Komplete 8 Ultimate A Good Choice For Rounding Out Pop, Rock and Country Productions?

[Stepping_Stone]

Hi all. I work in primarily the pop, rock and country genres, and I'm looking for a good set of virtual instruments that can provide a wide range of organic, realistic sounds that will help round out my productions. Most of my tracks are built around acoustic drums via BFD or SSD, acoustic and electric guitars, fiddle, mandolin, banjo, piano, pedal steel, etc. In other words, mostly natural instruments. My question is, do you think Komplete 8 Ultimate would fit into this situation well? I'm primarily interested in some great keyboard sounds (Wurlitzer, Rhodes, B3, etc.), synth leads and pads that would work well in pop and rock arrangements (think Kelly Clarkson, Disturbed, Death Cab For Cutie, and everything in between), strings, and percussion samples (shakers, tambourines, djembe, etc.) I've been through the demos on the NI site, and I heard a few examples that peaked my interest, but it's really hard to tell how in-depth the collection would go as far as my needs. Any thoughts? Thanks.

[aunshui]

No, I would say not.

[Stepping_Stone]

For clarification, when I say country, I'm referring to mostly modern country. In other words, pop with a fiddle and a banjo.

[Stepping_Stone]

Originally Posted by aunshui

No, I would say not.

Thanks for the response. If you don't mind expounding on your answer a bit, what specifically makes you think it won't work? Are there other products you think I should be looking at that would be more suitable?

[Persemone]

Of course Komplete would be a good choice... GS will likely only ever point you in the direction of something vintage, monophonic and analog, it seems at times.

K8 gives you some excellent keys, strings and percussion sounds along with Kontakt as a means of further developing via new libraries... there are plenty of professionals who use K8 in every genre. I can't think of any reason other than some misplaced snobbery that Kontakt wouldn't be seen as a good way of adding flavours to a track, especially if the alternative is hiring out session time.

[Entrainer]

I would assume the answer is yes...
but you might want to check with
people who live and breathe Rock
and Country productions.

Perhaps the computer subforum or
even "so much gear, so little time"
would be a good place to check.

K8-Ultimate might be overkill...
but it's the cheapest way to get some
of those libraries and software all at
once.

You could also check in here:
KVR: Forum - Samples, Sampling and Sample Libraries

There are likely some great independent sample
libraries for specific instruments suited for your
genres.

Actually, come to think of it...
Komplete 8 could be confusing and overwhelming.
Just get Kontakt Player and some good libraries.

I doubt you'll be spending days and days programming
synth patches. Omnisphere by Spectrasonics should
have a ton of presets that are easy to search and
useful for pop. As well as Trillian.

I pose these answers as "should", "could", and "might"
because I really don't know for certain. These are
my best guesses based on being around the industry
and gear for so long. But I bet if you asked a Country
producer what to use for techno, his answers would
be vastly different than mine.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

I'd agree Kontakt and Libraries would probably be the better way to go. Kontakt alone, straight out of the box, will cover all the bases mentioned in the wishlist and from there, expand into whatever you feel is lacking.

[enossified]

Originally Posted by Phil_The_Rodent

I'd agree Kontakt and Libraries would probably be the better way to go. Kontakt alone, straight out of the box, will cover all the bases mentioned in the wishlist and from there, expand into whatever you feel is lacking.

I guess the weird thing is Kontakt is $400, Komplete is $500 and includes a bunch of useful libraries, like the organs and acoustic pianos. I'd go with Komplete and just not install everything...like skip over Absynth for sure

[aunshui]

Originally Posted by Persemone

Of course Komplete would be a good choice... GS will likely only ever point you in the direction of something vintage, monophonic and analog, it seems at times.

I can't think of any reason other than some misplaced snobbery that Kontakt wouldn't be seen as a good way of adding flavours to a track, especially if the alternative is hiring out session time.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that this reply wasn't aimed straight at me, because that would be the kind of "jumping to conclusions" rarely seen outside of the Olympics, but since it's no longer 3am, I'll take a few minutes to go ahead and clarify my earlier remark.

Have a look at this review here. Although any review is subjective, this is one of the more comprehensive and accurate assessments of Komplete 8 Ultimate I've seen.

You say that you make "Pop, Rock, and Country." When I hear those genres, even given the ubiquity of electronic sounds in popular music these days, the first thing that comes to mind is not Komplete. Why? Well, again, this is subjective, but I'd say that Komplete is really aimed at the electronic crowd, specifically dance music producers, with a few notable exceptions. I say this because of precedent. About 90% of Komplete is crazy-huge synths, like Massive, Absynth, and FM8. Reaktor, while extraordinarily versatile, is again primarily aimed at EM producers. And while all these synths could probably provide sounds that you would deem "useable," I'd think that your money could be better spent on something that's going to deliver for you 90% of the time, instead of just 10%.

