Nord Keyboards - Is It Just Me Or .....?

[Infa]

Originally Posted by shadowfac

Keep in mind that something like a Nord Electro 3 has 256 Mb of sample memory for all its sounds, while most of the latest plugins use multiple gigabytes for each instrument. Therefore, the Nord must rely more on modeling and effects to obtain the desired sound.

Clearly, your assumption that the Nord must sound better because it's hardware is ill founded.

LOL, yea you are right, and this thread had taught me that. I did not know the 2 different platforms/protocols could yield such different results.

Originally Posted by shadowfac

Also, I have to say that you're quite biased. Most people don't have as much experience with the real deal as you do, which is why the Nords do the job in most cases.

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

But granted, an original D6 Clav or a good Rhodes beats it every time ..

But keep in mind, I was not expecting this Nord to sound like or even be equal any of the "real things". I was though expecting it to fall between the real things and Plug Ins. So I purposely dropped my expectations to something I thought was realistic. (So I thought) --

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

Thanks for taking the time to outline your position properly .. vary rare around here, where most people just blast into a premise and expect you to read their mind or understand what they're hearing ..

Your very welcome ray_subsonic. I actually must thank you for taking the time to read such a long post. lol --

[Infa]

Originally Posted by teamsterjim

OP needs to see some Solaris demos from this year.
It has many great digital flavors, Sample Oscillators, and it's analog emulations are incredibly accurate.
Here's just a few little quickies I threw together

Thanks for the suggestion and for the link teamsterjim. Do you happen to have any Pianos, Rhodes, Wurli or Clav examples from this Solaris that I could hear ?

Originally Posted by bloodsample

Again I think this comes down to it being a gigging board primarily. Nobody wants to wait 10 minutes for a 40GB sample library to load on stage.

But bring a laptop w/all your plugs and a 88 weighted keyed midi controller to a gig, and that loads up quick ! Very quick (once the computer is started). I say about 15 seconds. And ultimately during sound check you could get everything booted up in a session, open all the plugs you need each on a separate track, then it is all instantly there. No wait at all. And it will sound better.

Originally Posted by bloodsample

If it's just for a quick power up to get ideas down then check out the Kronos. I've never played one myself but I heard really good things about their pianos and rhodes. Less expensive than the nord stages too I believe.

Thanks for this suggestion, I have heard of them myself, but never looked into them. I'll check em out.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by Mad Man Micron

I owned a Nord Stage for a while and even though I have plenty of experience playing the original vintage instruments, I wasn't bothered whether the Nord sounded like them or not ...but I did expect it to sound "good" in it's own way and to me it just didn't.

EXACTLY ! Exactly to a point. My issue exactly.

Originally Posted by Mad Man Micron

I'm going to check out the Hammond SK-1 to replace my Nord.

I haven't heard of this one. I'll look into it as well. I'm writing all your guys' suggestions down, and believe me, they are well appreciated.

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Nord pianos and Rhodes are sampled not physical modelled.

So here's the example of the debate on whether the Nord is Sample Based or Physically Modeled. Does anyone have a for sure proven answer to this ?

Originally Posted by goldphinga

to me they are the closest to the real thing in the studio and live. Couldn't be happier with my stage 2

Have you ever tried Vienna Instruments Plug Ins ? And honestly, I'm embarrassed to say this, but I have to cause its true... the Rhodes keys and Clav in Native Complete is very impressive. Better than the Nord anyway.

[Yoozer]

There is no debate. Nord Pianos are sampled. You can download new sets of samples on the Clavia site.

Pianoteq - a plugin - is modeled. A patch is merely a collection of settings, not audio data. The plugin is a mere 8 megabytes or so.

Model vs sample becomes incredibly obvious when comparing file sizes.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

There's no reason for that to be true. Often the interface alone - the fact that you can't be fooled that you're playing something physical - can warp your perceptions.



Because unlike workstations that try to cram several megabytes of jack-of-all-trades samples in memory you get room dedicated to a few instruments only. That means that the samples have more room for nuance than anything else.

They were first to offer something light-weight with a good interface. Doesn't matter if a workstation is not that more expensive; it's bigger and won't have the drawbars, just 4 generi-knobs. A dedicated clonewheel will not have the EPs and pianos. Interface matters and you can coast quite some time on being the first to do something right.

