to the negatives really....

like NI KORE, ---still works fine on my pc, and pretty sure they are upgrading to 64 bit
like NI PRO-52 and NI PRO-53, -- still running pro 53
like the NI *.ksd sound format,
like NI Spektral Delay, --this also still works on my pc
like NI Kontakt constantly being imcompatible with itself (from version to version) forcing you to keep repeated 50GB libraries in your hard drives, --oh so improving things is a problem?
like NI Akoustik Piano, --this is now in a kore soundpack given away free in komplete, but the original still works fine on my pc
like NI Elektrik Piano, --as above
like NI Bandstand, --never used this one
like NI B4 and NI B4II, --nib4II still works fine on my PC, included as sound pack in komplete anyway as direct replacement
like NI Guitar Combos, --not needed for any komplete users as guitar rig is included
like NI Intakt, --kontakt covers this
like NI Kompakt, --as above
like NI Vokator,
like NI "Powered by NI", etc? --my storm drums install still works on my pc

maybe I'll have an issue when I feel the need to jump to 64bit, but NI won't be my biggest problem by a long shot...


.

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by blastbeat

NI's support has always been prompt and helpful in my experience. YMMV. Besides, in terms of tech support, it can't possibly get any worse than Akai.


Yeah, it's become quite trendy to hate on NI, as it happens to most companies as successful as them.

Blastbeat...you sound just like one other person...in the NI forums...who often quoted company lines to its death...Noiserot. Hummm.

But I do agree there are worse companies than NI for support. I have never used Akai, and MOTU is on the very bottom of my list. NI has never been very good. As you said YMMV...over the past 13 years for me...below average. Here are some experiences of USA support just in the past year.

1. Called NI USA, got a recording that said they are too busy and automatically hung up on. No chance to leave a message, just automatically hung up on after a quick recording. Do you think that is good customer service in 2012?

2. They keep changing and reducing their hours of technical support. At one point within the past year their hours were only 4 days a week and the hours of each day were 11am-4pm Pacific time.

3. Considering item 2 above, how long do you personally believe it's acceptable to wait on hold trying to tolerate distorted techno music over my speaker phone? For me, over the past 13 years the majority of my wait times have been anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes. Kind of ironic they cut their hours of support right?

Personally I have a love hate relationship with NI. I love their cutting edge technology but their support in my situations have been poor. The NI forum sometimes helps. The quality of their support has ranged from excellent to what sounds like they drug some kid off the street in total desperation. But I also know there are some good people there with personal accountability. I would guess they are overwhelmed.

NI is probably growing too fast which causes some of the problems. But other issues such as tech support have always plagued NI. If anyone wants any humorous reading, try the original Reaktor manual. It was a complete joke. You were left on your own and networking with others in a small forum. Speaking of Reaktor, if NI doesn't do something soon they will have lost that "cutting edge technology" they have relied on for the past 15 years. The problem is, that technology doesn't always translate fast enough into increased sales.

Now it seems NI is attempting to go after a wider market with all kinds of new tools...many of which other companies have much more experience. Personally for example, will Studio Drummer replace or even compete with Toontrak Superior or other well established drum applications? For me absolutely not. Will one of their piano apps make me think I should sell Ivory? Alicia Keys might come close, but the others are mostly a joke. Therefore if NI wants me to upgrade from 7 to K8U...they are going to have to put on the most incredible black Friday sale this planet has ever seen. For newbies starting out with nothing...yes K8U is a definite consideration. For others I think it's very questionable.

Looking back over the past 8 months, I see Kore sacrificed at the expense of Maschine. I own and use both. It's clearly plain why NI did what they did. They only have so much resources, and Maschine appeals to a much wider market. Even if NI worked through all the Kore bugs, and finally wrote a comprehensive manual that actually illustrated how to APPLY something in a situation...as opposed to just a description of each control, they still would not have near the user base as Maschine. Kore is/was a fantastic tool..unreplaceable...but too specialized and too undefined to the mass market...who kept asking exactly what it does, and how to apply it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe any of the discontinued Kore products can still be used on Windows 7. Unless you are on a Mac I don't understand your sorrow. These tools don't become worthless the day they become unsupported. And I never bought software expecting endless upgrades.

Really I think NI should consider a plan similar to Waves update if they continue the course they are on. As said, Komplete will never be truely complete for more than a few months. Currently their upgrade plans seem to be schizophrenic at best. For example ne person pays the same price to upgrade from K2 to K5 as the other person who has paid multiple upgrades over the years.