Ditto many of the samples - while there are no doubt some good ones that could be used outside of EM, I feel like a lot of them would go unused in your scenario. Also, as the review I referred you to points out, many of the samples are just awful, even if you buy Ultimate.

The classic compressors might not be bad, but why not just get your favorites and save money and hard drive space? Many of the other effects are probably too "crazy" for your needs as well, so again, you're buying something you'll probably never use.

And lastly there's Kontakt. While no doubt an "industry standard," do you really feel like having hundreds of gigs of unused sounds on your hard drive just to get Kontakt? If you don't mind, because they might in theory be used one day, it might not be a bad idea, but as someone who prefers to have a few nice things over many mediocre things, I'd suggest saving your money and buying just what you know you'll use.

So, to answer the question "is Komplete a good value?," yes, it is a good value, in the sense that you get a ton of stuff for a decent price. Is it a good value for you? Considering the fact that 90% of it will probably sit unused on your hard drive, I'd suggest buying the pieces you know you'll make use of and saving your money for some other softsynths/sample libraries/effects that you'll definitely use, instead of buying the whole kitchen sink when you only need the faucet.

[Entrainer]

Originally Posted by enossified

I guess the weird thing is Kontakt is $400, Komplete is $500 and includes a bunch of useful libraries, like the organs and acoustic pianos. I'd go with Komplete and just not install everything...like skip over Absynth for sure

What about Kontakt 5 Player?

He'll likely be using it to trigger only...

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by Stepping_Stone

Hi all. I work in primarily the pop, rock and country genres, and I'm looking for a good set of virtual instruments that can provide a wide range of organic, realistic sounds that will help round out my productions. Most of my tracks are built around acoustic drums via BFD or SSD, acoustic and electric guitars, fiddle, mandolin, banjo, piano, pedal steel, etc. In other words, mostly natural instruments. My question is, do you think Komplete 8 Ultimate would fit into this situation well? I'm primarily interested in some great keyboard sounds (Wurlitzer, Rhodes, B3, etc.), synth leads and pads that would work well in pop and rock arrangements (think Kelly Clarkson, Disturbed, Death Cab For Cutie, and everything in between), strings, and percussion samples (shakers, tambourines, djembe, etc.) I've been through the demos on the NI site, and I heard a few examples that peaked my interest, but it's really hard to tell how in-depth the collection would go as far as my needs. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Based on the above, I think K8u might be a bit of overkill for you. I have been using NI products since 1999's Reaktor. NI's flagship product is Reaktor (Generator/Transformator combined) which is...electronic therefore originally attracting producers of electronic, trance, techno etc. Those roots still show today with NI even though they have attempted to become all things to everyone with K8.

If you are content that you might only use 10% of K8 or 5% of K8U, then go for it.

Country: The studios I have seen in Nashville had NI products...even Kore...but didn't use them very much if ever! In Nashville, time is money. Session players keep bankers hours. NI can absorb much of your time depending on how you use their applications. I witnessed much frustration the few times someone was trying to accomplish something with an NI product.

Pop/rock: Based on the artists mentioned, look for a good basic workstation type VST. Or go for the NI Player and then if needed upgrade to Kontakt. Find an old version of Kontakt for sale. NI offers obscenely low prices to get you to upgrade to the newest version. It's actually insulting to a person who upgrades from 4 to 5 because if you have 2 you pay the same price! That could be much less expensive than purchasing a new version of Kontakt.

[enossified]

Originally Posted by Entrainer

What about Kontakt 5 Player?

OK, let's go to the NI store and check pricing:

Komplete 8 $500, Kontakt $400

Kontakt player libraries:

Vintage Organs $119
Scarbee MkI (Rhodes) $79
Scarbee Clavs $79
Scarbee A200 (Wurli) $79
Retro Machines (vintage synths) $79

OK, that's already $455. You get all of them in Komplete 8 and you get the full version of Kontakt covering strings and percussion. The libraries really only make sense if you're buying 1 or 2.

A better budget alternative to Kontakt/Komplete is something like IK Multimedia's Sampletank XL which is often on sale for less than the $230 retail price...newegg has it right now for $99. There's also Sampletank Free which has a reduced soundset (500MB of samples vs. 6.4GB) but might be good enough for what the O.P. is after...