Thanks for taking the time for such a well informed post/response Yoozer. I agree and can see the points you made above. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by Yoozer

I've personally thought that Nord gets it right with dry sounds.

All other Rhodes sounds on various stage pianos and workstations sound like "album" Rhodes sounds - already processed, smoothed, and wet with FX from phaser to chorus. It's like the reference for the sound designers was not an actual MK1 but the particular sound of Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder - after it went through a bunch of stompboxes.

Aint that the truth ! ? ! Ha... Yea the first thing I did when I sat down at that Nord was turn all the effects off. Its real important to start at a stripped down base sound so you know what your really working with. Then from there add effects as you feel cater to the particular sound your going for.

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Go play a Roland V-Piano.

If you're not happy with the EPs, give the Yamaha CP-1 or CP-5 a whirl. It combines sampling with physical modeling. Also, try the EPs on the Korg Kronos.

Thanks for the suggestions, adding them to my "check out list"

[Infa]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

There is no debate. Nord Pianos are sampled. You can download new sets of samples on the Clavia site.

Pianoteq - a plugin - is modeled. A patch is merely a collection of settings, not audio data. The plugin is a mere 8 megabytes or so.

Model vs sample becomes incredibly obvious when comparing file sizes.

Got'cha, thanks for the clarification. Yea that makes sense (dumb me) - I knew they had their Piano Library to download online.. lol. Just never hit me to make the correlation.

Jesus, if they are sampled, then damn, they need to hire a new sampling crew and quality assurance crew. And the biggest thing is to not be afraid of how big the total files sizes will be. With flash drives, ram, etc.. becoming so big so quick and cheap, whats the big deal ? Pretty soon 2 Terabytes of instant access no load time no wait will be the norm.

For me personally, to get quality, I also would mind some short load/access times on the Nord. Or at least have it be a option.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by golden beers

dare i say it? try the roland jupiter80

Actually I tried it. Not for this threads reason (Piano, Rhodes, Wurli, Clav, Organ), but because being a Jupiter 8 owner, and a extreme nut vintage synth collector I ran down to try the new one the moment it was released. For this one, I was simply coming from a "Synth" point of view.

Long story short, I was completely unimpressed. Nothing in there sounded great, and the so called "super-natural" stuff sounded "eh" at best. The synth sounds and synthesis was decent, but just didn't have that umph I thought it would. The filters seemed too "accurate" to me. All tech, no life. So I passed and will not be looking back. I wish Roland could spend the time and money to properly recreate the Jupiter 8, and even make it better (as the Jupiter 8 was even kinda "Brassy" to me compared to my other vintage synths), but it seems Roland pulled exactly what everyone else pulls... they were worried about how much they could charge for it and etc... hence the product reflects.

Originally Posted by bloodsample

The nords were designed for the gigging/traveling musician. Sure a real rhodes, real wurly, real B3, real D7, real grand, real mellotron, etc, sound better than the individual patches on the nords, but you'd need a couple of trucks and a team of roadies to lug that around, not to mention maintenance and tuning. Not everyone has that luxury.

Yea, but you don't need no one to help you carry in your Laptop and midi controller. And boom ! Your set up and with absolutely stunning sound quality. Well, next level down from the real thing should I say.

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Well, synths have the advantage that they don't have a resonant body. There's a voltage coming out of 'm. They don't make sounds by themselves.

With a piano, you're dealing with the fact that a set of speakers has a fundamentally different response to a sounding board - it moves the air in a different way. By the time you're done faking every little detail you might as well build a standard acoustic; it's going to be cheaper.

But point is, is Plug Ins have done them good enough and remained relatively cheap. Seems like someone could bridge the gap between the computer w plug ins and the keyboard/workstation... Thats what I though Nord was doing. Keep it simple. But with massive library sizes that can be almost instantly accessed (using multiple large flash drives inside, or ram or combination of the 2). Focusing on only Piano, Rhodes, Wurli, Clav and Organ. This would make it doable for absolutely unprecedented sound quality at a reasonable price for the board.