By the way Leras, the K5 organs are NOT a direct replacement for the B-4. Similar yes, but replacement...absolutely not.

[nickdrake101]

Originally Posted by Clonkified

I think this is more a PT issue really. PT still sucks for running virtual instruments, including Maschine. When I load Maschine in PT, it takes like 60% of the CPU on an 8-core Mac Pro. When I load it into Vienna Ensemble Pro, it is a small fraction of that. So...yeah...PT still sucks in this regard.

Maschine HAS crashed VEP once, but I think that was VEP's issue. Maschine has never crashed for me in standalone.

Yes, you're right about that..my version was, and still is, 7.4 Never did have any trouble with the standalone, but in PT! In addition, synching was an genuine nightmare. Maschine was a toy...and customer support was the all time worse I ever experienced..glad it's history.

[Clonkified]

I'm not sure how many people on this thread actually have experience with commercial software development, but eventually EVERY company has to abandon some of their products. It no longer makes technical, business, financial, etc. sense. As people have mentioned, yes, NI has abandoned some of their products, but as others have mentioned, they have tried to incorporate some of those into existing products (Kontakt) or new product lines (Vintage Organs). Expecting them to continue to support every single product they've created since they started (that's a lot) is frankly not very realistic.

[kcearl]

they have a facepalm big enough for this thread.

[Clonkified]

Originally Posted by greggybud

Personally for example, will Studio Drummer replace or even compete with Toontrak Superior or other well established drum applications? For me absolutely not. Will one of their piano apps make me think I should sell Ivory? Alicia Keys might come close, but the others are mostly a joke.

Not to derail, but what don't you like about Studio Drummer? It is 50% off right now, so was thinking about it. The demos and the interface look pretty nice, but I've never tried Superior (although I don't particular like the sound of Superior). I have SSD 3.5 and Addictive Drums (planning on selling AD though if I get Studio Drummer).

I've never tried Ivory (or Ivory II), but Alicia Keys hits the spot for my contemporary productions. And it doesn't need the ridiculous amount of HD space that Ivory II wants.

[greggybud]

Clonkified...there are threads here comparing different drum software. Briefly, Superior goes much deeper than Studio Drummer. For example mic bleed, type of sticks, beaters, etc. Superior can incorporate all the EZ Packs from Toontrak in addition to the packs in the superior line. I'm not sure what you mean by the "sound" of Superior since that is dependent on EZX packs and the SDX packs.

NI is jumping in the drum market a bit late. Apparently Battery isn't good enough anymore?

As far as pianos, I was referring to the numerous other NI pianos that lack a lot of detail, not Alicia Keys.

[miscend]

What's the difference between the different drum software in Battery, Maschine and Kontakt? I think they overlap, it's bound to confuse consumers and it shows NI don't know how to manage their products.

[machinesworking]

Originally Posted by SCSI

The thing that concerns me the most about the present state & the future of NI is that it looks like Stephan Schmitt has left to start something new.

According to it's website Nonlinear Labs was founded in Nov 2011 to develop digital musical instruments & effects.

Who is in charge of Nonlinear Labs? - Stephan Schmitt

Just wanted to say that this sounds freaking GREAT!
He seemed from an outsiders opinion to be the guy who really cared about the actual products, and if that's the case, then this will be a company to look out for!

[miscend]

Originally Posted by blastbeat

No, they all serve different purposes. Kontakt's Studio Drummer is in the category of realistic drum plugins with drag and drop MIDI file support. Battery is more suited for electronic music production in a typical mouse-centric DAW workflow. And Maschine does far more than just drums. It's a full-on workstation and a platform of its own that ties all of Komplete in a hardware-based hands-on workflow.

I disagree. It's not a realistic drum plugin because the patterns are midi presets, it's basically just another drum library. Unlike something like Rayzoon Jamstix which has a fully modelled and realistic Drummer A.I. that can completely change playing style whilst playing back the exact same midi. As for Battery you can import realistic drums samples and import midi too, which makes it not much different from Studio Drummer.

I think the Kore hardware being a more general purpose controller tied Komplete much better Maschine does with it's groove based setup.

[offki]

Originally Posted by miscend

I disagree. It's not a realistic drum plugin because the patterns are midi presets,

This makes no sense at all. Like most of your posts on this thread. Also implies you have no idea how to write your own thus rendering any input on drum software void.