[Stepping_Stone]

Originally Posted by Entrainer

I would assume the answer is yes...
but you might want to check with
people who live and breathe Rock
and Country productions.

Perhaps the computer subforum or
even "so much gear, so little time"
would be a good place to check.

Ok, I'll definitely ask over there as well.

Originally Posted by Entrainer

K8-Ultimate might be overkill...
but it's the cheapest way to get some
of those libraries and software all at
once.

Yeah, I realize that there is probably plenty of stuff in Ultimate that I may never even use, but one of the things I really liked about it was the Session Strings Pro instrument, which I believe is almost $500 by itself. Between that, Kontakt, the Scarbee keyboards, Vintage Organs, Guitar Rig Pro and Alicia's Keys (plus the other piano, guitar and bass instruments that I probably wouldn't use often, but it might be nice to have those flavors to go to once in awhile), Ultimate was really looking like a pretty good deal. I guess the crux of my question is, discounting the instruments that I obviously wouldn't be using, do the ones that I have named seem to blend well into the genres I listed without sounding canned or out of place? And is there enough under the hood of these instruments (SSP, GuitarRig Pro, Kontakt) that they will be flexible enough to cover a pretty wide range of musical contexts, or are these one trick ponies?

[Stepping_Stone]

Originally Posted by aunshui

Have a look at this review here. Although any review is subjective, this is one of the more comprehensive and accurate assessments of Komplete 8 Ultimate I've seen.

Thanks for the link, and for the reply...I actually came across that review last night before I started this thread, but I still came away with some questions about how Ultimate might fit into what I'm doing here.

Originally Posted by aunshui

You say that you make "Pop, Rock, and Country." When I hear those genres, even given the ubiquity of electronic sounds in popular music these days, the first thing that comes to mind is not Komplete. Why? Well, again, this is subjective, but I'd say that Komplete is really aimed at the electronic crowd, specifically dance music producers, with a few notable exceptions. I say this because of precedent. About 90% of Komplete is crazy-huge synths, like Massive, Absynth, and FM8. Reaktor, while extraordinarily versatile, is again primarily aimed at EM producers. And while all these synths could probably provide sounds that you would deem "useable," I'd think that your money could be better spent on something that's going to deliver for you 90% of the time, instead of just 10%.

Ditto many of the samples - while there are no doubt some good ones that could be used outside of EM, I feel like a lot of them would go unused in your scenario. Also, as the review I referred you to points out, many of the samples are just awful, even if you buy Ultimate.

The classic compressors might not be bad, but why not just get your favorites and save money and hard drive space? Many of the other effects are probably too "crazy" for your needs as well, so again, you're buying something you'll probably never use.

And lastly there's Kontakt. While no doubt an "industry standard," do you really feel like having hundreds of gigs of unused sounds on your hard drive just to get Kontakt? If you don't mind, because they might in theory be used one day, it might not be a bad idea, but as someone who prefers to have a few nice things over many mediocre things, I'd suggest saving your money and buying just what you know you'll use.

So, to answer the question "is Komplete a good value?," yes, it is a good value, in the sense that you get a ton of stuff for a decent price. Is it a good value for you? Considering the fact that 90% of it will probably sit unused on your hard drive, I'd suggest buying the pieces you know you'll make use of and saving your money for some other softsynths/sample libraries/effects that you'll definitely use, instead of buying the whole kitchen sink when you only need the faucet.

Honestly, I'm not terribly worried about what won't get used...hard drive space is cheap these days, and besides, maybe I'll decide to explore those things at some point...composing for film and tv is one of the things I intend to get into at some point, and synth driven music is all over the place in those mediums. I guess I'm looking at this from more of a "what will I gain" point of view than a "what will I not use". $999 seems like a good price to gain all of the things I mentioned in my previous reply (I've even seen it for as low as $899.), but only if the instruments that appeal to me are actually any good. I understand that this may not be the one-package answer...I doubt any product is...but will it provide enough depth to cover, say, 70% of my production needs, with me perhaps purchasing a handful of other, more specialized VIs to cover the rest? Right now, I'm stuck clicking through patches in Xpand 2, and that just isn't cutting it for me...that truly is the 10% scenario you mentioned.

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by Stepping_Stone

I guess the crux of my question is, discounting the instruments that I obviously wouldn't be using, do the ones that I have named seem to blend well into the genres I listed without sounding canned or out of place? And is there enough under the hood of these instruments (SSP, GuitarRig Pro, Kontakt) that they will be flexible enough to cover a pretty wide range of musical contexts, or are these one trick ponies?

