Next Gen. ROLAND Workstation ? (When) ?

[Yoozer]

This trick worked pretty well for Motifs, too - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2010 - so let's see:

Fantom: 2002
Fantom S: 2003
Fantom X: 2004
Fantom G: 2008

There's a good chance that there'll be something new on the Messe in 2012, but that might just be a Jupiter 80 with a sequencer bolted on.

[Teknobeam]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

There's a good chance that there'll be something new on the Messe in 2012, but that might just be a Jupiter 80 with a sequencer bolted on.

That makes perfect sense

[Diametro]

if Roland is going to release a workstation version of Jupiter-80 sound engine they will wait until that synth's sales slow ... (Or there's going to be a lot of Jupiter-80 owners bitching about how there's a newer, "better" Jupiter available for about the same price ... ) Unless of course, sales ARE already cool ...

Otherwise, this new workstation is going to have to cost roughly $5,000 since it would need to be positioned above Jupiter-80 if it's going to be adding a bunch of functionality ... And a "real" workstation needs more than four parts so it may require much more DSP ...

Unless of course, the next Roland workstation is a severely cut-down version of Jupiter-80 sound engine ... (not really sure what they could take away that would actually save money ... )

Maybe the workstation is dead, though ... How and when Roland responds will do much to answer this question ...

But my guess is we won't be seeing a workstation version for quite some time ... (Something at NAMM 2012 would be a major surprise imo ... )

[asbak]

Originally Posted by Diametro

Unless of course, sales ARE already cool ...

judging by the amount of interests (hits) on youtube there appears to be a lot of public interest in the J80. Whether that translates into sales though... not sure.

[RANTARAVE]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

This trick worked pretty well for Motifs, too - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2010 - so let's see:

Fantom: 2002
Fantom S: 2003
Fantom X: 2004
Fantom G: 2008

There's a good chance that there'll be something new on the Messe in 2012, but that might just be a Jupiter 80 with a sequencer bolted on.

too bad kurzweils dont work that way

[RANTARAVE]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

This trick worked pretty well for Motifs, too - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2010 - so let's see:

Fantom: 2002
Fantom S: 2003
Fantom X: 2004
Fantom G: 2008

There's a good chance that there'll be something new on the Messe in 2012, but that might just be a Jupiter 80 with a sequencer bolted on.

Too bad kurzweils dont work this way

[Diametro]

No development funds for a dying market? Who doesn't want to see a new K-series successor ... ???

And when are we EVER going to hear something about it ... ???

[Yoozer]

Originally Posted by Diametro

some very good points

The alternative would be that making the JP80 has become cheaper (parts perhaps dropped in price) for whatever reason so they can drop the price of that. Sucks for the early adopters, though. $3K is around the sweet spot, more than that and you need a very good reason for the price increase (such as weighted keys).

It could also be that Roland simply asked a representative sample of Fantom owners whether they did a lot with the sequencer or if it was a not-so-useful extra (either because a DAW was used or because they didn't need it for live performances).

[WDM]

Originally Posted by Yoozer

This trick worked pretty well for Motifs, too - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2010 - so let's see:

Fantom: 2002
Fantom S: 2003
Fantom X: 2004
Fantom G: 2008

There's a good chance that there'll be something new on the Messe in 2012, but that might just be a Jupiter 80 with a sequencer bolted on.

I think that KORG's timeline is missing here...
Considering that Kronos just made it out of the door it's not likely that Roland already has something up their sleeves. Besides, Fantoms in their current state are packed nicely with the "workstation" features. The number of midi/audio tracks, memory, usb, sampling, etc... The screen size could be improved. I always liked Oasys screen, but may be it's better to have DVI output. Other than that I don't know...

Not sure that J80 needs internal sequencer. It has the "idea save" button already. That's good enough for the start. Instead, I'd love to see something like "tube" expansion board, (like Triton had), or some "real analog oscillator/filter" expansion or something like that. Right now J80 looks like "sealed" box. That's not in Roland's tradition at all.