[bloodsample]

Originally Posted by Infa

Yea, but you don't need no one to help you carry in your Laptop and midi controller. And boom ! Your set up and with absolutely stunning sound quality. Well, next level down from the real thing should I say.

True, laptops and software will probably get you closer to a realistic sound. I haven't gigged in a while so I assume gigging with laptops is now much more stable than before. Personally I'd feel safer using a dedicated keyboard instead of a laptop + midi cables + audio interface + multiple power supplies + loading soft synths. Just my opinion, I know it works for lots of people including many pros.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by bloodsample

True, laptops and software will probably get you closer to a realistic sound. I haven't gigged in a while so I assume gigging with laptops is now much more stable than before. Personally I'd feel safer using a dedicated keyboard instead of a laptop + midi cables + audio interface + multiple power supplies + loading soft synths. Just my opinion, I know it works for lots of people including many pros.

Yea, your totally right. And I agree. I was just pointing out a funny realization this world and technology is getting to. And that realization should also make the design team at Nord (and every other keyboard maker) try harder if they wanna stay in the game over the next 10 years... IMO of course.

The weight of what you have to carry is nothing... similar to a Nord keyboard. But you get sounds that of a 20 roadie team carried everything on stage for you. The audio interface (if you want to use one, cause you don't have to these days) could just be rack mounted and brought in with the portable rack unit the band has to bring in anyway. And the loading can be done once right before your on and never need to be done for the whole set. And at that, that loading should only be 15 seconds or so.

Still, I couldn't agree with you more - I wouldn't want to do that either. What I would want is a keyboard that preforms and sounds like it should...or could, thats all.

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by Infa

But with massive library sizes that can be almost instantly accessed (using multiple large flash drives inside, or ram or combination of the 2). Focusing on only Piano, Rhodes, Wurli, Clav and Organ. This would make it doable for absolutely unprecedented sound quality at a reasonable price for the board.

Yeah - SSD changes the game, but it's only gotten cost effective recently. At the same time, sample libraries grow, because more nuances are included.

The problem is when you want to keep costs down. The cheapest way to do it is to just dump a compact computer in a case. Then you get an OASYS, Kronos, Neuron or OpenLabs machine. However, with an off-the-shelf motherboard and CPU you also get baggage you don't want, because it makes optimization harder. Use custom parts, and you can strip it down to what you need, but then it's harder to get big numbers for memory or hooking up with standardized equipment.

I think ARM's doing some nice stabs at that; it's compact and fast enough to be used as a kind of DSP while it still gives the luxury of connecting to standardized devices - but I imagine that in DSP-land advances have been made as well. It's just that ARM would probably be far more common because it's more generic.

So - perhaps you will eventually end up with some kind of tablet optimized for audio. Put it in the cradle of your favorite controller (88 weighted or 61 synth keys), hook it up, and go.

[badmark]

I just bought an old Hammond XM-1. I used to use a Nord electro 2 rack for live work and studio.

The Hammond module is just much better, both sound-wise and in programmability.

I thought the Nord electro electric pianos were ... ok.

But Nord modular stuff sounds good.

[Bullseye]

Very tired of this whole debate. Instruments such as the NORD STAGE have come a long way towards creating the sounds of large, expensive and heavy instruments which, of course, is good for gigs and limited space.

ALSO, mechanical instruments requires both allot of maintenance and great mics to record them properly. Depending on the music you are doing, this is a no brainer. That is to say, if you are playing solo piano real pianos tend to do better. If you are mixing it, the idea that a NORD piano is somehow hard to mix is utter nonsense. It is not the instrument. MAYBE its what you are playing that's "hard" to mix.

I AM REALLY REALLY TIRED OF PEOPLE BLAMING THE INSTRUMENT FOR THEIR LACK OF PLAYING SKILL. And please don't tell me about your classical background etc. There is no direct logical inference that simply because you were properly "trained" you are capable of creating great music. If that were so....well anyway, pardon my rant but give it a rest. Don't like it, don't buy it or make something better. Man oh man, what people won't say to create an image of themselves....

