Problems EQ`ing Bass

[blue monk]

EDIT: Could somebody of you listen to the attached sound demo with studio monitors or proper headphones, because I find the difference of B 02 (original Tube Tech) and B 03 (Softube emulation) irritating. Did the person who made the demo mess up the settings on the Softube plug-in or can`t it do better?


I`m wondering what would be better for me, the SPL Passeq plug-in or both Softube Tube-Tech EQs.

I am producing House and Techno. I like the demos of the real Tube-Tech Pulteq-replica on a drumloop. I have heard a comparison with the Softube plug-in version on the same drumloop. Result for me on that particular example: Tube-Tech original great, Softube very bad.
See attached WAV files. The drumloop sounds destroyed in the B 03 example.
I don`t know if maybe the guy who reviewed it didn`t get the parameters right on the Softube emulation. Maybe.

I liked what the software emulation did in Softube`s official demo video although it`s not used on bass a lot.
Lately I have problems with getting the bass right on a track that`s in the works.

I am a little bit concerned about flexibility of the Tube-Tech emulation because what if the tune of the bassdrum or bass require that I work on a different frequency?

The alternative I have is negative EQing with the standard EQs of the DAW that I`m using (I might be switching to Ableton Live 9, whenever that is released, Logic 10 or Reaper - so I don`t know which DAW EQs I`ll have to use in the foreseeable future).

[sftd]

The demo you post with the Portico EQ sound for best

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[Lowas]

If you have the time check out PSP's eqs too.
They aren't just the same eq with different gui's, they do sound and behave differently.
Try add some bottomend with ConsoleQ and some "crispyness" with ClassicQ and adjust "balance" with McQ for instance(just off the top of my head).

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by sftd

The demo you post with the Portico EQ sound for best

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There is not Portico EQ in the demos, but thanks

[Beany]

They're quite different beasts, the SPL is a precision mastering EQ and the Softube Tube-Tech EQs are quite 'broad-brush' EQs. I haven't tried the SPL but I use (and love) all of the Softube EQs, even the Abbey Road Brilliance Pack (which Softube developed). They each have a character that works best on different material, but they're more 'musical' rather than precision EQs. Actually, the Tube-Tech EQs are probably the cleanest sounding ones of the bunch.

If you really want a 'Pultec-style' EQ then PSPs NobleQ is actually quite good, and not restricted to set frequencies like the Tube-Tech emus (you can select frequencies between the ones marked on the dial). Pushing up the highs with Valve-Mode engaged means they saturate rather than become harsh-sounding.

For House & Techno the Softube Focussing EQ in Passive mode is fantastic on bass and kicks. Active mode is a little bit harsh, but sounds great on drum-machine snares & hats. Hmmm, I haven't tried it on a synth lead yet... The Softube Mix Pack is a great little package for dance music, the FET is great on the drum bus and also for getting that lead synth right 'in-your-face' and the included cut-down TSAR reverb is quite lush & 3D.

I now use Waves Hybrid-EQ as my final mixing precision EQ (mainly because it has a visual display and you can select frequencies by note) but it is capable of producing some nice character too, although it's a bit of a CPU hog. I was previously using the DDMF EQs, mainly for cutting, but you can happily boost with them too.

IMHO the Waves Hybrid-EQ, the Softube Active/Passive Pack and the PSP NobleQ cover a lot of EQ basses. But I do use the Softube Tube-Tech EQs at the mastering stage for 'broad-brush' sweetening (although I don't claim to be a ME, it's only on my own tracks).

Jeez, I'm rambling on a bit. I guess I should have asked if you specifically wanted a mastering EQ first! Anyway, I've noticed that you have recently got an iLok so I highly recommend that you at least demo the Hybrid EQ and Softube Mix Pack

[Beany]

Originally Posted by blue monk

There is not Portico EQ in the demos, but thanks

Lol! DDMF also do the 6144, a Portico inspired EQ. Unfortunately I don't have a real one to compare it against

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by Beany

They're quite different beasts, the SPL is a precision mastering EQ and the Softube Tube-Tech EQs are quite 'broad-brush' EQs. I haven't tried the SPL but I use (and love) all of the Softube EQs, even the Abbey Road Brilliance Pack (which Softube developed). They each have a character that works best on different material, but they're more 'musical' rather than precision EQs. Actually, the Tube-Tech EQs are probably the cleanest sounding ones of the bunch.