[L8RDOOD]

This may sound like a bold statement BUT I own both & for me, that's all it is. Roland really screwed up with the naming of this synth! If they had to keep the Jupiter name, it should have been the "Jupiter S" (for supernatural). I do like the looks of it. It does need more controllers, a sequencer, vocoder & a bootable dedicated analog synth side(like the GT). I know it is not an analog synth(really should have been!!). Regardless, if you do not have a GT, it's a toss up to what to get. Maybe there will be some type of OS update down the road but who knows.....

[Shefu]

Why a workstation? There's already plenty workstations. I would love it if they released a V-Synth GT2 with all the good stuff, minus the bugs plus new bells & whistles.

[elwoodblues1969]

Originally Posted by Diametro

Otherwise, this new workstation is going to have to cost roughly $5,000

Unless of course, the next Roland workstation is a severely cut-down version of Jupiter-80 sound engine ... (n

Maybe the workstation is dead, though ...

But my guess is we won't be seeing a workstation version for quite some time ... (Something at NAMM 2012 would be a major surprise imo ... )

I agree that a Jupiter-80 as a workstation would be exceedingly expensive and in as much as I love the Jupiter-80 for what it is,I absolutely refuse to pay $3,500 for it-especially so,when one can get a Kronos 73-key for the same price.
I don't want to even ponder what Roland would charge for implementing the same amount of functionality as the Kronos.

In terms of workstations being dead,Roland's workstations certainly are,as they have always seriously downgraded the sound quality,whenever they add recording functions to their synths.
To make matters worse,Roland extorts the user into buying ARX cards,which is the largest act of extortion,that was ever committed by a musical instrument company.....so it's no wonder why the Jupiter-80 is so expensive.

[elwoodblues1969]

Originally Posted by WDM

Fantoms in their current state are packed nicely with the "workstation" features. The number of midi/audio tracks, memory, usb, sampling, etc...

Not sure that J80 needs internal sequencer.

Can you please define your idea of the Fantom's nicely packed workstation features?
What is so nice about a workstation that has a total of 128 tracks,when about 112 or so of those tracks are useless,since no workstation on earth has the memory or processing power to support that many tracks all at once?
It's a terrible waste of resource and seriously...only a half million dollar studio recording the Phil Harmonic Orchestra,would make use of that many tracks.

By the way...the Fantoms are notorious for their samplers having freezing issues-a feature of which,is not so nice either.

[elwoodblues1969]

Originally Posted by Shefu

Why a workstation? There's already plenty workstations. I would love it if they released a V-Synth GT2 with all the good stuff, minus the bugs plus new bells & whistles.

Why a workstation?Are you serious?Some people like to compose & record entire songs on their own,without the need for a computer.
Yeah...there's plenty of workstations out there...but how many of those workstations have all of the Jupiter 80 sounds?None...zero.

What if someone wanted to make a complete song with the Jupiter-80 sounds without a computer?They are sh*t out of luck,aren't they?

For whatever reason,Roland is incapable or unwilling to incorporate all of their flagship sounds into a workstation and offer it for a competitive price tag.

Personally,I think Roland's true motives for this,is due to corporate greed..I mean..think about it,their products are manufactured in Japan just like Korg & Yamaha and yet their prices sort of reflect a made-in-USA price tag.

Roland has always put lackluster sounds into their workstations and offered sounds card options to rob their customers blind,if they wanted high quality sounds.
$449 for a ARX electric piano card..WTF??Roland slit their own throats by using these extortion tactics and if they were to continue on this way,they probably would have become bankrupt.

[elwoodblues1969]

Originally Posted by L8RDOOD

This may sound like a bold statement BUT I own both & for me, that's all it is. Roland really screwed up with the naming of this synth! If they had to keep the Jupiter name, it should have been the "Jupiter S" (for supernatural). I do like the looks of it. It does need more controllers, a sequencer, vocoder & a bootable dedicated analog synth side(like the GT). I know it is not an analog synth(really should have been!!). Regardless, if you do not have a GT, it's a toss up to what to get. Maybe there will be some type of OS update down the road but who knows.....