Caveat - this, like everything else here, is pretty much subjective opinion because objectively, a NORD for instance, is not a real piano.....(thus some difference should be expected - and expecting more?? LIKE WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

[Ksp]

surely if you want the rhodes sound you need one , same goes for any synth or keys.I really dont get emulation , the best i heard was the creamware hardware of the arp etc but really but emulation always to my ears sounds really lame alongside the real thing .I think emulations like a private joke in the industry or something.

Clavia is cool for its Nord lead 1/ 2 and G1/g2 etc.

I think by the lead 2x and 3 and then the wave etc they had lost the plot with super clean da and dsp code that was really bland.Thats what my ears heard , i went to buy the nord wave and was just horrified at the sound having used a nord lead 1 for years.

[Thomas Johansen]

Check out Muse Receptor:

Muse Research | Software Sampler, Plugin Host, VST Plugins & Instruments, Sound Module


---

Thomas Johansen Record Producer
Welcome to American Studios

[zahush76]

To answer the op's question: yes. It is just you.

[soultrane]

i own a very very nice rhodes, and have also owned a b3, and a clavinet d6...

i went back and forth on what keyboard to get (kronos, motif, pc3x, etc)

but for my needs, i.e., a good kybd that's FUN to play, i like the new Nord electro... didn't like the keyboard though..

so, when i heard about the new version w. the hammer action keys, i went and grabbed it...

man it is a nice keyboard, fun action to play, about as good as any other electronic keyboard i've ever played.... and then, when i go to pick it up, it's like, casio weight! LIGHT as a feather...

so what more do you want? does the piano sound good? no... but does a kronos, a motif, or a fantom sound real either? NO...

as for the rhodes and hammond sounds.... well man, i am NOT lugging that rhodes to a gig again, EVER... it will stay right in the studio where it belongs!

EDIT;

just downloaded the "Grand Lady D" samples and installed them... that is actually a very, very nice piano sample... there are some others as well, (a bosendorfer, a yamaha grand etc) that i haven't tried yet... they are big samples and you have to remove your other stuff to fit them in, but yeah... that is a nice piano sound!

[L-feld]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

Well, synths have the advantage that they don't have a resonant body. There's a voltage coming out of 'm. They don't make sounds by themselves.

With a piano, you're dealing with the fact that a set of speakers has a fundamentally different response to a sounding board - it moves the air in a different way. By the time you're done faking every little detail you might as well build a standard acoustic; it's going to be cheaper.

LOL

You mean the Yamaha Avant-Grand N3? It even has little solenoids under the keys that vibrate. It's only ten grand and 500 pouds. It's got midi, though!

The sad thing is that there is that this is proof that Yamaha will totally cater to niche markets dominated by weirdos with too much money to blow, but they see more hope in this than building a new analog. I feel like such a loser.

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by zahush76

To answer the op's question: yes. It is just you.

Agreed, by the way....

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by L-feld

LOL

You mean the Yamaha Avant-Grand N3? It even has little solenoids under the keys that vibrate. It's only ten grand and 500 pouds. It's got midi, though!

The sad thing is that there is that this is proof that Yamaha will totally cater to niche markets dominated by weirdos with too much money to blow, but they see more hope in this than building a new analog. I feel like such a loser.

Still sounds digital but only to the extent that any "recorded" piano will sound...well....."recorded". But these keyboards sound pretty good and allow for some real dynamic performance. That is a absolutely great compared to what keyboard players struggled with in the electronic domain just a few years ago...

[AB3]

Any more stage 2 owners wish to chime in.

What other digital piano sounds better and is under 45 pounds?

I thought maybe the roland rd300nx but I hear bad things about the action on it.

[HomeProducer]

Funny debate,

I was recently visiting a concert where the guy had the Nord electro 3 and it sounded amazing. He was playing very well ...

[ionian]

I have a stage EX and it sounds phenomenal. I highly recommend it and I have yet to find a professional musician on a session or otherwise who wasn't blown away by it.

Regards,
Frank

[Rane-Ex54]

I dont own any of the stage or electro keyboards, but own a couple of there synths. Nord definitely has a different sound that's not for everyone, but there main strengths are User Interface, Build Construction, and Sound. I actually love the fact they don't drench there synths with 20+ effects per patch. Nord is known for having pretty horrible presets, dont ever judge it by that. Turn the knobs, create, explore, they are a blast IMO