Session Strings pro, Kontakt, Scarbee keyboards, (Scarbee basses are very good too) vintage Organs, Guitar Rig Pro, and Alicia Keys..plus the other generally LAME pianos...yes I think they can all work well with country, rock and pop. You have pretty much listed the popular and desirable NI products...less all the fantastic synths.

It does depend on how specific you want things to be. For example Battery is good bread and butter drums. But..something like EZ Drummer with the Nashville EZX expansion pack is going provide a sound, and midi grooves that are much closer to a Nashville drummer than anything NI can provide.

Going in with the attitude that you will use a minority of K8u and you are okay with the price..I would say yes.

[Myrok Rolles]

good for turning pop, rock, and country into :

House
Drum n Bass
Dubstep
DrumStep
Rave muSIC!!!

not good at:

country
rock

[Persemone]

Originally Posted by aunshui

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that this reply wasn't aimed straight at me, because that would be the kind of "jumping to conclusions" rarely seen outside of the Olympics, but since it's no longer 3am, I'll take a few minutes to go ahead and clarify my earlier remark.

Stop being paranoid. Nothing at all to do with you, merely a design observation of this forum as a whole.

Anyway, back to the OP - if you'd buy Kontakt and a single library, then Komplete seems the better buy. Discard the rest, if you prefer - although there are some gems to be found, such as Guitar Rig's Transient Master and the compressors, and even within Reaktor there are several well regarded effects.

Sampletank is long in the tooth and sonically no match for Kontakt. There is, however, a new version 3 in the wings but not yet announced; maybe NAMM 2012.

[Macsearcher]

I am curious about which DAW you are using.
The samples that come with the Logic EXs24 are hard to beat. They definitely beat the pants off of the Kontakt samples.
I definitely agree that the Kontakt samples are, in several cases, of demo quality.
Quite a lot of them are excellent.
The scarbee stuff is nice.
The biggest advantage with a library like Ultimate, is having an easily searchable and customizable database.
The ability to, very quickly, pull up most sounds that you can think of, is indispensable for production and more specifically, pre-production.
I want to hear an oboe layered with a flute and an organ an octave below....search, load, done, fast.
I would agree that Ultimate is probably overkill in most cases but the fact that you are interested in the session strings ( a great sounding library ) and the fact that you gain access to all of the full selection of Abbey Road Drums may be worth the cost. The Alicia Keyes piano has become a go to in a lot of R'n'B production. Personally, I think that it sounds about as flat and lifeless as the artist that endorses it, but that's for another thread. Hee

If you are looking for some excellent samples, might I humbly suggest the following;

Bass- Trillian ( the upright sounds are disturbingly convincing if care is taken with programming )
Strings - LASS is pretty hard to beat.
Classic keys - logic exs24.
Piano - there's a lot to choose from. Ivory is great. EastWest is spectacular.
Drums - Abbey Road drums are fantastic. Addictive Drums is indispensable. Steven Slate Trigger, Platinum Edition, is a great drum replacement tool and comes with a really good sounding sample library that is quite useable for country production.
Guitar/banjo/pedal steel - don't even think about it!
Good luck.
Macsearcher.

[EvilDragon]

There's a great pedal steel library for Kontakt: check out Wavelore Pedal Steel Guitar!

[Clonkified]

I mainly work on music with a hybrid of organic and electronic sounds as well, and I would suggest you pick and choose instead (and even look outside of what Native Instruments offers). For example, I really like Alicia's Keys, Session Strings Pro, and Guitar Rig from NI, but I use Pianoteq for other piano sounds and electric pianos. For synths, FM8 and Massive from NI are great, but so is Omnisphere, Zebra / DIVA, Sylenth, etc. (and what those can do aren't covered by NI's offerings). I have VSL SE to augment my strings, and for brass, I am using Fable Sounds' Broadway Lites. I think a blend of what is out there satisfies my needs much better than buying K8.

[aunshui]

Originally Posted by Clonkified

I think a blend of what is out there satisfies my needs much better than buying K8.

Back from the dead, eh?

This was really my point; it's not that hard drive space is expensive, it's that having too many options is expensive - not just in terms of money, but in terms of the time you'll waste figuring out/playing with everything instead of writing music with tools that you know you like. Nothing wrong with Komplete, it's a great package, just don't be surprised if you move on to something else eventually

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm gonna go back to watching Persemone generalize the entire forum in vast, sweeping statements with little foundation in truth or reality