The Roland Jupiter-80 is named as such,because it has samples from the original Jupiter series and obviously the retro styling...so I think the name is appropriate.
Yeah...I know...a lot of purists out there have a huge problem with VA synths,but the current technology has made the differences between analog and virtual analog indistinguishable..at least to my ears.
I think if a Jupiter 8 and a Jupiter-80 were arranged side by side and you were blind folded,I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference.

If there would be a difference,it would probably be so negligible that it wouldn't be an issue...not for me anyway.

I'm a big proponent for VA,as it sounds amazing to my ears & the price is right....I personally don't care for keyboards such as Dave Smith & the like...just too damn expensive & no real advantages in sound quality that I can distinguish.

[flat earth]

will you please turn off 'Bold'. You are wasting virtual ink don't you know

[Devnor]

Originally Posted by elwoodblues1969

I don't want to even ponder what Roland would charge for implementing the same amount of functionality as the Kronos.

Oh, sure they could. But let me ask you this...to meet your price point, how many trips to the service center are you willing to make? How do lockups and long reboot times figure into your workflow? How do you feel about leaving your $3500 board to languish in a service center somewhere for weeks while parts are backordered? For some of their users this crap has been going on 7-8 months. Walmart quality with this kind of price tag is just completely unacceptable to me.

New Fantom? I think it will be centered around a sampling engine with some elements of the Jupiter 80 namely the SN piano and synth. Probably nerfed a bit ...2 partials instead of 3, ect. Usual workstation features and a nice, readable LCD touch display. 88 note keyboard makes it's return. Probably $4000 street price. I'll pass.

[elwoodblues1969]

Originally Posted by Devnor

Oh, sure they could. But let me ask you this...to meet your price point, how many trips to the service center are you willing to make? How do lockups and long reboot times figure into your workflow? How do you feel about leaving your $3500 board to languish in a service center somewhere for weeks while parts are backordered? For some of their users this crap has been going on 7-8 months. Walmart quality with this kind of price tag is just completely unacceptable to me.

New Fantom? I think it will be centered around a sampling engine with some elements of the Jupiter 80 namely the SN piano and synth. Probably nerfed a bit ...2 partials instead of 3, ect. Usual workstation features and a nice, readable LCD touch display. 88 note keyboard makes it's return. Probably $4000 street price. I'll pass.

In case you haven't noticed,virtually everything made in Japan & China has it's share of tech issues(including Roland),so why would I over pay for a Roland product that has the similar problems?
No thank you,Roland.If I choose to buy a hardware workstation again,I'll choose Korg...I mean,if I'm going to tolerate tech issues,then at least I'll get more features & functionality for my money and better customer service,should something go wrong down the line.

My Korg M3 had ridiculously long boot up times & the Xpansion set crashed the OS,but that was due to insufficient memory..coupled with the fact that Korg never should have implemented an expansion set in the first place.

I've never even demo'd a Kronos in person,but I haven't read anything about any major OS issues or long boot up times & I can't imagine why a keyboard that's linux-based,with plenty of memory,would be a product that would continually end up at a service center.

I don't know about you,but for me personally,I'd much prefer to deal with technical glitches from a $3,500 73-key Kronos,rather than having similar problems with a $7500 76-key Oasys.
Any keyboard made in Japan that costs $7500 to $8500 better be able to suck & f*ck me,as well as make me coffee in the morning,for that price.

I will say this though,I'd rather spent a couple of years saving & scrimping some coin for a used Oasys,rather than ever buying any sh*t-box Roland workstation.

Actually,I think the Yamaha XF makes the most sense & is the best value out there(although their flash memory expansion cards are too pricey & I'd wait for the price to drop on those...if I ever decided to buy another hardware workstation).

Like I had mentioned a few times before,I love the Jupiter-80...but paying $3500 for what essentially is nothing more than a live instrument and a VA one at that,doesn't make any sense.

Roland insists on keeping their quality synths & workstations separate,which is why I will never buy a Roland product.
Roland really went to sh*t in the last 15 years...I mean...even their Super JX-10 had a sequencer in it.
I mean hell....I'd even settle for an 8 track midi sequencer in the Jupiter-80...just so I could lay down an idea that could easily be laid down & incorporated into a song in my DAW.