Battery was a slimmed down version of kontakt with loads of features not easily available in Kontakt. If you had ever either used Kontakt to build a drum kit with individual FX per piece and multiple layers you would know this, it takes ages.. Battery has a lot of different features like Echo, humanize, Hit variations, that are not even seen in other software drum samplers.

I hate to blow your mind but you do realise the new Native Instruments Drummer series is actually Kontakt powered, so yes there is overlap between Kontakt and it's Modules, freaky stuff eh? Took a genius to see that one.

It's thread like this that quickly remind me why I don't come here any more, it's not a discussion of music or it's production it's more like a crèche.

[miscend]

Originally Posted by offki

This makes no sense at all. Like most of your posts on this thread. Also implies you have no idea how to write your own thus rendering any input on drum software void.

It makes perfect, like most of my posts in this very thread. Maybe English is not your 1st language and you have deep lack of understanding of its finer nuances. In basic terms - (IMHO) the reason why I said Studio Drummer is not a realistic drum plugin is the FACT that the 3500 MIDI patterns it comes with are fixed. Which is not realistic because that is not how real drummers play - i.e. they are not that 'static' and are prone to musically interpret. Whereas with Jamstix the patterns are not fixed and its based on the modelled AI (artificial intelligence) of a virtual drum player. So basically with Jamstix you play your own MIDI (rather than use pre-recorded Midi) and it plays that back realistically with all the little nuances and style of a real session drummer.

That's why I said Studio Drummer is basically "another drum library" (with midi presets) & not a realistic drums plugin by any stretch of the accepted definition. In an ideal scenario you would use Jamstix to trigger Studio Drummer's drum library.

Battery was a slimmed down version of kontakt with loads of features not easily available in Kontakt. If you had ever either used Kontakt to build a drum kit with individual FX per piece and multiple layers you would know this, it takes ages.. Battery has a lot of different features like Echo, humanize, Hit variations, that are not even seen in other software drum samplers.

Which basically brings us back to the FACT that there is overlap with NI's products. Because Battery already covers alot of bases when it comes to drum plugins. You can already import drum samples into it and you can already import midi. And like you said; you can also apply Echo, humanize and Hit variations. That already covers alot of the bases. All you need now are realistically multi-sampled drum libraries to use with it.

I hate to blow your mind but you do realise the new Native Instruments Drummer series is actually Kontakt powered, so yes there is overlap between Kontakt and it's Modules, freaky stuff eh? Took a genius to see that one.

It's thread like this that quickly remind me why I don't come here any more, it's not a discussion of music or it's production it's more like a crèche.

No one said Studio Drummer is not Kontakt based. They do market it as realistic drum plugin, but like I said its really just "another drum library". And easily not on par with Jamstix or even BFD2/EZdrummer et al in terms of features that model a realistic drummer.

[greggybud]

Recently the creator of Reaktor, Stephen Schmidt, left NI. For years Reaktor was considered NI's flagship program but over time Kontakt took the limelight and more recently Maschine.

From an investors standpoint it's easy to chart a course for NI. Make things that are marketable toward a much wider market. The result is Maschine...MicroMaschine...and more preset packages. Then add drums that are not nearly as comprehensive as Toontrak. Ignore improving Battery. Toss in new vintage compressors in what I see as a already flooded market. NI is definitely growing, maybe too fast.

Remember what happened to Roland 25 years ago? They had some very cool products, but they discovered the big money was in the cheap home digital consumer market...not the Jupiter 8.

Stephen was also instrumental in the development of Kore. NI killed Kore not because it was a bad tool, but because resources are limited and they wanted to focus on Maschine. Maschine generates big money. Kore, even though it was incredibly powerful and useful, had a smaller market niche, and still required lots of resources. It's sad NI won't sell off Kore to another developer for continuation, but from a business standpoint I suppose you want to eliminate any possible competition right?

And now Reaktor. NI has given it some nice easy fixes in the past year, but really there has been nothing new with it in several years. The well known builders are disenchanted. Some have moved on to other platforms. The only cool stuff in recent months for Reaktor has been released by NI themselves. NI even admitted the user forum needs an update and that was years ago, but they haven't done a thing.

Unless NI has some huge surprises in 2012, K7 is the end of the road for me. I know all business continually evolve, but maybe I didn't want to admit the direction NI was going. I'm sure Guitar Center loves what they are doing. NI has become too big, and abandoned the things I really liked about them.