If you really want a 'Pultec-style' EQ then PSPs NobleQ is actually quite good, and not restricted to set frequencies like the Tube-Tech emus (you can select frequencies between the ones marked on the dial). Pushing up the highs with Valve-Mode engaged means they saturate rather than become harsh-sounding.

For House & Techno the Softube Focussing EQ in Passive mode is fantastic on bass and kicks. Active mode is a little bit harsh, but sounds great on drum-machine snares & hats. Hmmm, I haven't tried it on a synth lead yet... The Softube Mix Pack is a great little package for dance music, the FET is great on the drum bus and also for getting that lead synth right 'in-your-face' and the included cut-down TSAR reverb is quite lush & 3D.

I now use Waves Hybrid-EQ as my final mixing precision EQ (mainly because it has a visual display and you can select frequencies by note) but it is capable of producing some nice character too, although it's a bit of a CPU hog. I was previously using the DDMF EQs, mainly for cutting, but you can happily boost with them too.

IMHO the Waves Hybrid-EQ, the Softube Active/Passive Pack and the PSP NobleQ cover a lot of EQ basses. But I do use the Softube Tube-Tech EQs at the mastering stage for 'broad-brush' sweetening (although I don't claim to be a ME, it's only on my own tracks).

Jeez, I'm rambling on a bit. I guess I should have asked if you specifically wanted a mastering EQ first! Anyway, I've noticed that you have recently got an iLok so I highly recommend that you at least demo the Hybrid EQ and Softube Mix Pack

Actually I couldn`t decide which Softube`s to buy so I ordered Mix-Pack, both Tube-Techs and the FET Comp for payment in advance. I want to decide this weekend which I will get and which I won`t.
Mix Pack alone is already a lot of money for me but some of the demo`s sounds and what I read from sources I trust really got me thinking about FET Comp + both Softube Tube-Tech EQs. Although Mix-Pack + both Softube Tube-Techs would be just 40€ more, that is a big number for me since I also have to buy a lot of other stuff, both music related and non-music related while bein chronically underfunded

I am not looking for a mastering EQ. I figured that doing anything with the Passeq could take more time than with the Softube Tube-Techs let alone the Focusing EQ.

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by Beany

Lol! DDMF also do the 6144, a Portico inspired EQ. Unfortunately I don't have a real one to compare it against

Are DDMF those where the buyer can choose to pay any price he/she wants?

[blue monk]

The reason for me to be immediately interested in the Tube Techs was that particular pushing bass that I had heard in many productions that I liked and that my work-in-progress tracks always lacked.
I must admit that so far my lack of discipline and work attitude kept me from learning more about mixing to this date. So I can`t say I got everything out of the EQs that I had at my disposal and that that simply wasn`t good enough.
However, if I don`t get the Softube Tube-Techs now for that price, I won`t be able to afford them if I find out later that they are the ones for me.

I don`t know. Maybe it`s not so complicated finding out when I make time this weekend to install the demo and twiddle the knobs with that bass that had been giving me a headache lately.

[blue monk]

Oh and one more thing: I totally don`t dig those pseudo-rocking electro house bass sounds... Sounds to me like someone tries to immitate a rock guitar with his 1985 Casio. Hopeless!

[Stiff]

The Softube Tube-Tech PE1C is my favorite workhorse plugin EQ, period. I use it all over the place. In fact, it's my default EQ in Pro Tools. No, it's not versatile or surgical - for that you'll need something else - but when you just need to boost some highs or lows it's just awesome. Just make things sound better.

However...

Originally Posted by blue monk

I must admit that so far my lack of discipline and work attitude kept me from learning more about mixing to this date.

If you're new to mixing just spend some time with the tools you have. Experience trumps gear. If you still want to try it download the demo and see if it makes a difference to you.

Good luck.

[Beany]

Hi again Bluemonk, I just want to say that after this thread I tried mixing a track using JUST the Softube Tube-Tech EQs and Fuuu...k!

I seriously underestimated these EQs as they weren't as colourful as the others and quite limited in their frequecies. But, dammit, it's just so easy to cut on one track and boost on another and still have everything gel in a pleasing way without overly obsessing about freqencies.

[Beany]

Originally Posted by blue monk

Are DDMF those where the buyer can choose to pay any price he/she wants?