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by elwoodblues1969

Can you please define your idea of the Fantom's nicely packed workstation features?
What is so nice about a workstation that has a total of 128 tracks,when about 112 or so of those tracks are useless,since no workstation on earth has the memory or processing power to support that many tracks all at once?
It's a terrible waste of resource and seriously...only a half million dollar studio recording the Phil Harmonic Orchestra,would make use of that many tracks.

By the way...the Fantoms are notorious for their samplers having freezing issues-a feature of which,is not so nice either.

Apparently, for example, you can have a drum kit with each kick, snare, etc. having its own track for better control ...

And as far as smaler freezing, I've NEVER experienced that on my Fantom X ...

[skyy38]

It is now quite some time later and Korg just announced their New Krome Workstation Keyboard, so, the workstation concept stubbornly moves on.But now, thanks in part to Casio, it's an economically feasible concept for more people than ever before.

When the Jupiter 80 first came out , without a sequencer or workstation capabilities, I 've always thought that the next logical and practical move would BE a workstation keyboard. Really, the workstation is NOT dead, nor will it be for quite some time to come, because it's the one (and I do mean ONE) thing you can toss in a case and take it anywhere that you need to go.

The possibilities of Supernatural sounds always held a fascination for me, particularly in the acoustic/orchestral department. I thought that it would be somewhat of a crime if Roland didn't make a WSK featuring these sounds. That and the fact that the Jupiter 80 was able to stack virtually unlimited combi's without any "note stealing" would make it a natural for a WSK. No more bragging about 128 poly, when, essentially, in the face of multi-layered tones, it was rendered useless after sequencing a few tracks.

The Jupiter 80 was the beginning of a logical morphing into a workstation keyboard. All Roland needs to do, is execute the idea and in the face of the Korg Krome, price it down to the reach of the average musicians budget.

One thing that Roland does NOT need to do, is make a WSK that relies too heavily on "bells and whistles"-about half of which should be eliminated just because they add nothing but cost. No, this should literally be a "Musicians Workstation"-something that you don't need a degree from MIT in order to operate. After all of this time, fun shouldn't be a technical thing-it should be fun.

What are all musicians after when we produce music? It's easy to forget, but the principles are quite simple. We just need in instrument that lets us lay down signal-MIDI and Audio- and allows us to manipulate those signals into a pleasing musical form. We don't need a keyboard that can start our coffee for us or monitor our houses-we have tools for that already. Simple isn't it? Simplicity doesn't need a whole lot-it just needs enough. That means that this WSK does NOT have to be a "World-Beater" nor a "Be All, End All" device. All it needs to be, is something that lets musicians do what they do best-make music.

[Diametro]

Still looking to eventually replace my Fantom-X ... And still nothing on the market seems like a worthwhile step up ...

[flat earth]

Originally Posted by Diametro

Still looking to eventually replace my Fantom-X ... And still nothing on the market seems like a worthwhile step up ...

I'm no workstation fanatic, but bar the build quality, the Kronos and the latest Kurz PC** would seem to be a big step up from the Fantom X. (I played one, and agree, its a very well built, tactile board, so I can see your dissapointment in Kronos build quality).

But I also think Roland would have to make a very big 'upgrade' to the JP80 platform to make it a competing workstation. Just adding a decent sequencer and sampler to whats already there, imo, would still be way behind the features of Kronos imho. I'm very suspicious of 'their' legacy collection as well. I'm interested to see if they are 'proper' serparate fully fledged softsynths a la Korgs complex (and very good) efforts.

We shall see...

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by flat earth

I'm no workstation fanatic, but bar the build quality, the Kronos and the latest Kurz PC** would seem to be a big step up from the Fantom X. (I played one, and agree, its a very well built, tactile board, so I can see your dissapointment in Kronos build quality).

I've played the Kurz boards and Kronos as well and respectfully disagree ... While there are nice sounds in there, there was nothing to me that represented a quantum leap in sound quality or design there, especially when viewed as sounds that will exist in a mix ... Add to that Kronos is an expensive horror when it comes to the screen and various bits and pieces that fall behind even my $400 Casio XW-P1 ... And I will never buy a Kurz until they update that 90s style display or I find a nice example for $700 used and even then ...