[aunshui]

As a Maschine owner (and, hopefully soon, a Komplete owner), I don't have any beef with NI's choices over the past few years. Products get discontinued, it's a fact of life, and I personally think NI is making huge strides in developing software that people can actually use. The landscape of EM has changed drastically since some of these older products launched, and NI is just adapting to a changing marketplace. Times change, people change, needs change, and music changes - NI can either adapt or go out of business. I know which I'd prefer.

What would bum me out, though, is seeing NI start making branded car radios (I'm looking at you, Fender ).

[Hammy Havoc]

So if Maschine is the sort of 'consumer' level product of that variety, what alternatives are there? I like the concept of the Maschine, just not sure if I like the reality/execution of it. The Akai Renaissance didn't really catch my eye.

[mp3]

Not many businesses choose to stay small and laser focused on a niche market (within a niche market), and it should have been pretty easy from the start to identify that NI wouldn't be one of them.

[mp3]

Originally Posted by Hammy Havoc

So if Maschine is the sort of 'consumer' level product of that variety, what alternatives are there? I like the concept of the Maschine, just not sure if I like the reality/execution of it. The Akai Renaissance didn't really catch my eye.

I don't know, Maschine seems more niche to me than Kore. With Kore, you're targeting heavy plugin users. Maschine, otoh, is looking squarely at the folks who are likely to own and use 25 year old samplers. Its just that Maschine is the only product currently available in its niche; that's why its selling like hotcakes.

IMO where Kore failed was in the fact that it raised the level of complexity (like automap), and the fact that it had so much feature overlap with the one piece of software that its entire potential customer base already owned - the DAW.

[login]

I like their small synth ensembles for reaktor: prism and razor, hope they keep developing more of them.

[samsam]

Cool, another NI thread.

[Clonkified]

Originally Posted by mp3

Maschine, otoh, is looking squarely at the folks who are likely to own and use 25 year old samplers. Its just that Maschine is the only product currently available in its niche; that's why its selling like hotcakes.

Based on how many people have Maschines, that market of "folks who are likely to own and use 25 year old samplers" must be huge...

Maschine is way more than you're giving it credit for. It is much more than an MPC thanks to the support NI has given it.

[mp3]

Originally Posted by Clonkified

Based on how many people have Maschines, that market of "folks who are likely to own and use 25 year old samplers" must be huge...

Well we're niche, but we do spend And of course you gotta include all the 'folks who would use a 25 year old sampler if it had modern conveniences'... Anyway, folks like us waited soooo incredibly long for a product like Maschine.... I personally tested the DAW waters in the early 2000's and promptly ran the other way.

Originally Posted by Clonkified

Maschine is way more than you're giving it credit for. It is much more than an MPC thanks to the support NI has given it.

Well that depends on which MPC we're talking about. They're not all the same. To me Maschine is swings and roundabouts compared to my 2500. And by the way, not every old school sampler is an MPC.

[ughbaw]

'took the limelight'

lmao too good

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by mp3

Not many businesses choose to stay small and laser focused on a niche market (within a niche market), and it should have been pretty easy from the start to identify that NI wouldn't be one of them.

I suppose that's right. I didn't want to see them go beyond Reaktor and it's original offspring (B4, Pro-52, FM8, Massive, Absynth) plus Kontakt, if you call that a niche market.

There is so much more potential for Reaktor but it would never appeal to a wide market. Same goes for Kore.

From the business standpoint..it makes perfect sense to do what they are doing. A few die-hard old farts will be alienated, that is to be expected.

I use Maschine too, and I like it. But I hate to see so much energy focused on Maschine at the expense of Reaktor and Kore. Business wise..it makes perfect sense.

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by login

I like their small synth ensembles for reaktor: prism and razor, hope they keep developing more of them.

I do too. But what is no longer...is the potential for future incredible ensembles by well known Reaktor builders who do it for the love of doing it. Many of these people could be marketing the ensembles, but for different reasons choose not to do so.

Just look at the user library to see what has been accomplished. But then take a second look to see what has been accomplished in the past 2-3 years...you will notice a big slow-down.

[Cgbravo]

I think Maschine UI will eventually become a more komplete sequencer (pun unintentionally intended) lol

On their forum there are some interesting threads on the future of Maschine and some of it sounds good, I think everything will be focused on Maschine but I want some new refreshing products as well, they just released Evolve a couple more gigs than Evolve mutations =( nothing exciting has been launched in a while that is not part of Komplete 8