DDMF used to be 'Pay-What-You-Want' a couple of years ago, but now it's $29 for a single plug, $59 for a bundle & $119 for everything. Whilst I think of it, have you seen the Variety of Sound website? There's a selection of high-quality EQs, compressors, reverb, tape sims etc there for free.

[Beany]

VST Effects

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by Stiff

If you're new to mixing just spend some time with the tools you have. Experience trumps gear. If you still want to try it download the demo and see if it makes a difference to you.

As you may have concluded from the fact I mentioned discipline, I agree that that the skill and willingness to become more skilled by work that the user brings to the table (or lack thereof) is more important than the tools.

Would you think that if for instance bass and bassdrum need more bass, I boost with the Softube Tube Tech Pultec emulation and afterwards reduce conflicting bass frequencies of those 2 channels with a more flexible EQ with narrow Q? So I get the sound first and then use the next EQ only for negative EQing, thus avoiding as much prominent phase distortion as possible. Would that make sense?

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by Beany

DDMF used to be 'Pay-What-You-Want' a couple of years ago, but now it's $29 for a single plug, $59 for a bundle & $119 for everything. Whilst I think of it, have you seen the Variety of Sound website? There's a selection of high-quality EQs, compressors, reverb, tape sims etc there for free.

I don`t use Windows for audio anymore so the Variety of Sounds won`t work. It`s also not like I don`t have any EQs at all. But it`s those that come free with a DAW and while Logic`s EQ don`t have a bad reputation, I was not able to get the job done with those, yet. It just didn`t sound great to me. There is well-produced music made just with FL Studio but for me, with Logic, it did not work, yet.

I think a big pro argument for me is that if I get the Mix-Pack and the Softube Tube-Techs, then I can`t possibly say to myself I don`t achieve the goal because those digital EQs stink.
And I cannot justify not working on my music when I just spent 7 months of savings.
I am a bit trying to put myself into the failure is not an option position if you will.
I have started maybe 500 tracks in since I began making music and didn`t finish and deleted most of them. Now I have about 2 tracks that I feel have the potential to have a real impact in the genre I am in - IF I don`t mess it up that is!
...and now I am intimidated and stopped working on those. That has been going on for a few months and I have been exposing myself to psychology related to setting goals, making plans to get there and succeeding instead of procrastinating.
I`m trying to push myself into the direction of making it happen. And thinking about it it might actually work because I find not living up to my potential is a sin against the universe (I am saying that ironically but I do think it`s true and not just for me but for everybody). Likewise having the Softube stuff here and putting mediocre music through it or not using them at all would also be a sin - kind of, wouldn`t it?

The other thing is that I have analog synths and I want to make the best out of their sound. The video demo on Softube`s site sounded really good to my ears despite the fact that youtube even at 720p is not the same as wav obviously. But it was enought to get my attention. In other words: It sounds to me like what I could not do with my mixes.

[blue monk]

I tried Softube`s Tube-Tech, Focusing and Passive-EQ aswell as SPL Passeq on synth bass.
Although being kind of shaky on my feet trying to EQ sounds, I had the impression that I get the closest to the destination with the Softube Tube-Tech emulation. I can get meaty bass yet get a roll-off of the frequencies below 40Hz. I had to add Logic EQ with low shelving to reduce low frequencies more. To me it always sounded "less good" anytime I activated Logic`s channel EQ. I tried also very small amounts of reduction. Ultimately I had to keep it activated to eliminate sub bass.

With the Tube-Tech emulation I was able to emphasize growling parts of the sound that I could not with Logic`s Channel EQ or the Softube Passive EQ.

I did not spend much time with SPL`s Passeq when I noticed that here too I have to switch between pre-selected frequencies.

[sftd]

Which matters more to the taste of a slice of cake;

1. The cake itself.

Or

2. The knife used to cut the cake.

You're directing way too much thought in the wrong place.

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[blue monk]

Originally Posted by sftd

Which matters more to the taste of a slice of cake;

1. The cake itself.

Or

2. The knife used to cut the cake.

You're directing way too much thought in the wrong place.

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Probably. I don`t have the experience, yet, so I have to turn knobs and see what I can do.
I would be grateful for any tips that lead to a better result, more quickly with more simple tools.