To me, Fantom-X with its individually sampled four velocity layers per key still has one of the liveliest grand pianos to play ... and most everything about is just about right ... (not enough insert effects -- as good and flexible as they are -- and slow USB 1.0 read/write times are its main downfall these days) ...

Personally, I think a lot of people who judge Fan-X soundset are doing so against the stock sounds and not with a maxed out SRX expanded one ...

(It's my anecdotal observation that the VAST -- no workstation pun intended -- majority of Fantom-X's out there have no SRX cards installed or maybe one or two at best ... It's a fairly expensive proposition maxxing an X out ... It cost me another at least another $500 dollars or so ...)

Those stocks sounds, for better or worse, were meant to supplement an SRX-enhanced soundset ... There are shockingly few of the "classic" sounds one would expect in a workstation or found in the SRX cards ... If one judges the soundset of an unexpanded Fan-X, it's easy to find it not as useful as a comparable Motif or Triton ...

[Diametro]

Originally Posted by flat earth

But I also think Roland would have to make a very big 'upgrade' to the JP80 platform to make it a competing workstation. Just adding a decent sequencer and sampler to whats already there, imo, would still be way behind the features of Kronos imho. I'm very suspicious of 'their' legacy collection as well. I'm interested to see if they are 'proper' serparate fully fledged softsynths a la Korgs complex (and very good) efforts.

We shall see...

Personally, I think the workstation concept as we know it is somewhat outdated or broken ...

With the advent of tablet computing and computer integration, it makes less and less sense to put sequencer and sampling functions under the hood of a workstation, making it more expensive and requiring the control surface to become littered with various related button$ ...

My ideal modern workstation would incorporate a kick-ass sound engine with an interface that favored live performance and real-time manipulation of sound parameters ... A tablet would reside on the side and add sequencer and sampling functions ...

The benefit of this would be a lower price and more controls dedicated to live use ... Sequencing and sampling are obviously pre-gig/studio functions and don't need physical controllers ... An optional touchscreen tablet interface would more than suffice ...



Casio with its XW line, pictured above with iPad2 running iMS-20 and XW-P1 through Alesis ioDock, is obviously heading in this direction and I think it's brilliant ... The XW-P1 does have TWO performance oriented sequencers (a step sequencer and a phrase sequencer) that I think is more in line with what I want an integrated workstation to feature ...

Roland is also exploring this territory with its iPad interfaces for Jupiter-50 ...

The current problem is that tablets -- and iPad in particular -- do not have stellar input/output options ...

[flat earth]

Originally Posted by Diametro

I've played the Kurz boards and Kronos as well and respectfully disagree ...

Sorry D, I was really talking about features. (Kronos has ALOT of those) I do agree about the sound though. I think its come to a point where they can't improve much further on sound quality alone. I've heard SRX sounds, and tbh, they sound pretty much as good as anything recent.

It just comes down to personal preference of the sample used these days. ie sure, a software Pianotec piano sample is technically fantastic, but the Yamaha Motif piano (to my ears), sounds more playable.

[skyy38]

Again, when manufacturers come out with the "Mega Keyboard", with the "Mega Features" it also has a "Mega-Price" attached to it.

I say, separate the producer from the performer, make gear that is specific to each mission without any unwanted "extras" and make (most) everybody happy with lower prices all around.

Does a performer REALLY need a sequencer if he's playing live? Don't think so. Does a producer necessarily need or even *want* sampling or expansion capabilities? I've done my thing over a number of years without either and I've been getting along pretty well.

I get increasingly tired of the "next big thing" when it turns out less a musical instrument and more a technological nightmare. Korg in particular, excels at this, because, after all of this time, they STILL can't get orchestral sounds right! Kronos is just the latest example of this-They seem to have forgotten that the FIRST reason to buy ANY keyboard is because of the way it sounds, not because of the sheer number of "features", especially features that get in the way of creativity....