The first thing I tried was taking a look at the synth`s effects section if there was anything that was making trouble and then the filter and the envelopes.
Next simple volume. Then I tried different sounds and next finding any problematic frequencies with Logic`s Channel EQ. Just one band for the start, low width, high boost and scanning through the mids, low mids and bass to find bad freqs (with the plan to reduce those afterwards).
This wasn´t very successful.

[sftd]

How many elements are playing in the scenario you described above?

What were these elements?

There are no problem frequencies until they become problems when interacting with the frequencies of the elements around them.

Back to the cake, if there's a slice of cake and you're the only one that is there, there's no reason to cut it.

You only need to cut it when you have friends over and they want some of the cake too.

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[Beany]

Originally Posted by sftd

Back to the cake, if there's a slice of cake and you're the only one that is there, there's no reason to cut it.

Lol! Good analogy!

I just listened to tracks 2 & 3 again and I thought the Tube-Tech EQs were more rounded on the kick whilst the Softube one was clipping - it's quite a dirty old sample to be judging an EQ on. So I downloaded them and looked at the wave forms and they are both clipping on the kick, but the Softube one is actually pushing the bass of the kick more into the ceiling which is, paradoxically, making it sound crunchier.

Bear in mind that all hardware EQs will be slightly different & the guys Tube Techs were not the ones that Softube modelled, he just copied the settings. Overall I think the Softube ones compare quite well.

[Beany]

Originally Posted by blue monk

The first thing I tried was taking a look at the synth`s effects section if there was anything that was making trouble and then the filter and the envelopes.
Next simple volume. Then I tried different sounds and next finding any problematic frequencies with Logic`s Channel EQ. Just one band for the start, low width, high boost and scanning through the mids, low mids and bass to find bad freqs (with the plan to reduce those afterwards).
This wasn´t very successful.

That's good practice, but if your using synths, softsynths, sampled drums etc. often there won't be too many offending frequencies, or at least a lot less than, say, a rock band.

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by sftd

How many elements are playing in the scenario you described above?

What were these elements?

There are no problem frequencies until they become problems when interacting with the frequencies of the elements around them.

Back to the cake, if there's a slice of cake and you're the only one that is there, there's no reason to cut it.

You only need to cut it when you have friends over and they want some of the cake too.

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I have to smile because even on its own the bass is just totally wrong without any processing or adjustments. First of all the loudness of the bass changes a lot when the notes change. I don`t turn the volume up too loud and at low volumes the problem is unchanged (pretty much rules out room problems I suppose). Calls for a compressor? The speakers are Adam P11a with no sub. That results in a limited spectrum due to size - but it is what I have and good records have been produced with these.
I described it in a thread I had posted a while back.
I can`t find the posting. I had sound samples in there.

I intend to do the bass all over again with a different synth but for now it`s a good object to try EQing on.

With the settings on the screenshots it sounds better than before but not entirely satisfying plus there is no room for a bassdrum. I want to separate everything even more, each note on a seperate channel (instead of octaved notes on the same channel) and the bass notes on 1 on another seperate channel to kill bass frequencies there to make room for the BD.

[blue monk]

Originally Posted by Beany

Lol! Good analogy!

I just listened to tracks 2 & 3 again and I thought the Tube-Tech EQs were more rounded on the kick whilst the Softube one was clipping - it's quite a dirty old sample to be judging an EQ on. So I downloaded them and looked at the wave forms and they are both clipping on the kick, but the Softube one is actually pushing the bass of the kick more into the ceiling which is, paradoxically, making it sound crunchier.

Bear in mind that all hardware EQs will be slightly different & the guys Tube Techs were not the ones that Softube modelled, he just copied the settings. Overall I think the Softube ones compare quite well.

I had the same impression: Softube Tube-Tech sounds distorted/overdirven at those settings. Not good at all but could sound better with more carefully set values.

[Beany]

Originally Posted by blue monk

First of all the loudness of the bass changes a lot when the notes change. I don`t turn the volume up too loud and at low volumes the problem is unchanged (pretty much rules out room problems I suppose). Calls for a compressor?

Yes definitely to get the levels more consistent.

plus there is no room for a bassdrum

Here's where you either EQ the bass & kick to fit OR sidechaining the bass to the kick so it ducks in volume when the kick plays. It's best to decide if you want a subby bass or a subby kick first which will then dictate which octave the bass should be in.

Also, check the tails of the kick aren't going into the start of the bassline.

[sftd]

If you don't have a bassdrum playing how do you know it won't work?

This is not in any way shape or form a good way to learn how to use EQ to shape a mix. Because there is no mix, there is only a single element.

All the problems you are describing currently are issues with the source instrument and its programming. Not any kind of processing.

You don't need to compress or do anything other than find the problem in the source for the moment.

What notes are playing? What are your ADSR values? What kind of modulation is happening in the patch?

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[blue monk]

Originally Posted by sftd

If you don't have a bassdrum playing how do you know it won't work?

I had all basic parts of the song playing: Main melody, drums and bass.
Depending on the note it sounds like the power of the bass suddenly drops massively. So I tried first all settings of the synth patch I could think of.
I tried different sound patches - none works for the bass line and rhythm.
The rhythm of the bass line is at the core of the track. Once I mute notes it falls apart. One more way to try this approach would be replacing some notes of the bass with drum sounds or percussive effect sounds...just so a muted event is replaced with something else.

Playing without any other tracks, the bass alone has these problems. It should not only be subjectively at the same volume but also have the same amount of push or punch or whatever in the bass area.

Originally Posted by sftd

This is not in any way shape or form a good way to learn how to use EQ to shape a mix. Because there is no mix, there is only a single element.

All the problems you are describing currently are issues with the source instrument and its programming. Not any kind of processing.

You don't need to compress or do anything other than find the problem in the source for the moment.

What notes are playing? What are your ADSR values? What kind of modulation is happening in the patch?

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I`ve looked into those but I will look again. I have started to learn understanding and programming sounds but my knowledge is on a highly advanced level, yet.
I will take a look particularly at the resonance frequency again. I think I did that (99%) but it doesn`t hurt to make sure I really tried this.
I figure resonance can really boost a particular frequency and maybe that way sound good on one note and very different on another. Also cutoff? Well, cutoff defines where the resonance happens, doesn`t it.
I could set the resonance to 0 (which would probably ruin the sound) or set different resonance and cutoff for the separated bass notes (all on separate tracks).

And I can take another synth and try to create a new bass patch that works.
Hope I have time for that tomorrow and also to post audio here.

Thanks for the hints so far.

[sftd]

The actual notes being played can greatly affect the consistency of a synthesizer patch's output.

In a more traditional example such as a piano, while this is still taking place it is a far cry from the pronounced effect it can have on particular types of synth patches.

ESPECIALLY if they involve a lot of low/sub frequency content.

Try the same melody but with a higher register "lead" sound, does it react in the same way concerning the loss of power on particular notes?

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[blue monk]

Originally Posted by sftd

The actual notes being played can greatly affect the consistency of a synthesizer patch's output.

In a more traditional example such as a piano, while this is still taking place it is a far cry from the pronounced effect it can have on particular types of synth patches.

ESPECIALLY if they involve a lot of low/sub frequency content.

Try the same melody but with a higher register "lead" sound, does it react in the same way concerning the loss of power on particular notes?

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That is a good point. I think I tried transposing the whole thing (melody + bass) and was not content but as I am not sure, I will make a checklist now and try one after another systematically so I know what I did and what I only thought of. Today again no time left.

[blue monk]

I have prepared 2 audio files of the bass before EQing with the Softube Tube-Tech PE 1C and after.
The notes playing are H1 and H2, C#1 and C#2, D1 and D2, G1 and G2.

I did not use the bass line of my original track but simplified it. This also seems to work better for me when I try to compare the tracks for EQing. Differences tend to stand out more.
Each audio demo includes 3 very simple patterns showing what the notes sound in comparison with note lengths of 1/16th and 3/4th and last the base note and one octave up alternating.

Without EQing H1 and H2 sound right and everything does not.
To me it sounds like the amp release for all notes but H is shorter or like the actual midi notes in the patterns would be shorter. They are not. The notes have the same length in the transposed patterns (= same patter but on another key, note lengths are the same in all keys). I also don`t see any modulation of the decay or release in the synth patch`s amp envelope depending on the key. I also can`t imagine why anybody would program such a modulation. I did check the filter`s keytracking (set at 0.5 I think) and changed that to see if that makes a big difference. Result: I does of course change the sound but I don`t see that this is the solution.

Also took a look at the synth patch but did not check everything, yet. I know I need to do that. For now I post these 2 audio files.